Talk:La Marseillaise

An event in this article is a April 24 selected anniversary (may be in HTML comment)

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Order of the verses

I found much more pages in which the last verse begins with Nous entrerons than with Amour sacré. Araña de níquel 01:23, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

7th Nous entrerons (Couplet des enfants)

French President website Page cited in the article

france.diplomatie.fr Foreign affairs website Site cited in the article; same site as http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/

http://www.cndp.fr/actualites/question/marseillaise/suite.htm

http://www.lamarseillaise.info/

http://spaces.msn.com/members/temps/Blog/cns!1psctZp9-QIfTsdVM5w_QcNg!287.entry

http://geogate.geographie.uni-marburg.de/parser/parser.php?file=/deuframat/francais/2/2_3/sieburg/kap_6.htm

http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/snd/lamarseillaise.html

http://www.adminet.com/marseillaise.html (cited in the article; verses are numbered from 0 to 6).

eo:Marseljezo

es:La Marsellesa

et:Marseljees

it:La Marsellaise

ja:フランスの国歌

pt:A Marselhesa

ru:Марсельеза

wikisource:La Marseillaise

7th Amour sacré

http://www.marseillaise.org/english/francais.html (site cited in the article).

lb:La Marseillaise

Comments

The only site you ever needed to confirm this was http://www.elysee.fr/elysee/francais/les_symboles_de_la_republique/la_marseillaise/la_marseillaise.21106.html. —Cantus…☎ 01:54, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

• I would say that the official site of the presidency of the republic is as definitive as it gets, so I believe we should revert to the old order. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:10, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

• But the presidency is with the majority, so the original order is wrong. Araña de níquel 15:00, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Reliability of Wikipedia

The wrong order was on Wikipedia from 22-Apr-2002 to 10-Apr-2005. Almost 3 years. It seems it's true that Wikipedia is not reliable.

Any comments?

Araña de níquel 15:22, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Nobody's perfect. When you consult sveral reputable source on some subjects you will sometimes discover some serious factual errors in some, it happened to me recently. Ericd 20:28, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

April 25th?

"La Marseillaise" is a song written and composed by Claude Joseph Rouget de Lisle at Strasbourg on April 25, 1792.

Was it written in a single day? Or released on that day? --Bz2 19:40, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think he wrote it in a single night. However this might be a legend. Ericd 20:20, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Xenophoby

I doubt that xenophoby is a big polemic. Could anybody give me any reliable source about this subject ? If you look at the lyrics, i guess two sentences will be pointed out: "What! These foreign cohorts!" and "Let impure blood Soak the furrows". They first one refer to the geopolitic situation in 1792, when La Marseillaise as written. A lot of european monarchy had declare war to France at this time and the "foreign cohorts" are refering to their armies marching to conquer France. The "impure blood" refers to the aristocrat bloo which was supposed to be blue. It symbolised the inegality of the Ancien Régime. If you look at the historic situation in France in 1792, still during the Revolution, and if you consider La Marseillaise as a song representative of this situation, as it should be, you can not assert any xenophoby in the lyrics.

You're right. But the context has changed and the polemic was a fact. However the accession of Jean-Marie Le Pen to the second turn of presidential election in 2002 made that many people gave the lyrics their "original sense" as would have said Serge Gainsbourg. You can include your coments in the article. Ericd 17:19, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That's what i'll do after having removed the english mistakes. Thanks

Nos bras / Vos bras

An anonymous has recently changed "Ils viennent jusque dans vos bras" ("They are coming into your midst") into "Ils viennent jusque dans nos bras" ("They are coming into our midst"). Though official executions of the Marseillaise will read "your", the song is often popularly sung with "our". It might be interesting to leave this as a footnote of some sort... Rama 07:36, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

• Perfectly glad to see a footnote, but clearly the official version is authoritative. -- Jmabel | Talk 15:36, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

"La Carrière"

Interestingly, the expression "la Carrière" (often with a capital C) means a career in diplomacy; it might be worthwhile mentioning that here, it is not this expression which is used... I don't know how you'd integrate it :p Rama 08:20, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

I think it's a career in the army here. Ericd 08:59, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

yes it is. I just say that the way they say it clashed with another expression. Rama 09:09, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Original Title

Its original name is "Chant de guerre de l'Armée du Rhin" ("Marching Song of the Rhine Army).

