Talk:Fisting

Delete?

Isn't it time we removed filth like this from the internet? Also a fictional act such as the one described herein is hardly "encyclopedic". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.111.63.147 (talk) 11:25, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

No it isn't time we removed material like this from the internet, neither is it fictional.--feline1 (talk) 18:53, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Besides. oh IP user, Wikipedia is WP:NOT Censored for anyone. Even kids; don't like it? Don't look at it :) Thor Malmjursson (talk) 01:07, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Michaelangelo's "Last Judgement"

I deleted the first picture of Michaelangelo's Last Judgement because it is a wrong interpratation of the fresco in the church. As you can see in the original image (at the bottom on the right) that hand is not inside the uppper body.

Picture removed from article: (do not repost please) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Michelangelo_-_Punishment_of_sodomy.png

Original photo of the fresco: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lastjudgement.jpg (Hi-Res) Please see original image. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.64.82.208 (talk) 23:07, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Um, if it's not inside, where is the hand going? It looks to me as if it is fisting. 64.27.9.197 (talk) 17:23, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Looks like it to me, too. However, It is inappropriate to post the image in this article, because it would be a corruption of the work: The author intends to show punishment for sin, not to depict sin. It was not intended by the author to be an illustration of what is described by this article. -- Newagelink (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:26, 22 July 2009 (UTC).

otoh, michaelangelo's dead, so who cares what he'd want? re-added as it quite clearly illustrates anal-fisting, and is probably the only non-(c) image we'll find.

also: lol at the idea that the punishment for sodomy is anal fisting :D --Dak (talk) 06:44, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

As Newagelink noted, the image repeatedly reported here (most recently by Dak) is not from the work by Michelangelo -- in the original image (referenced by 88.64.82.208 above), the hand is not inserted; the wrist and curled knuckles are clearly visible. Also, this article is about sexual activity, implicitly between consenting adults. The (altered) image is about punishment and is therefore inappropriate for this article. HalJor (talk) 04:43, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

well, one man's pleasure is another man's pain... does it really matter what michaelangelo originally meant? are we worried about disrespecting mich' by misusing his work, or about the implication that anal fisting is teh evilz? either way, it's an image that depicts anal fisting, the image inandof itself depicts anal fisting in a relatively neutral way, and it's probably the only open-source image depicting anal fisting that we'll find.

gonna talk about it here rather than edit warring, but please explain exactly why we can't use this free (as in source) image to illustrate the article? --Dak (talk) 12:08, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

well, if you don't want to talk about it: image re-inserted, as it's a free, public-domain illustration of the subject of the article. (c) expires for a reason, and that's so that we can make use of peoples' work however we want (eventually): what Michaelangelo may or may not have wanted, and wether or not it's been modified, are both irrelivent. --Dak (talk) 01:53, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Dak, HalJor's points were that A) this is not by Michelangelo -- I don't know, so I won't comment -- and B) it is unprofessional and not befitting an encyclopedia because the context of the image contradicts the context of the article. My point in discussing "what the author intended" was about context: You can't take, for example, the murder of a war prisoner who happens to be black and insert it in an article about racism. "Well it's a picture of a black guy getting killed so we can stick it in about racism" is basically your argument. The image we're discussing does not depict fisting for sexual pleasure, which this article discusses. I am frustrated by your stubbornness; you seem to want the image included simply from its vulgarity, ignoring (or hopefully not understanding) the points that have been made. If you persist, I'll be forced to assume you're trolling. Furthermore, read very carefully http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_wp_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_censored -- I quote: "images that would be considered offensive, profane, or obscene by typical Wikipedia readers should be used if and only if their omission would cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate, and no equally suitable alternatives are available." The image does not make the article more informative, and actually makes it less relevant (contradicting context) and accurate (not anatomically correct). You have absolutely no ground to stand on for including this image. Please stop. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Newagelink (talk • contribs) 04:06, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Given that the image is illustrative, then it's ommision DOES make the article less informative, unless you can find a suitable replacement. And if you check the article The_Last_Judgment_(Michelangelo) you'll find that, OBVIOUSLY ENOUGH, sodomy is not, in actual fact, being portrayed as the punishment for sodomy -- rather, sins and virtues are both being portrayed. Weather Michaleangelo thought that anal fisting was a sin is irrelevent -- the image portrays anal fisting for sexual pleasure.

