Talk:Gangsta rap

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Beastie Boys?

Since when can they be considered a heavy influence on your arse?!?! Also, calling Run DMC an influence on gangsta rap yet not mentioning Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five is sort of backwards. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DASA2 (talk • contribs) 21:16, 14 February 2007 (UTC).

Can someone make a good case for the Beastie Boys? They were certainly early and quick onto trends, and I'm pretty sure gangsta rappers took ideas from the Beasties, but (persona aside) how were the the Beasties innovators? Much of License To Ill (for instance) is very similiar to contemporary stuff on Def Jam by other artists.

As for Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five, they are listed, but they're an influence on all rap. It's a bit like listing Chuck Berry as an influence. / edgarde 17:24, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

The main issue here is that Wiki doesn't have an article for hardcore hip hop, which is that hard Run-DMC, early Beastie Boys, Public Enemy style. Hardcore is a definite precursor to gangsta, no doubt. To say they're the same thing, though, is a mistake. / MMBKG 11:47, 18 December 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.86.126.226 (talk)

Yo why you take out the beastie boys theymay not be true "gangstas" but this isnt the gansgta page this is gangsta rap page witch is the genre of music and some of the beastie boys work could be considerd gangsta rap.

Hardly. Beastie Boys have rarely rapped about gangster themes, if ever. -- œ^™ 02:00, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Gang violence, inner city poverty, crime

Should "Gang violence, inner city poverty, crime" remain in Gangsta rap's original major influences list? Obviously these things are lyrical concerns, but I think the "Influences" list is more about musical style influences. / edgarde 17:24, 5 April 2007 (UTC) HECK YEAH THEY SHOULD! Have you ever seen rappers that are not in poverty, crime, the inner city, that don't want to kill people? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.37.27.180 (talk) 05:23, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Ghetto Boys & Gangsta Rap

please explain to me why geto boys aren't listed and why are the artists called "instigators" that reeks of spiteful bias.furthermore why no one brings up the fact that gangsta rap also has socio political undertones to it??? User:Blackdragon6

maybe because they aren't important enough? We can't list every rapper on here after all.

Ghetto Boys are frequently appended to the Early list. I'm no expert, but I think they made a spash at the time — one party line was GB were the real thing and N.W.A were a hype (though I don't wish to debate that point, thanks).

Would someone consider adding a well-sourced mention of Ghetto Boys to the article, preferably emphasizing their influence? I think they're a few months too late to be Early. (I'd be careful about adding anything after N.W.A made it big, roughly 1987-88 1989.) / edg ☺ ★ 14:57, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

This is kind of dumb and emberassing: you put Beastie Boys in there who have absolutely no affiliation with Gangsta Rap yet you are not putting Geto Boys in there. That's pathetic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.237.191.42 (talk) 01:40, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Gangster rap or not?

Some guy around here edited the page because he thinks that Schoolly D is NOT a gangster rapper but rather only a hardcore rapper. I find this claim quite absurd, as Schoolly D's wikipedia article says he pioneered gangster rap, but what do you guys think? This guy seems to think that Ice-T did pioneer gangster rap as he pretty much followed the steps of Schoolly D..

Per above, I agree with categorizing Schoolly under Hardcore rap. I'd like to find the context for that Ice-T quote, but even as quoted on the Schoolly D article, T seems to think he took it over a line Schoolly hadn't quite crossed.

Whatever. I'll say I don't think that part of this article should be changed. — edgarde 09:20, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Wtf is the difference between hardcore rap and gangsta rap? (Its Gangsta not gangster by the way). To me they are the same. 153.18.17.22 21:49, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

The difference between Gangsta Rap and hardcore rap is that Gangsta Rap is usually about life in the projects making references towards drugs and violence also gangsta rappers can make slight political yet aggressive lyrics aimed toward police, now Hardcore Rap has aggressive and bashful lyrics using cuss words but not necessarily discussing about the projects or making refernces towards drugs or violence. a good example of Hardcore Rap would be Chamillionaire and a good example of Gangsta Rap would be let's just say Eazy-E.76.101.122.31 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 00:33, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Kris Kross Reference

Kris Kross is not a gangsta rap group. Any reference to them needs to be removed. Additionally, I removed rappin 4-tay because he was listed under southern gangsta rap when he is from San Francisco. Also, isn't bling bling a subset of rap in itself? I don't think it should be a part of gangsta rap. I suspect most real gangsta rappers would agree with me. 153.18.17.22 21:56, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Request for Improvement

The mafioso rap section's last sentence is incomplete. Can whoever wrote this please complete it. Also, the heading of the following section seems to require format improvements.