I don't know French, but doesn't "guerre" mean "war"? Where does "marching" come from? Josh Cherry 13:44, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Litterally, Chant de guerre de l'Armée du Rhin translates into Song of war of the Rhine Army. The sort of the song you sing while marching toward a battle. "Marching song" in English. Rama 14:06, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Hornblower

Recent addition:

The song featured in the 1999 Hornblower film "The Frogs and the Lobsters", as it was sung by French villagers in defiance to the Colonel Moncoutant who had returned as part of an attempted Royalist invasion of France.

Is this really important enough to deserve a mention in an article about a national anthem? The Abel Gance film mentioned is easily one of the 100 most important French films of all time, and arguably one of the 10 most important French films of all time, so it belongs. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:54, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Similarly, Victory (movie). -- Jmabel | Talk 08:23, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

"Impure blood"

Im sorry but I think the current explanation in the article is "original researchish". Let's back this up, esp. since the author himself was a royalist. Ksenon 11:28, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Here is at least one claim (not something I'd consider citable) that it was a deliberate reversal of the nobility considering the blood of the people impure. If a citable discussion of this can be found on line, it's going to take some time, more than the few minutes I'm snatching right now in the middle of a workday. Yes, we could use a much better citation on this. Do keep in mind, though, that at that time one could be royalist but anti-noble. More than today, the royals were considered a class apart from the noblility. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:19, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

This was further changed to something clearly false, so I have cut it:

In fact, the "impure blood" which is subject to controversy, is not the blood of foreigners, but the blood of common people in contrast to the "sang bleu", the "blue blood" of the aristocrat.

If this is to be taken seriously, the singers of the Marseillaise would have to view the commoners as their enemies! Folks, this was not the anthem of the royalist nobility! - Jmabel | Talk 02:01, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if the "impure blood" actually refers to the blood of common people in contrast to the aritocratic blood but if it does, it probably means somthing like "we'll fight for freedom, shall we die from it" I'm not sure that the "impure blood" actually refers to the blood of common people though. I always thought it was to be taken with a somehow sarcastic tone, meaning that the blood of those privileged who'd always clamed to be noble is actually "impure".

Anarchronism?

In 1882, Pyotr Tchaikovsky used extensive quotes from the Marseillaise to represent the invading French army in his 1812 Overture. This was an anachronism, as the Marseillaise was the French anthem in Tchaikovsky's day, but not Napoleon's.

Is this correct? La Marseillaise was the anthem (official or otherwise) during the Revolution, but not under Napoleon? What was used then? 71.156.15.166 20:37, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

See [1]. Apparently there were a couple of contenders (including the Marseillaise) but no generally accepted national anthem. - Jmabel | Talk 06:34, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

So how is an anachronism? It was the anthem before Napoleon, it was the anthem after but there was no official anthem during, where is the against time, surely it is something that represents France otherwise I doubt it would of become the official anthem again in 1830 and 1879. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 (talk) 21:16, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

i thought napoleon had it banned...--camr ^nag 22:24, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

It's an anchronism in exactly the same way as painting a picture of George Washington with a U.S. flag in the background containing 50 stars. The 50 star version is the current version, but it didn't apply in Washington's time. La Marseillaise was the anthem before Napoleon's time, and again later, but not at the time he was invading Russia. Yes, it can be used as a general reference for France at any time, even for a time before the anthem was even composed - and that's OK as far as it goes - but using it in association with specific events that happened when La Marseillaise was not the legal anthem is by definition an anachronism. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:44, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Other sections?

How do I link to the article like that: Belarusian Marseillaise? Should the new section be created, possibly? ---Yury Tarasievich 11:04, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand: as to how to link, from a technical point of view you just did it in your question. Could you try rewording this to explain what you are trying to do? - Jmabel | Talk 05:01, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Right, that was bit of a clumsy wording... I'd like to link the article on Belarusian Marseillaise here. What's the appropriate section to do this? Perhaps, a new section would be needed for that, named, e.g., "Marseillaise in other languages/cultures"? ---Yury Tarasievich 07:29, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Probably just a "See also" section immediately before "External links" - Jmabel | Talk 19:59, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Done. Looks somehow not right, though. What do you think? ---Yury Tarasievich 12:49, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Patrie

Is "motherland" a proper translation of Patrie? It comes from the Latin patria, from pater (father), meaning fatherland. It is related to the French pére (father), and the English patriarch. Anyway, I think "fatherland" is the right translation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lostcaesar (talk • contribs) 1 July 2006.