(as an aside, in the abscence of any actual imagry of racism, i'd consider a black guy being lynched in a non-racist way to be better than nothing, although obviously some actual racism would be better. I have actually looked for CC pictures of fisting, but can find none).

i'm going to put the picture back in. If you disagree, I suggest one of those 'request for commentry' thingumyjoggers to get some other peoples' opinions --Dak (talk) 21:08, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Know what, the original provided here does not illustrate what the article is illustrating. If a corruption is needed to illustrate it then obviously it cannot be attributed to the original source. But why does there need to be any illustartion at all? The article is illustrative enough and it doesn't require much imagination to see a hand inserted into an anus or vagina. Using no censorship to include a vulgar image isn't reason enough if it doesn't add to the article's usefulness. Even if these conditions are satisfied there is still an issue with copyright. Public domain only applies to the original work so if someone makes substantial changes to a derivitive it may be regarded as their own ip without affecting the status of the original. Biofase ^flame| stalk  22:35, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

1. How can you claim that an illustration of fisting does not illustrate the article on fisting?
2. why do you persist in calling it a corruption, when Michaelangelo was representing the sexual act of fisting in that part of the murial?
3. if you think that an image of fisting is so vulgar, then why your interest in the (presumably also vulgar) article on the same subject?

• and, as for not 'needing' an illustration, the WP:MOS suggests starting articles with a lead-image or infobox (presumably as it makes the article look better, and is more... umm... 'illustrative' of the subject matter).

--Dak (talk) 18:30, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Re 1: This is not an illustration of fisting any more than a photo of rape is an illustration of sexual intercourse. Fisting, in the context of this article, is a mutually consensual sexual act. In the disputed illustration, it is an act of punishment (as you have noted yourself) and as such, the recipient is not consenting.

Re 2: It is a corruption, because Michelangelo did not depict the hand actually being inserted into the anus. As I stated above, the wrist is clearly visible in Michelangelo's work; in the disputed illustration, it is not. (Don't believe me? Download the original here, zoom in near center-right, and play with the brightness/contrast if you have to.) Any reference to what Michelangelo intended in this disputed illustration is completely moot.

Re 3: It is not that the image is vulgar. It is merely inappropriate for this article because for the reasons stated in Re 1 above.

Re 4: We are not debating whether this article needs an illustration. It just needs to be an appropriate selection. The claim that the disputed illustration is "probably the only non-(c) image we'll find" is completely false. There is nothing preventing you, or anyone, from producing your own illustration and releasing it to the community. HalJor (talk) 17:06, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

re 1: as i said, if you check the wp article on the picture, you'll find that it depicts the act of sodomy, not the punishment for sodomy (seriously, the punishment for sodomy isn't going to be more sodomy, is it?). it's fair to assume, then, that the act depicts consensual sodomy, tho, according to you (and i'd agree), "any reference to what Michelangelo intended is completely moot". It appears to be fisting. ergo, it is. claims as to consent or otherwize IN REGUARDS TO A PAINTING are somewhat irrelevent, barring it clearly being one or the other (which it isn't). it just depicts sodomy (neither clearly rape, nor clearly consensual); Michaelangelo probably intended it to be consensual, as he's depicting kinky perversions in that part of the painting (not punishments).

re2: It is not modified (other than the colour drained), tho i do agree on closer inspection that the fist is not in the anus (in either the original or the image in the article... looking closely, you can see the curled fingers in both images). however, it does look like it is attempted, mid, or pre-fisting (or possibly anal fingering), and at a glance the fingers aren't notisable so it just looks like fisting).

re4: ok, then here's my suggestion:

• we leave the image in, on the grounds that it's better than nothing and it's the only picture that is (copyright-wize) acceptable for inclusion that has been presented, but acknowledge that it's no where near 100% satisfactory
• if a better, usable image turns up, we replace the image with that one.
• No, I am not going to make said image... if it bugs you so much, why don't you? (tho, for the record, i searched flickr for creative-commons fisting pics, but alas, there were none...).

An alternative, as the image is in the public domain, is that one of us could modify it to appear more like fisting, release our modifications into the public domain, declair that our derived work depicts consensual sodomy, upload it as 'sodomy (modified from public-domain work by Michaelangelo)', and use that for the article?

--Dak (talk) 01:29, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

1\ You noted that the image depicts punishment, which is inherently non-consensual, and therefore not appropriate for an article on consensual sex. There is no context for the picture.