Many thanks

Schoolly D lyrics

In his 1984 12" single "Gangster Boogie" [1] he mentions it with "I shot call a ? with my gangster lean"

I think if we're going to have this in the article, we need to find out what the missing word is... - furrykef (Talk at me) 05:00, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Subgenre list

In what's sure to be an ongoing nuisance list, an anonymous editor has added "subgenres" to the infobox, with the following:

• Australian Hip Hop
• Oldschool
• Trash Beat

Am I correct in assuming these are not subgenres of gangsta rap, and should go in another article. "Australian" sets a bad precedent because rap music exists now in many countries, in many languages. (French rap being especially fun for us anglophones.)

Could we agree on a list of subgenres that aren't really side-genres? Or is it better to simply delete that info from the infobox? / edgarde 04:01, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Critical acclaim: No Limit vs. CMR

You wrote:

"Cash Money Records, also based out of New Orleans, had enormous commercial success with a very similar musical style and quantity-over-quality business approach to No Limit but achieved even less critical acclaim and were widely ridiculed."

Most rap fans would tell you that CMR garnered more critical acclaim and less ridicule than No Limit. You should at least change the language to make it more neutral.

both were successful, neither were critically acclaimed. problem solved. Drumac 01:18, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Controversy

Should there be a seperate section on "criticism of gangsta rap", or "controversy" or something like that? Because there is some mentions of criticism of Gangsta rap in the introduction, but there is no section of the article that clearly presents the arguments for and against Gangsta Rap. Heavy Metal Cellist^talk_contribs

A Criticism or Controversy section would need to be kept strictly WP:NPOV, and unsourced material should be removed on sight. Otherwise this section may be dominated by drive-by editorials. / edg ☺ ☭ 20:10, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

this article shouldn't be "for" or "against" gangsta rap. It should explain what it is. This is an encyclopedia after all.

If it's WP:NPOV, then it should be unbiased either for or against it, and should include all opinions on the matter that have been researched. Of course that research has to be done by someone first, or we can't include it. I wouldn't have thought that the kind of people who listen to Gangsta Rap would be that inclined to visit Wikipedia in the first place, so I doubt that many experts on the subject will come forward to do the work, and if they did, they'd hardly be inclined to create a subsection noting criticisms of their beloved music (and I use the term very loosely). But then again, this is solely my opinion, and their maybe someone out their that's willing to do it.
Bennelliott • Talk • Contributions 21:25, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I think that certain versions of both the disscussion and the article have reeked of anti-gangsta rap bias. I dont like that wiki_is_unique (talk) 14:01, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

"Decline"

The reasons given for (and the fact of) the commercial decline of Gansta Rap in the last couple years are dubious, unsupported, and unsourced except for a single Bill O'Reilly (a dedicated scholar of Hip Hop if there ever was one) conjecture. The degree to which Biggie Smalls is responsible for the Virginia Tech massacre, for example, to say nothing of the number of people who actually believe this, and the influence an accusation like that has on your average rap consumer's purchasing choice, isn't considered very critically or neutrally. If there are no objections, I'm going to try and find actual information on the popularity of the genre and rewrite the section. S. Martin 22:46, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Please do, it makes me really uncomfortable that such vague and un-sourced information could be used to justify some perceived decline in gangsta rap. I will see if i can find some information also.CyberMax1024 02:33, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Sugarhill Gang

Should the Sugarhill Gang be mentioned in the "groups who influenced gangsta rap" but were not really gangsta rap?[2] They had the first commercially successful rap song, so I think it's fair to say they had some influence on all rap. They also have been sampled by gangsta rappers such as Notorious B.I.G. and Boogie Down Productions. User:BBonds 21:56, 5 March 2007 (UTC) This comment was actually added 2007-07-25T13:46:50. No explanation for why it is dated March. / edg ☺ ★ 17:24, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Can't deny the Sugarhill Gang were influential, but I don't think we can reasonably list all influences on rap in general as Gangsta rap influences. This should be limited to more direct precedents. / edg ☺ ★ 13:55, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Spice 1 and Sir Jinx on Early gangsta rap artists list ?

Spice 1, whose albums started coming out in 1991, seems too late for Early gangsta rap artists. I think the cutoff date should be when Straight Outta Compton hit big, roughly 1989 (or late 1988).