I agree with you on the parallel etymology, though "fatherland" in English has a very German connotation. The fact that we have no noun for a country derived from this Latin root makes it tricky. Other words off of the root—"patriot", "patriotism"—don't connect for an English speaker to "fatherland" but to "country". - Jmabel | Talk 20:04, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Not a place for anti-French vandalism

I found a link to an "unofficial" anthem and it was about a crapper song. This is highly inappropriate for an encyclopedia article on national anthems. Bona Fides 13:58, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that the intention was "anti-French". That is a well known 'rugby-song' so its inclusion could very reasonably be said to be noteworthy, and therefore worth inclusion in the section of this article under 'unofficial versions'. Therefore I dispute with the 'highly inappropriate' sentiment re encyclopaedic inclusion. Whether or not the inclusion would cause offence is another matter - but the purpose of encyclopaedae is to record the noteworthy, irrespective of perceptions of 'appropriateness'. Looking back at the removed link, it was from a well known (amongst French rugby circles) French language website [2], which, I think, does incline it to be included in respect of noteworthyness, rather than removed based on perceptions of appropriateness. This is not an excuse to include wanton abuse, of course, but there is a line between when something that may be seen by some to be abusive, and others to be merely 'fun'. And if the 'fun' becomes widely known, then it becomes noteworthy. What 'widely known' means is, of course, another question, but there is plenty in Wikipedia that is of minimal noteworthyness. I myself, merely write this as I think the reason for removal appears rather knee-jerk (that is how it is read), whereas those who know something of rugby (such as myself) will know otherwise. I vote for re-inclusion of the said removed reference - although its reinstatement could be better accompanied with a more descriptive reason for its inclusion, to prevent the appearance of it being gratuitous abuse. For those looking for the link, see here, and look for 'M' and "en Anglais". Those with opinions on this issue (either way) might also care to look at the football chant article --Phillip Fung 04:00, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Arabic Version La Marseillaise

• Site : http://ar.wikipedia.org/ (Arabic Wikipedia)
• korean talk: 아랍어 발음을 잘 알고 있는 분이 계시면 음역을 해 주세요. 부탁드립니다.

انهضوا يا أطفال أرض أجدادنا,

اليوم وصل لنا المجد!

الذي خلصنا من الإستبداد

و الذي رفع رايته المدمّاة،

هل تسمع في الحقول

عواء هؤلاء الجنود المفزعين؟

الذين يأتون إلى وطنك

لحزّ حناجر أبنائك وأقرانك!

هيا إلى الأسلحة، أيها المواطنون!

شكّلوا كتائبكم!

دعونا نزحف، دعونا نزحف!

ربما تتلوث دمائنا

هيا أيها المواطن إنقع شقوق حقولنا!

ماذا يعني هذا الحشد من العبيد،

الخونة، وهم يخططون الى الغدر بالملوك؟

لمن هذه السلاسل الحقيرة

هذه الحديد الطويل المحضّر؟

للفرنسيون، لنا، آه! ياله من غضب,

يجب على من يغضب أن يثير!

نحن سوف ندمر خططهم

وسنرجعهم إلى العبودية القديمة!

vما هذا! ما هي هذه المجموعات الأجنبية!

هل يشرّعون القوانين في بيوتنا!

ما هذا! ما هي هذه الكتائب الجشعة

هل يريدون قتل مقاتلونا الشجعان الفخورين!

الملك الجيد! يأتي لنا بالأيدي المقيّدة

حاجبنا يختبأ تحت النيران

الطغاة الحقراء يصبحون,

سادة قدرنا!

إرتعدوا، أيها المستبدون والخونة

هذا هو خزيّ كل الرجال الجيدون،

إرتعدي! أيتها المخططات القاتلة

سيستلمون فقط جائزتهم,

ولكن جنودنا كلها ضدك

إذا سقط أبطالنا الشباب،

ستحمل لنا الأرض شباباً جديداً,

نحن مستعدون لخوض المعركة ضدك!

الفرنسيون، هم المحاربون الشهماء

إحمل أو إمنع ضرباتك!

