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This article was nominated for deletion on 6 November 2008. The result of the discussion was keep.

Page Move

The current title of this page is misleading. To say "Slavery of Iran" suggest that Iran, or its people, were enslaved. But in fact the article is about historical periods where Iran enslaved others. Better titles would be something like "Slavery in Iran" or "History of Iranian Slavery". --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 13:10, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It appears this was done while keeping a redirect from Slavery in Iran so that people looking for information related to this subject can still find it. ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:12, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rewrite and addition of information from related articles

I rewrote this article as best I could and added citation needed tags. I also put in and edited down some information from related topics on Wikipedia that had references. Please have a look and fix anything that needs it. One question I had was about how to deal with Timur, who it seems brutalized many Persian subject, but also ruled using the Persian language and Persian officials? How should this be dealt with? Did the institution of slavery under his rule include Persians? I am not an expert on this subject matter. But I think it's worth an article.ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:10, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Timur lane is a Turkic invader. He massacred many Iranians. He captured many Iranian slaves and depopulated many cities in Iran. Not fair to say the institution of slavery includes Persians. In fact Iranians were victim of Timur's brutality more than Armenians and Georgians. --Larno (talk) 05:18, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sexual Slavery

This article is about actual slavery which is banned in Iran I found that some irrelevant materials are added to this article such slavery in Syria and sexual slavery. Sexual slavery is out of the scope of this article and I should mention that sex slavery is banned in Iran too. Anyhow, I removed the following part from the article:

Iran is on the U.S. State Department's Trafficking of Persons list as a tier 3 source, transit point and destination for women and children trafficked for the purposes of involuntary servitude.^[1] Tier 3 includes "Governments that do not fully com ply with the minimum standards and are not making significant efforts to do so." ^[2] Other tier 3 countries include Algeria, Burma, Cuba, Fiji, Kuwait, Moldova, North Korea, Oman, Papua New Guinea, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Syria. Many of the Iraqi women fleeing the Iraq War are turning to prostitution, others are trafficked abroad, to countries like Syria, Jordan, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, Turkey, and Iran.^[3]^[4]

Thanks, --Larno (talk) 17:12, 22 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why is sexual slavery out of the scope of the article? And why have you removed other sections about slavery such as in the Ottaman Empire which included modern day Iran (and the Persian people)? You are of course welcome to add the fact that slavery is illegal in Iran, but removing sourced information as you've done seems grossly inappropriate. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:14, 22 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Slavery in Ottoman has nothing to do with Iran.If you add these material based on its proximity to Iran why you don't add slavery in Ottoman to "Slavery in Austria" or "Slavery in Italy" or Russia. Regarding the sexual slaverysexual slavery" is a diffrent topic, and we are talking about real slavery. Moreover, if you want to these materials to an approriate article. You should provide independent sources. U.S. State is not an independent source because of the level of political tensions between two countries. You are welcome to add your materials to relevant articles but many of your edits are irrelevant to this article.--Larno (talk) 05:02, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've asked Secthayrabe to offer an opinion. I believe you've worked with him before, and he has offered opinions on this article in the past. I would also like to get the opinions of others on this matter. Do you ahve a suggestion in this regard?

I don't have any problem with presenting the Ottoman information in the clear context that Iran/ Persia was part of this empire, as were other areas and other peoples. Were Iranians enslaved? I don't know. I think the article needs more details and more content from good sources.

I also have no objection to your addition noting that slavery is illegal in Iran. However, I think U.S. State Department listing of Iran is notable and should be included. I have no objection to offering context from reliable sources (Iranian or U.S.) noting the tensions between these countries. I am not aware of anyone suggesting the US has simply made up the sexual slavery issue in order to embarass Iran, but if there is an argument being made for that being the case I think that would be appropriate to accurately include as well. I don't think it's good to simply ignore the issue. ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:18, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have read a few books that said and I have the same opinion with Larno Man with the intention that their ought to be a dissimilar article about that matter.Also Slavery in Ottoman has nothing to do with Iran the as Larno said again Iran was never ruled completely by them only the north included the Capital Tabriz.Also it is notebale that everyone were force to speak Turkish if they refused then their tongues were cut off so yes they were a type of slave if I find more ifomation I will not it here,thankyou if you would like to dissuce this privately please do not hesitant to talk to me on my talkSecthayrabe (talk) 20:09, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Herodotus