Sir Jinx is a stub with connections. Is he notable enough to be included in Early gangsta rap artists?

Either one of these artists may be notable enough for a mention in the article, but I think they should be removed from Early gangsta rap artists list. Any objections? / edg ☺ ★ 15:39, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

NPOV regarding criticisms

I understand the criticism being listed,but why is their no counterargument to balance it out??--Blackdragon6

I guess the problem is finding counterarguments. Adverse criticism of gangsta rap is everywhere — a few days ago I heard repeated indictments in a discussion of emergency medicine completely unrelated to music or media. If anyone can provide a few well-sourced and notable counterpoints (that gangsta rap serves a social good, that it's good art, anything good), they could be a great improvements to the article. / edg ☺ ★ 14:52, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

well i have seen SOME decent counter arguments,but of course they was promptly deleted.also the criticism don't seem to be well sourced either--Blackdragon6 19:30, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

If you have counter-criticism and can source it the post in on here, we can sort out the wording, and it can be added to the article. Though personally I can't see a way of justifying glorification of violence, drugs, etc. Though if there is counter-critcism supporting those lifestyle choices then we can think about adding it to the article. MattUK 14:19, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

How about the counter-arguments by the artists themselves? 2Pac constantly defended his music (although he denied his music was gangsta rap). I remember him saying in an interview once that he didn't create these problems, he merely diagnosed it. Ice Cube's retort is, that why are people blaming the problems on gangsta rap, because if those conditions didn't exist, he wouldn't have anything to talk about. I also think its a bit much to say that they are glorifying violence and drugs. For sure, there are some artists that glorify those things. There are also a lot of artists who paint a grim, bleak and hopeless picture with their description of people stuck in lives of crime. Remember, glorifying means they are saying that it is a good idea to do those things and live that life. I don't think most artists are saying that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.3.146.137 (talk) 11:08, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Criticism from within Rap/hip-hop

IMHO, some space should be given to criticism of Gangsta Rap from within the rap world (by groups such as Public Enemy for example), as many Rappers, particularly more politically driven ones, have condemned Gangsta Rap as being detrimental to the black communityIsaac Benaron 20:49, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good. Sourced additions would be very welcome. / edg ☺ ★ 16:05, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

>>>>> I agree. Can we PLEASE add a section including criticisms? I would do it myself but don't know enough on the topic. Gangsta rap is extremely sexist and degrading of women. I am tired of listening to Snoop Dogg state that women should be "put in their place" by getting "slapped in the face." What is wrong with him? Clearly, this is one guy who has major issues with women/is scared of them? and feels the need to insult them. I'm just tired in general of these music videos with half naked women dancing behind fully clothed men. Why don't these music videos ever cater to straight women like me (not to mention gay people of both sexes)? I would *love* to see a video where the woman is powerful, has all her clothes on ,and has hot guys with nice bodies dancing behind her. But in american culture, the women have to be the meat on display and the men get to cover up their tubby stomachs under baggy gangsta clothes. It's not just gangsta rap that does this -- there's plenty of white artists, Jamaican artists, other artists who do it too -- but gangsta rappers are the most vocal about calling women "bitches" and "ho's." Anyway .. I really look forward to the day when I get to see guys treated like sex objects and nothing more, the way women are today. Gangsta rappers should be ashamed of themselves .. but of course, they're not, because the rich (often white) record executives are happy to pay them millions of dollars to spew out hateful trash —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.112.229.28 (talk) 04:30, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

You might notice reading this Talk page that pretty much all criticism, positive or negative, gets objections here. Any criticism added should be sourced and notable. / edg ☺ ☭ 05:19, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Notable names

Snoop Dogg should definatly be mentioned as one of the early and notable rappers in gangsta scene. He already became a rapper in 1991 during the end of NWA. So snoop should be mentioned much more than Biggie. West Coast Ryda 12:26, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I donno who outlined this article but how come he missed Dr._Dre. Dre got eminem n snoopy doggy d rollin, n then came 50. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.142.6.253 (talk) 10:59, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Nah

Since when did Gangsta Rap start in Philly or New York, Gangsta Rap started in only Los Angeles by Ice-T. Mcanmoocanu —Preceding comment was added at 05:10, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Jay-Z is Gangsta rap?