أنقذ هؤلاء الضحايا الحزينين

لأنهم قد يأسفون لحمل السلاح ضدّنا،

لكن ليس هؤلاء الطغاة الداميين،

هؤلاء متواطئين بويلٍ،

كلّ هذه النمور القاسية

ستمزّق العدو خارج صدور أمهاتهم!

الحبّ الوطني المقدّس

يتقدّم و يدعم أسلحتنا الإنتقامية

الحريّة، الحريّة العزيزة،

قاومي أيتها الحرية مع مدافعيك

تحت أعلامنا، سنكافئ بالنصر

عجلي أيتها الحرية بزئيركِ الرجالي

لي يكون أعدائكِ, في أنفاسهم الأخيرة

إشهدي على نصرنا ومجدنا!

نحن سندخل ميدان المعركة

عندما لن يكون شيوخنا هناك,

هناك سوف نجد غبارهم

وعلامة امتيازهم.

لن يمنعنا حزننا على غبارهم

من الإشتراك في توابيتهم،

سيكون عندنا الفخر الرفيع

للإنتقام لهم أو لإتباعهم!

تمّ الاسترجاع من

Restricted link

A link to a restricted New York Times article was recently added as a reference. Would someone who has access to this please follow it and provide a proper citation (article name, author, date, page)? Thanks. - Jmabel | Talk 02:58, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

...and some propositions have been made to change the anthem or the lyrics. citation 3... vote for removal. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.126.76.75 (talk • contribs) 7 March 2007.

lot of approximations

I think that there is a lot of aproximations in the translation:

Contre nous de la tyrannie	Against us, tyranny (approximative)
L'étendard sanglant est levé (bis)	Has raised its bloodied banner (repeat)

The ordened sentence in french is imo : « L'étendart sanglant de la tyranie est levé contre nous »

"The bloodied banner of tyrany is raised against us". After this, i don't have the skills for make it sound more "tricky" like it is in the french version.

The accurate English translation would be something like Free us from tyranny. The bloodied banner has been raised (repeat) (2 seperate sentences) Now in English it doesn't sound as good if you put it this way, but it really is more accurate because it keeps the ambiguity of the French version: you can't tell if the bloodied banner has been raised by tyranny against us, or if WE have raised the bloodied banner; and are confident that this banner which is ours shall free us from tyranny. which means that we've already started to fight against tyranny "hence the bloodied banner: we lost our blood fighting tyranny" I always thought that anyway, I was bemused when I read the English version (I thought : all these days, was it what it actually meant?) I don't think so after all.

C'est nous qu'on ose méditer

It is us they dare plan

I'm not sure here because i'm not sure of the meaning of "plan" here. But méditer is an old french works which don't mean the same thing today (méditer meant « médire » : "to slander " i think, and today it mean méditer like buddhist méditation).

Feraient la loi dans nos foyers!

They would make laws in our homes!

« Faire la loi » in french don't mean "make laws" (« faire les lois »). In french when you say that someone « fait la loi », it means that he is the "mastah", a stupid leader in a way. It sounds disparaging for the ruler

Tremblez, tyrans et vous perfides

Tremble, tyrants and traitors

Really aproximative imo.

Épargnez ces tristes victimes

Spare these sad victims

Here it is too litteral : « triste » don't have the meaning of "sad" here.

À regret s'armant contre nous (bis)

That they may regret taking up arms against us (repeat)

Same : « À regret » don't mean "they may regret" imo.

Mais ces despotes sanguinaires

But not these bloody despots

"bloody" means "damned" in english ? "Bloody" means really "bloody" (in the meaning of pouring blood) in french.

Amour sacré de la Patrie,

Sacred patriotic love,

« Patriotique » and « De la Patrie » don't really have the same meaning, but well, it's a detail.

Cordialy

-- Meithal 23:10, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Franco-Russian rapprochement

Should any mention be made of the occasion on which this song was played in Russia in front of the reactionary czar Alexandr III to celebrate the new Franco-Russian alliance/rapprochement? Brutannica 02:52, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Citations

In the article, a blind link to http://select.nytimes.com/search/restricted/article?res=F10612F9345E0C768CDDAA0894DA494D81 is given as a citation. This is a link to a site that requires an account and a login. Would someone who has access please modify this to a citation that gives article name, authorship, and date so that people can access it by other means (for example, through the Times index)? - Jmabel | Talk 04:30, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

...and some propositions have been made to change the anthem or the lyrics. citation 3... vote for removal. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.126.76.75 (talk • contribs) 7 March 2007.