I removed two quotes from Herodotus since it is up to historians to interpret it. Note quoting Herodotus is different than actually verifying his statement as fact, which Briant does not do. In other words according to ChrisO: Don't make the mistake of thinking that ancient historians wrote for the same reasons, or to the same standards, as modern historians.. And according to Briant: "It is hard to separate history from fairly tale in Herodotus". Dandamayev provides a good summary here: [1] which I have taken as a summary.--Nepaheshgar (talk) 08:31, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't remove sourced information. Briant does not cast doubt on the slavery issue. Heja Helweda (talk) 00:12, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Don't misinterpret my words and what is the slavery issue. Slavery has existed since the beginning of time. I said specifically Herodotus and not Briant who mentions Herodotus but does not confirm or deny it. So adding statements of Herodotus as fact is not the way to write an article. You can't just use primary sources over secondary sources, as there are many sources which today show not everything in Herodotus is a fact. Discussion took place with another user and it was agreed to mention Herodotus but note that modern scholars disagree with many issues mentioned by Herodotus. They will still quote Herodotus but this does not mean they confirm all of his words. Also per WP:Weight, the words of scholars on the general situation should have more weight over tertiary and primary sources. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 01:27, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My comments on Herodotus still stands. Also another user added prostitution and transit route from state department, none of these sources have anything to do with slavery. Also please use valid references and not websites. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 03:21, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

^ Trafficking in Persons Report 2008 U.S. State Department http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/105658.pdf
^ Introduction, Trafficking in Persons Report 2008 from U.S. State Department http://www.state.gov/g/tip/rls/tiprpt/2008/105376.htm
^ Trafficking in Persons Report 2008 U.S. State Department http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/105658.pdf
^ Iraqi sex slaves recount ordeals

[1] Trafficking in Persons Report 2008 U.S. State Department http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/105658.pdf

[2] Introduction, Trafficking in Persons Report 2008 from U.S. State Department http://www.state.gov/g/tip/rls/tiprpt/2008/105376.htm

[3] Trafficking in Persons Report 2008 U.S. State Department http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/105658.pdf

[4] Iraqi sex slaves recount ordeals

[1]

[2]

[3]

[4]