Since when has Jay-Z been considered Gangsta rap? He isn't really that hardcore with lyrics either to be considered either. I think he needs to be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KillerSim187 (talk • contribs) 13:52, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Be our guest. / edg ☺ ☭ 14:18, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Jay-Z is Mofasio Rap which is basically an east-coast version of Gangsta Rap, plus Mofasio Rap is more influenced by the mafia lifestyle other than black neighborhood projects lifestyle.76.101.122.31 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 22:22, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Jay-Z's first album Reasonable Doubt was mafioso rap, which might be considered a seperate category from gangsta rap, but definitely takes its influence from there. But he has since switched to a more pop style. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.3.146.137 (talk) 11:12, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Ice Cube

Ice Cube is one of the main pioneers of gangsta rap and helped popularize and bring it to the mainstream. Why isn't he mentioned more in the article? He should at least be mentioned on his own in the 1st section and should be mentioned on his own too without N.W.A. I know he's mentioned a bit on his own but not nearly enough. Dillon90 (talk) 09:35, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Fictional tv influence

Ali G purports to exemplify gangsta culture in Da Ali G show. He was a gang member of the "West Staines Massiv". Gilgamesh007 (talk) 16:16, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

The "N word"?

Considering that comedian and activist Dick Gregory called his autobiography "Nigger" (back in the 1970s) the use of the infantile phrase seems, well, infantile in a supposedly objective article. The use of this precious euphemism caters to a specific slant on words and the entirely subjective judgment that a particular word is offensive. In a forum such as this, where discussion of those words is central to the purpose of the medium, to avoid use of the word "nigger" amounts to intellectual cowardice.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.77.151.18 (talk) 20:45, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Ice-T's first song

Although Ice-T considers 6 n the mornin to be his first gangsta song, I think that The Coldest Rap introduces many of the themes. Listen here: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LTyxBSKMNDo Then note:

• If you go to 1:33 and press play, he talks about doing something with a sawed-off shotgun
• If you go to 2:45 and press play, you can hear the words "pimp", "playa", "ho" in quick succession.

I would add a sentence about the song to the article now, but I presume that this YouTube video is not a satisfactory reference, and I cannot find the lyrics to this song, probably because it is so old. Epa101 (talk) 19:07, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Changes to Notable artists list

The long-standing section Early gangsta rap artists was changed to Early Gangsta Rap Artists (Mainly West Coast), necessitating (in someone's mind) a new list East Coast Gangsta and Hardcore Rap Artists (when the "Mainly West Coast" edit could simply have been reverted), until the section was re-retitled as Gangsta Rap Artists. These are two completely undiscussed and (in my opinion) terrible ideas.

Listing "early" with a cutoff date (of whenever Straight Outta Compton broke) makes a list that is reasonably easy to define and limit. As discussed previously on this Talk page (and repeatedly in the Edit history), a general list of artists will grow like a tumor. Long, unmanageable lists make this article less readable, and are prone to incessant edit warring. Such lists are seldom insightful, and waste effort that could go into developing a good article.

East Coast gangsta artists and so forth should be discussed in the article body, but not kept as a list in this article. A separate list article, would be a good place for such.

I'd like to restore the Notable artists section to this version. If anyone wants to start List of gangsta rap artists, we can copy in what was here, and let those who want to contribute to that article hammer it out there. Any objections? / edg ☺ ☭ 13:22, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

If you want to move the list to it's own page, I'm fine with that. But do not remove sources from the article and replace them with OR. 66.222.227.115 (talk) 02:08, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Restored with sources retained; new list is moved to new article List of gangsta rap artists. / edg ☺ ☭ 12:22, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Use of term African American in Introduction

'Some commentators (for example, Spike Lee in his satirical film Bamboozled) have criticized it as analogous to black minstrel shows and blackface performance, in which performers – both black and white – were made up to look African American, and acted in a stereotypically uncultured and ignorant manner for the entertainment of audiences.'

As black minstrels groups were formed in other countries as well as the USA, then the term African American is incorrect and is racist i.e. assuming all peoples of african descent currently not living in the African continent are American. It should be changed to "African Descent". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.137.63.86 (talk) 14:29, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with File:Bdp1.jpg

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Redirect

Someone recently redirected hardcore hip hop to this article. It'd be good if anyone could comment at Talk:Hardcore hip hop#Redirect. Thanks, Spellcast (talk) 01:07, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Mafioso Rap

If you're talking about Mafioso Rap, shouldn't Rick Ross be included? His lyrics as well as videos, and generally his image is of a Mafia-"Boss", and didn't he claim that he ran the biggest drug cartel in Miami? --Daondo (talk) 22:47, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Negativity