Theme music from an old computer game? Is this notable information?

I'd suggest removing this... hardly a notable usage of a national anthem, unless it created significant controversy:

Glass Joe from Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!!, a Nintendo Entertainment System boxing game, uses part of the song as his ring theme.

Mtford 23:06, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

MP3 file

I don't like the version in the MP3 file linked to from this page. Isn't La Marseillaise supposed to be a lower tempo than that? 87.112.1.242 11:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

adapted from Viotti?

It has been recently added that the music was adapted from a work by Viotti. However, this work is titled "variazioni sulla marsigliese" (indicating that it is based on the Marseillaise, rather than the contrary). I was not able to find any other reference giving the same date of 1784. Incidentally, Viotti was in France during this period (1784 and 1792); he has probably been exposed to the theme and played around it. Besides, the Mozart connection is very well documented. Should we suppress this reference?--Toitoine 07:57, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Fatherland?

In German, fatherland is spelled with a capital letter and on Sarkozy's presidential site 'Patrie' is translated as 'motherland', (a good example of Jewish paranoia).

Americans sing 'My country, 'tis of thee' and not 'My fatherland (or motherland) 'tis of thee.' Not 'Fatherland', not 'motherland', but 'our country'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.172.191.140 (talk) 17:56, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

So what if the American anthem has different words? That's different song. "Our country" sounds weird as a translation of "la Patrie" and should only be used if it fits the meter better.

If the French presidential site translates it as "motherland", that's because that's actually a good translation. We do use "motherland" and "mother country" in English. That's why the German "fatherland" sounds so harsh to our ears. It's used in English to convey the connotations that the German has. But "patrie" has the same etymology so maybe we should translated it as "fatherland" too?

Does anyone know whether there is a set of English lyrics that are considered official? Because this would settle any arguments. Nick (talk) 12:39, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

About Mireille Mathieu singing La Marseillaise

On July 1, 2008 I allured a certain kind of Wikipedia fanatic (with the remark "Jewish paranoia") and, as expected, the next day he (TFCforever) went into action. He changed

bloodied banner to bloody banner (blimey!)

roar to howling (dehumanization of enemy, facilitating killing of other human being)

march to walk (?)

tainted blood to impure blood (connotes the interdict against intermarriage in Israel and other theocracies)

slaughter to cut the throat (during the kosher slaughter the animal is exsanguinated by cutting its throat)

French army officers to Napoleonic officers

German to Nazi

and we could go on.

He also deleted link to Mireille Mathieu singing La Marseillaise. TFCforever knows nothing about Mireille Mathieu, he does not know French, he does not know about France and, nevertheless, he feels entitled to defile the Marseillaiese with his racist, uninformed, and closed-minded "edits."

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.172.183.140 (talk) 22:52, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

• Good sir, I apologize for this mess I seem to have created. I am utterly confused by the edit, as all I thought I did was to add the sound file (Francia.ogg) from Wikimedia Commons. I was prepping a project for Esperanto Wikipedia (please see eo:Vikipediisto:TFCforever and my contributions) in which I created a number of infoboxes for anthems on which eo wiki has articles. When I found the collection of national anthem audio files on Commons, I noticed that there was a sound file for the French national anthem. I added it to the article and, as can be noticed by the minor edit tag and edit summary, saved it thinking that this was all I had changed, the one addition to the infobox. However, I was careless and did not check the edit summary, so these other changes, which I am unfamiliar with and have no idea what they mean or what they imply, are a complete shock to me. I don't have any idea how they got there and I am shocked and startled by them and what, as you tell me, they imply. You're right, I know nothing about France, can't speak French, etc., etc., so I am reverting my edits and trying to add what I originally intended in the first place without all that strange garbage. I'm sorry for the mess, and I'll have it cleaned up right away. TFCforever (talk) 01:04, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

translation of "patrie"

I have never heard anybody in the U.S. use the word "motherland". The whole image of "enfants de la Patrie" (children of the parent country or whatever) sounds odd to Americans; for us a government is not comparable to a family and calling a government "paternalistic" is usually an insult. Can't we just admit that the concept doesn't translate? And where on earth did the racial slur "Jewish paranoia" come from? CharlesTheBold (talk) 03:48, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

The Jewish paranoia comment

The "Jewish paranoia" comment is related to the fact that Sarkozy's presidential site uses the translation of "la Patrie" as "motherland," despite the obvious Latin root of this expression. Sarkozy, who is Jewish and invariably puts the interests of Israel ahead these of France, shares with other Israel-firsters a dislike of anything with even a minute association with German, at the same time polluting the French language with innumerable Jewish shibboleths.