@@ Line 45: / Line 45: @@
 ::::Don't misinterpret my words and what is the '''slavery issue'''. Slavery has existed since the beginning of time.  I said specifically Herodotus and not Briant who mentions Herodotus but does not confirm or deny it.  So adding statements of Herodotus as fact is not the way to write an article.  You can't just use primary sources over secondary sources, as there are many sources which today show not everything in Herodotus is a fact.  Discussion took place with another user and it was agreed to mention Herodotus but note that modern scholars disagree with many issues mentioned by Herodotus.  They will still quote Herodotus but this does not mean they confirm all of his words.  Also per [[WP:Weight]], the words of scholars on the general situation should have more weight over tertiary and primary sources. --[[User:Nepaheshgar|Nepaheshgar]] ([[User talk:Nepaheshgar|talk]]) 01:27, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 ::My comments on Herodotus still stands.  Also another user added prostitution and transit route from state department, none of these sources have anything to do with slavery.  Also please use valid references and not websites.  --[[User:Nepaheshgar|Nepaheshgar]] ([[User talk:Nepaheshgar|talk]]) 03:21, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
-== Article from Encyclopedia Iranica seems to contradict itself ==
-I took a look at the article on slavery in the Achaemenid Persian Empire on the website called "Encyclopedia Iranica": http://www.iranica.com. This website was one of the most cited sources in this Wikipedia article here, so I thought that I would "go to the source" and take a look at it. (I went to the main site, typed "slavery" in the search engine, and clicked on the first item. The article that came up was the one that the Wikipedia article was referencing. The author is M. A. Dandamayev.)
-On one hand, we have the following passage from the Encyclopedia Iranica article that seems to corroborate the idea that slavery was very rare in the Achaemenid Persian Empire:
-:''On the whole, there was only a small number of slaves in relation to the number of free persons even in the most developed countries of the Achaemenid empire, and slave labor was in no position to supplant the labor of free workers. The basis of agriculture was the labor of free farmers and tenants and in handicrafts the labor of free artisans, whose occupation was usually inherited within the family, likewise predominated. In these countries of the empire, slavery had already undergone important changes by the time of the emergence of the Persian state. Debt slavery was no longer common. The practice of pledging one’s person for debt, not to mention self-sale, had totally disappeared by the Persian period. In the case of nonpayment of a debt by the appointed deadline, the creditor could turn the children of the debtor into slaves. A creditor could arrest an insolvent debtor and confine him to debtor’s prison. However, the creditor could not sell a debtor into slavery to a third party. Usually the debtor paid off the loan by free work for the creditor, thereby retaining his freedom.''
-The above passage is directly quoted in our article here.
-But, on the other hand, we also have something like this from the very same exact article:
-:''As a result of the far-flung conquests of the Achaemenids there occurred a sharp change in the royal household and in the households of the Persian nobility from primitive patriarchal slavery to intensive utilization of the labor of foreign workers in agriculture and partly in crafts. A portion of these foreigners were exploited as slaves, while the remainder were treated as semi-free people and were settled on royal land. Usually they were prisoners of war recruited from those who had rebelled against Persian rule or put up resistance to the Persian army (see M. Dandamayev, “Foreign Slaves on the Estates of the Achaemenid Kings and their Nobles,” in Trudy dvadtsat’ pyatogo mezhdunarodnogo kongressa vostokovedov II, Moscow, 1963, pp. 151-52). A substantial number of slaves who performed domestic work for the Achaemenids and Persian nobility (bakers, cooks, cupbearers, eunuchs, etc.) were also recruited from among the representatives of vanquished peoples. Babylonia alone was obliged to supply the Persian king for these purposes an annual tribute of 500 boys (Herodotus, 3.92). A certain number of such slaves were purchased by Persians on the slave market as well (Herodotus, 8.105). [...] Under the Achaemenids in Babylonia and other conquered countries Persian nobles became large slave owners (see for references Dandamaev, op. cit., p. 111). According to some documents, Iranians sold their slaves in Babylonia (see, e.g., H. G. Stigers, “Neo- and Late Babylonian Business Documents,” Journal of Cuneiform Studies 28, 1976, no, 22).''
-This passage was only briefly alluded to in our article.
-Okay, now the author of the Encyclopedia Iranica article, M. A. Dandamayev, cannot seem to make up his mind, in my opinion. He says that Persian nobles became "large slave owners" and that a substantial number of the conquered foreign peoples became agricultural and domestic slaves to their new Persian rulers. But, despite this, the author also seems to be trying to suggest that slavey was incredibly uncommon. Either there is an issue with differing ancient sources here, or the author is trying to make an "apology" for the practise of slavery.
-I think that what would really help resolve all this confusion is this: clear numbers that demonstrate the ratio of slaves to free persons in the Achaemenid Persian Empire and that also compare slavery in the Empire to, say, slavery in Greece or (pre-conquest) Egypt or other nearby civilizations. If such numbers exist from ancient sources, then that would be great! Maybe there exists a modern academic work that presents such figures? If there are no such sources, then I really do not see how we can suggest that slavery in the Achaemenid Persian Empire was rare or uncommon. Where is the evidence needed to make such a comparison coming from?
-Also, can anyone comment on this "Encyclopedia Iranica" website? Is it a reliable source? Is the author M. A. Dandamayev a scholar with academic credentials? [[Special:Contributions/76.203.224.124|76.203.224.124]] ([[User talk:76.203.224.124|talk]]) 10:27, 23 September 2009 (UTC)