Tests done in the area of applied kinesiology comparing various forms of music reveal that rap music, gangsta rap in particular, is the most negative of all possible music genres. But I don't need AK to tell me that. If you listen carefully, some of the lyrics have the singers admit they committed murder and given the long criminal records of some of the performers, I would not be surprised if genuine murders did happen. Rap is the worst thing that ever happened to music.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.107.239.233 (talk • contribs) 20 September 2009, 09:18 (UTCP (UTC)

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. And please don't bring chiropractic disputes here. / edg ☺ ☭ 15:29, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Please keep your comments focused on improving the article. You may want to review How to use article talk pages and WP:NOTOPINION. œ^™ 21:18, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

What is extraordinary about the claims? Your article mentions controversy and the article would be more objective if it actually admitted the criminal records of rap artists like DMX, the Wu-Tang Clan and Snoop Dog to name a few. No need to hide rap's true colors. These records and skirmish with the police is the best free PR these guys can get! You already have the links in wikipedia. If you're talking aesthetic, what is there to prove? Why are we burdened with "extraordinary proof". The rappers do what they want without it. We can do likewise.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.71.55.235 (talk) 12:27, September 22, 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles are not for PR. This article is about gansta rap, and I can see how mentioning that some gangsta rappers have criminal records is relevant to this article, but because of WP:BLP policy you must cite reliable sources that back it up if you want to include this information. -- œ^™ 19:43, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

If so then edg has better things to do than create bad and inflammatory PR by insulting expressed opinions. As for reliable sources, I already provided wikipedia links. If wikipedia links aren't reliable sources for you, what is? Just follow the wikipedia links I gave and anyone can get a description of the skirmishes between these rappers and the law. I can make the links more precise by zeroing on the actual description if you prefer. You are right that they are relevant because that particular theme is paramount in their music. So I gather I can be bold and amend the article with the understanding that such links should be provided? Green light on this one? As for edg, he needs to make up his mind: you either embrace evil or you don't. If it's the latter, the article HAS to be factual and objective without taking sides. If it's the former - well hey! - (and it looks like he is a fan) don't expect Queensbury rules not to apply to the rappers (and their fans) while the rest of us (including the police) have to play by them.

• If you honestly think that listening to a song is "embracing evil" you probably shouldn't be editing this article at all, as you clearly will have difficulty maintaining a neutral point of view. The fact is that although many of these artists make songs describing acts of crime and violence, most of it is just stuff they made up to sell albums, and all the negative attention they get for it serves only to boost their record sales. Sure, Eazy-E was a drug dealer, and Ice-T was a gang banger and a pimp, but neither of them were ever convicted of any of the hundreds of murders described in their music. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:39, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
• Really.. you never heard of the term "studio gangster"?? And no, other Wikipedia links are not reliable sources, you can't use Wikipedia as reference to itself! Please be sure to read and understand WP:Verifiability policy and what constitutes a reliable source before making any edits. -- œ^™ 02:00, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

You exaggerate. How the devil would you know what these rappers have actually done or not done anyway? Let's not limit ourselves to drug-related offenses: E.g. rappers C-murder and Mac Minister were convicted of murder (hey! now there's a rhyme and song for you!). You're making gratitious assumptions. If I amend the current article, everyone is free to examine and edit if need be. If I write something outrageous, of course, it will be removed. There is a forum here. Where does it say the article should be written only by fans? If I stick to statements backup up by references i.e. crimes that reached convictions, stick to the facts, how can it be faulted? I make no pretense at being able to convince you or the rappers. It's not that you need more convinction. Actually some rappers only need one convinction, about 5 to 10 years :-) :-)

Also what you are claiming about wikipedia articles not using other wikipedia articles is very odd because (i) these articles are often written by different people and so it's not a reference to itself and (ii) as a matter of fact, hyperlinks with cross-referencing to other wikipedia articles is actually encouraged! But if you prefer, I can avoid the hyperlink and just provide the actual external reference used in that other wikipedia article even it means duplication of the said reference within wikipedia (although that duplication of reference is just dumb). Criminal records can be found out anyway. I am puzzled at the lack of - how shall I put it? - "consistency" within the comments I have seen. If eminem can write songs expressing desire to kill his mother, and that is ok with you, then what on earth is wrong with my expressing a desire, in a song, or even a blog, to put pistol next to Snoop Dog's head and force him to listen to endless recordings of Lawrence Welk?  :-)  :-)