During his presidential inauguration, Mireille Mathieu also sang La Marseillaise (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0_SLbzbNE0&feature=related). Observe Sarkozy's inappropriate facial expressions, his elliptical pronounciation, and his waving of hands before the end of the French national anthem.

Motherland!

Copied from last time this was discussed:

So what if the American anthem has different words? That's different song. "Our country" sounds weird as a translation of "la Patrie" and should only be used if it fits the meter better.

If the French presidential site translates it as "motherland", that's because that's actually a good translation. We do use "motherland" and "mother country" in English. That's why the German "fatherland" sounds so harsh to our ears. It's used in English to convey the connotations that the German has. But "patrie" has the same etymology so maybe we should translated it as "fatherland" too?

Does anyone know whether there is a set of English lyrics that are considered official? Because this would settle any arguments. Nick (talk) 12:39, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I still think that an official English translation would be best but as no-one has shown us anything official-looking looks like we need to do this ourselves.

I'm still arguing that "Patrie" (especially with that capital) is much stronger than "country". This should be reflected in the translation if possible. It doesn't matter whether you have ever heard someone say "motherland", all that matters is that it's a valid English idiom. If you doubt that, consult a dictionary. Both "motherland" and "fatherland" appear in the OED but motherland is far more common. Thus, the concept does translate pretty easily.

I'm going to change it on the page, change it only if you can find an official version that contradicts this (Presidental website agrees with me. Nick (talk) 12:50, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Lyrics correction

Could a person with a better knowledge of French please review this?--Thanks, Ainlina(box)? 17:07, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

This English translation seems correct to me, except this verse : "La terre en produit de nouveaux, The earth will bear new (ones?)". The earth doesn't simply "carry" new soldiers, it produces them. There's an harvest allegory that we don't find in the translation. The significance is that the national ground "produces", "gives birth" to soldiers...

The word "Patrie", according to its Latin root, should be translated into " Fatherland", because it comes from the Latin word "Pater" who gave the word "père" in French meaning father in English..

Sarkozy is not jewish. His father comes from Hungary and Hungarians are christians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.240.217.100 (talk) 15:06, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

+"Égorger nos fils, nos compagnes", litteraly means "To slit the throats of ours sons and wives".

In the French culture, the noble ones claimed to have an ascent, a genealogy so noble that their blood had become blue, pure. But the révolutionnaires would have reversed this idea by claiming that the endogamic relations between nobles had returned their blood impure.81.240.217.100 (talk) 15:17, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