2\ The fact that color is drained means it has been modified. And since the fist is not inserted, it cannot be assumed that it ever would be.

Finally, the image is not "better than nothing" because it does not depict the act being described in the article.

Re-inserting the image to solicit comments isn't going to work either, because it leaves the article in an inferior state while discussion happens. Incidentally, you are the only person in this entire discussion who has suggested leaving the picture in -- while two other editors (besides myself) have asked you to not re-insert it. HalJor (talk) 05:14, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

There are a couple of things that are bothering me about this.

Where is this depicted in the original painting? I have been reviewing it for over half an hour and i cannot find it. Surely since noöne else contests this matter it must be visible somewhere.

UPDATE - i finally found it in the original image. Due to the flesh tones it is clear there that it is a curled hand. In the derivative the lack of colour as well as the low resolution result in the curled hand appearing to be the scrotum of the other man. Genital areas were covered in the painting save for those depicted as entirely in the realm of sin at the bottom. As such the derivative is misleading. jh0367 (talk) 06:22, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Given that is has the colour removed and has been isolated from the rest of the original image i would argue that it is a derivative and as such you should be citing the artist who made the derivative as well as /or/ instead of the original painter in both the source and the licensing rights . As such it may not be in the public domain and thus NOT available for use in Wikipedida.

Use of a derivative of a religious painting modified so as to extol the virtues of anal fisting distorts the context of the image and of the article. I don't have personal objections to anal fisting but i was quite surprised to see a Renaissance-era-looking image appear in the article. To even imply that the Sistine Chapel has a depiction of such a sex act when it is not true does not belong in an encyclopædia.

The argument has been stated numerous times that there is no better image available. I would like to advise of two options to resolve that. The first is to have a drawing made, much like most other articles of this genre have in their infoboxes. [1] The other alternative is to create an image/photograph and release it with a CC license, upload it and replace the contested image that is presently being used. [2] I would recommend the former as it would fall in line with the style of similar articles. jh0367 (talk) 06:08, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

The issue is the image is attributed to Michaelangelo which just is not true. It's no more true than if you took someone off the street (which is what this is), had them draw a copy of the Mona Lisa with a beard, and then post under it, "The bearded lady, as depicted by da Vinci." It's fine to say it's a depiction of "fisting"; but it's not fine to say it's Michaelangelo's depiction of fisting. Which it is clearly not. The original picture shows the hand outside the person's body, the write and fist clearly visible. The sketch obviously does not show that; but the sketch is NOT by Michaelangelo. Mefanch (talk) 21:58, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Edit war reported. HalJor (talk) 05:37, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

If the Sixtine Chapel has an image of a guy putting a fist up some other's guy ass, then I would expect that some source would comment on this fact. Either a sexuality book explaining the sexual ideas at that time or the history of fisting, or a religious book explaining what sort of punishment it was and why it was depicted like that, or even a popular culture book listing curiosities in art. The pictures on the chapel have been very studied, so there should be some source talking about that one. Then, we can use their assesment of the significance of the picture. Without any source, and with so many doubts about the actual action, I wouldn't use that picture at all. --Enric Naval (talk) 21:31, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Citations

Why is there a Citation Needed tag for: "Fisting has been performed on (and by) both men and women; gay, straight and otherwise."

This is pretty much common knowledge. Ever hear of the Romans? pjh3000 (talk) 20:37, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm, common flaw in policy perhaps? Biofase ^flame| stalk  04:06, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually, the {{Fact}} tag is on the next sentence about the three main techniques that have developed. Surely, one of the sources under References can supply something for that. Perhaps there is something in The Intelligent Man’s Guide or one of the other works? I’m not familiar with the sources and so cannot suggest which one might be able to provide a useful footnote. — SpikeToronto (talk) 07:03, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Some fistees also enjoy deeper penetration, in which the hand or hands are inserted into the sigmoid colon and large intestine, with the most experienced sometimes being able to accommodate the arm or arms all the way up to the shoulder. This statement is probably the most ridiculously dubious I have ever come across in this type of article. We're talking about human beings here, not ruminants. There is no fricking way you can insert a human arm up to the shoulder up another human's arsehole (without killing them). I tend to think that this was put in as a hoax - can anyone actually cite this, or it's going to get the chop! — JulesVerne (talk) 16:48, 07 December 2009 (GMT)

It is fairly common and you can even find it online. Try searching for "Dorian fisting" for female-to-male. You can see male-to-male (definitely not my thing) here. Unfortunately male-to-female or female-to-female havn't appeared on the internet AFAIK except in erotic stories and artwork. DinDraithou (talk) 17:12, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, you could find photos and videos of such deep fisting pretty easily online should you wish. --feline1 (talk) 18:54, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I would still like a non porn-site citation (the world of porn is often "exaggerated"). From a medical/anatomical standpoint, it would seem difficult or dangerous. Fribbler (talk) 01:03, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

You say "porn". That's not what I said. Again, watch the sample movie [here. DinDraithou (talk) 01:13, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Ok. Watched it. That's clearly a porn site. Not really a reliable source. I'd prefer a newspaper article, or a journal article saying that fisting occurs to shoulder level. "Internet videos" are often aided by special effects and I'm still not sure such extensive insertion is possible. Can you dig anything up? Fribbler (talk) 01:19, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't think I'm going to bother, or need to. Go ask a doctor. DinDraithou (talk) 01:43, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Well no, you don't need to find a ref, but I was hoping for some help since you know more about it than I. We've all seen the a&e cases of object insertion etc., but I can't believe an object a full metre in length and 10cm in diameter can enter the colon of a person with normal anatomy. Fribbler (talk) 12:27, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Having seen videos on the internet that have girls having sex with abnormally large penises, 20"+, with the caveat of "oops, in these frames you can see the performers /actual/ penis, not the latex/silicone attachment everyone's trying very hard to pretend is their penis", I'm going to say "not a reliable source". In the video I saw there, what was described as "armpit-deep" was realistically a couple of inches beyond the elbow, "aided" by the momentum of shoulders flexing in follow through to give the appearance of something much deeper. A reliable source would be an objective text, preferably medical. Without an objective citation that it can be done, I'm not convinced. Achromatic (talk) 17:45, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

In a sigmoidoscopy, the rigid “sigmoidoscope is advanced, usually as far up as the sigmoid colon or descending colon.” (“Sigmoidoscopy,” Encylopedia. MedlinePlus. (Retrieved 2009-12-09.))

Also, remember that the entire large intestine — from the cecum to the anus — is flexible; it is not rigid. The poor medical intern tasked with performing a digital disimpaction may, on rare occasion — in an examination under anesthetic — have to insert himself/herself as far as the sigmoid colon. — SpikeToronto 20:05, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

A rigid sigmoidoscope is usually just under 13mm in diameter, its not an arm. And in terms of digital disimpaction, the sigmoid colon is a maximun of 15-20cm from the anus. Shoulder depth penetration seems to be a figment of pornography. Fribbler (talk) 20:21, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. Just beacause I can go online and see 'genuine photos' of men with supposedly 15 inch penises, it doesn't make it real. There may be a tiny number of men who actually fit these dimensions, but in reality, photoshopping of the images of normal porn actors is rampant, to the point where there would be no reliable case for using porn sites to cite a wikipedia article on penis size. Even if the colon and intestines are flexible, human arms only bend in two places (excluding the shoulder). I find it improbable to the point of impossibility that you could insert an arm to shoulder depth up someone's backside without causing serious injury or death. For goodness sake - it's like something out of American Psycho. The editor who entered that line must be chuckling to himself. JulesVerne (talk) 09:41, 10 December 2009 (GMT)

Request for photographs???

I'm curious as to why a couple of entries - fisting and creampie(sex act) - have a request for photographs associated to the article in the discussion tab.

Yet from what I saw in the creampie - there is an ongoing battle/argument over having photographs. When photos are uploaded they're deleted.

Why have this "request for photographs" on entries about explicit sexual acts?

Rayngrant (talk) 22:27, 18 March 2009 (UTC)Ray Grant

Ever heard of trolls? 193.157.242.51 (talk) 16:22, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

In Italian culture, the current third picture is the "fig" sign, and considered incredibly obscene. It is referenced in Dante's Inferno. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.254.156.202 (talk) 02:07, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

And? Biofase ^flame| stalk  04:06, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Why point specifically to GLBT?

What exactly does this have to do with WikiProject LGBT studies? Associating fisting specifically with that is kind of offensive. Anal sex I can see, but fisting? That seems to cross a line. Unless there are studies to back up the idea that gays and/or lesbians are the predominant practitioners, it's a blind and somewhat prejudiced assumption. --Mattbrown04 (talk) 02:43, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Most gay men dont fist..but most "fisters" are gay men....