La Marseillaise
Allons enfants de la Patrie,	Arise, children of the Fatherland,
Le jour de gloire est arrivé !	The day of glory has arrived!
Contre nous de la tyrannie,	Against us, of the tyranny
L'étendard sanglant est levé. (bis)	The bloodied banner is raised. (repeat)
Entendez-vous dans les campagnes	Do you hear in the countryside
Mugir ces féroces soldats ?	The roar of those ferocious soldiers?
Ils viennent jusque dans nos bras	They come right here among us
Égorger nos fils, nos compagnes !	To slaughter our sons and wives!
Aux armes, citoyens !	To arms, citizens!
Formez vos bataillons !	Form your battalions!
Marchons, marchons !	Let's march, let's march!
Qu'un sang impur	May a tainted blood
Abreuve nos sillons !	Soak our furrows!
Aux armes, citoyens !	To arms, citizens!
Formez vos bataillons !	Let us form our battalions!
Marchons, marchons !	Let us march, let us march!
Qu'un sang impur	May their tainted blood
Abreuve nos sillons !	Soak our furrows!
Que veut cette horde d'esclaves,	What does this horde of slaves,
De traîtres, de rois conjurés ?	Of traitors and conspirating kings?
Pour qui ces ignobles entraves	For whom these vile chains
Ces fers dès longtemps préparés ? (bis)	These long-prepared irons? (repeat)
Français, pour nous, ah ! quel outrage,	Frenchmen, for us, ah! What an insult,
Quels transports il doit exciter !	What fury it must arouse!
C'est nous qu'on ose méditer	It is us they dare plan
De rendre à l'antique esclavage !	To return to the old slavery!
Aux armes, citoyens...	To arms, citizens...
Quoi ! des cohortes étrangères	What! These foreign cohorts!
Feraient la loi dans nos foyers !	Would rule our homes!
Quoi ! ces phalanges mercenaires	What! These mercenary phalanxes
Terrasseraient nos fiers guerriers ! (bis)	Would cut down our proud warriors! (repeat)
Grand Dieu ! par des mains enchaînées	Good Lord! By chained hands
Nos fronts sous le joug se ploieraient	Our fronts would yield under the yoke
De vils despotes deviendraient	The vile despots would become
Les maîtres de nos destinées !	The masters of our destinies!
Aux armes, citoyens...	To arms, citizens...
Tremblez, tyrans et vous perfides	Tremble, tyrants and traitors
L'opprobre de tous les partis	The shame of all good men
Tremblez ! vos projets parricides	Tremble! Your parricidal schemes
Vont enfin recevoir leurs prix ! (bis)	Will receive their just reward! (repeat)
Tout est soldat pour vous combattre	Against you, we are all soldiers
S'ils tombent, nos jeunes héros,	If our young heroes fall,
La terre en produit de nouveaux,	The earth will bear new,
Contre vous tout prêts à se battre !	Ready to join the fight against you!
Aux armes, citoyens...	To arms, citizens...
Français, en guerriers magnanimes,	Frenchmen, as magnanimous warriors,
Portez ou retenez vos coups !	Bear or hold back your cuts!
Épargnez ces tristes victimes	Spare these sad victims
À regret s'armant contre nous (bis)	Armed against us against their will (repeat)
Mais ces despotes sanguinaires	But not these blood-thirsty despots
Mais ces complices de Bouillé	These accomplices of Bouillé
Tous ces tigres qui, sans pitié,	All these tigers who mercilessly
Déchirent le sein de leur mère !	Ripped out their mother's breast!
Aux armes, citoyens...	To arms, citizens...
Amour sacré de la Patrie,	Sacred love of the Fatherland,
Conduis, soutiens nos bras vengeurs	Lead and support our avenging arms
Liberté, Liberté chérie,	Liberty, cherished liberty,
Combats avec tes défenseurs ! (bis)	Fight back with your defenders! (repeat)
Sous nos drapeaux que la victoire	Under our flags, let victory
Accoure à tes mâles accents,	Hurry to your manly tone,
Que nos ennemis expirants	So that our enemies, in their last breath,
Voient ton triomphe et notre gloire !	See your triumph and our glory!
Aux armes, citoyens...	To arms, citizens...
(Couplet des enfants)	(Children's Verse)
Nous entrerons dans la carrière	We shall enter the (military) career
Quand nos aînés n'y seront plus	When our elders are no longer there
Nous y trouverons leur poussière	There we shall find their dust
Et la trace de leurs vertus (bis)	And the mark of their virtues (repeat)
Bien moins jaloux de leur survivre	Much less keen to survive them
Que de partager leur cercueil,	As to share their coffins,
Nous aurons le sublime orgueil	We shall have the sublime pride
De les venger ou de les suivre !	Of avenging or following them!
Aux armes, citoyens...	To arms, citizens...

Who was the Composer?

Recently Ignaz Josef Pleyel is named as the true composer. He was the music teacher of Rouge de Lisle when in France, he also accompanied Joseph Haydn during their journey to England, and was much praised by Haydn. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Pleyel —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.178.137.216 (talk) 18:50, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Chinese Version

The other day, I stumbled upon (on youtube) a clip that appeared to be extracted from a film. In this film clip, a group of people sing a Chinese language version of La Marseillaise. The clip can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehkFdOzozQ0&feature=related

I ask the following: -From which film did this clip originate, if any? -If this is from a film, please add that film to the cultural references section.66.27.114.113 (talk) 04:03, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Mozartian antecedent?

I removed the speculated Mozartean antecedent from the "Arrangements". First because its not an arrangement, second because its not cited and third because its facts are mixed up. Its not the "first twelve notes" and its not at the *end* of the first movement.

The relevant moment in the concerto is in the exposition. Following the grand g major dah-dah-dah-DAH cadence of the first theme group and a pause, the second theme group starts in measure 50 with g8 g8 g8 c4 c4 d4 d4 e-flat4 [3]. It is quite similar. The main difference is that in the Marsailles the leading three notes are dotted and the last note would be a bit higher (high-g in this key). Steinberg does note that it does remind listeners of the as yet unwritten Marseillaise[4] but Flothius states that its unlikely that Rouget de L'Isle knew the concerto.[5].

Documenting the issue here on the talk page. Yes, there are similarities that have been recognized by many, but its also a very basic tune (at least where it overlaps with the concerto). I'll leave it to editors here judge if this antecedent is worth mentioning. DavidRF (talk) 17:46, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Music score

I was recently told that Maestro Felipe took the score of La Marsillaise and literally turned it upside down re-writting the score and making a few corrections and submitted it as his own, to be used as the National Anthem of the Philippines (wiki link) Lupang Hinirang. Does anyone know if there is any truth to this?Boronia15 (talk) 14:35, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Motherland/Fatherland

Reviving this discussion... in English, both words are used. However, I think motherland is the one that most closely matches the meaning intended. Fatherland tends to be used as a translation of the German Vaterland and, when used, generally has connotations of the bad kind of nationalism. If a native speaker wants to express the idea of the 'parent country' in the way intended by Patrie, they will say motherland.

It's difficult, because neither word is really used very often, but I feel translating Patrie as fatherland adds emotional layers to the English that are not in the original French.

And the shared roots of the words seem fairly irrelevant. 89.168.19.118 (talk) 12:16, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't think we should worry too much about emotional layers as they are difficult to quantify. In any case La Marseillaise is a very strongly-worded song to say the least. Mezigue (talk) 12:24, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

It's true it is strongly-worded, but I think this translation is actually deceptive. Fatherland is not used in English where Patrie is used here; motherland is the right flavour. It's like using abnormal and extraordinary; both mean not normal, but they are not interchangeable. Fatherland doesn't really make sense. Do you actually have an objection to motherland as a translation of Patrie here? If not, I'll change it in a few hours. 89.168.19.118 (talk) 01:54, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Motherland feels too revisionist. Dozens of countries have Fatherland-like expressions for national pride and we're suppose to revise the translation of them because one country's nationalism was the "bad kind"? Isn't that deceptive? This anthem was written in 1792 before the nation with the bad kind of nationalism existed. What do french-english dictionaries say?DavidRF (talk) 02:23, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Revisionist? How is it revisionist to use a word that conveys the meaning of the original, rather than a word that conveys a meaning that was not intended? Dozens of countries have Fatherland like expressions; English uses Motherland where France uses Patrie. Does German have a Motherland-like expression? How would you translate Motherland into German? Wouldn't you just use Vaterland, because that is the word in German that most closely conveys the meaning to German-speakers?

If you want to feel it is closer to the French, why then notice how Patrie is a feminine noun. Notice how French also has the phrase mère patrie which also translates as homeland just as Patrie does. But I feel this is all rather irrelevant. It wouldn't be revisionist to translate dénaturer as distort rather than denature when it refers to facts, even though dénaturer clearly has more roots in common with the word denature. This is because the English word denature doesn't mean the same as the French word dénaturer there, but distort does. Equally, fatherland doesn't mean what the French Patrie means there; the meaning is better reflected in motherland. Dictionaries say it is a feminine noun that translates as homeland, country, motherland, fatherland, etc.

I am a child of my motherland, I speak my mother tongue, and this is the way my mother tongue translates "Allons enfants de la Patrie": "Come, children of the Motherland". Children of the Fatherland is a strange, grating phrase in English that doesn't convey the same meaning; it implies actual children. It is a deceptive translation, because it is doesn't translate the word into a word with the same meaning.

The rest of the translation looks really good as far as I can tell; perhaps the person writing it didn't grow up reading as many old children's books as I did :P Does anyone have any other objections to changing the inaccurate fatherland to the more accurate motherland? 89.168.19.118 (talk) 11:41, 2 July 2009 (UTC)