Talk:École polytechnique

"the foremost French engineering school."

I think the first sentence of this article is too promotional. You should rely on facts. I would replace it by "one of the foremost French engineering schools." Other engineering schools in France are leaders in their own field. Please sustain this claim with rankings or change the sentence. For a good description of a French grandes ecoles, go to École nationale d'administration and HEC_Paris pages. Gabaix 07:52, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Only French ?

I don't think only French are allowed to access ecole polytechnique, so this phrase might be changed "Both male and female French polytechniciens (or "X")"

I don't think you can list X as a military academy. First, it has lost this status years ago. Second, there's no military training after the 8 first months, except for sports. David.Monniaux 08:05, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Is it relevant to name the Prytanée de la Flèche along with Louis-le-Grand or Henri IV here ? Maybe the author of the article attended it but to my knowledge it represents a very small minority at the École Polytechnique. In promotion 2004, only 2 people come from the Prytanée for exemple. Most students actually come from Louis-le-Grand or Sainte-Geneviève; and seeing the Prytanée mentionned here is quite surprising !

Right, one author added it, perhaps deluded by the idea that a military highschool was better to enter X. Could you perhaps start an article on "Ginette"? David.Monniaux 07:05, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

A "national public establishment of an administrative character" is probably a literal translation of "établissement public (à caractère) administratif" but is not helpful/intelligible to the native English speaker. How about simply a "state university"? No-username-yet 12:45, 15 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Right, but X is not a state university. It does not follow the same statutes as French universités, by far! David.Monniaux 16:46, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

What is the English/American equivalent of the degrees offered? It says in "The Polytechnicien studies", "(students are awarded a Master after the third year of their studies at Polytechnique);" but I am not sure if they mean the equivalent of a "Master's degree"(M.A. or M.S.) in English, or if this is a French term meaning something different. Getting a M.A. or M.S. in 3 years would be rather remarkable in the U.S. - about 5 years would be the typical minimum, maybe 6 or 7 more typical.

Also, it says they take military training, but does not say if it is at the school, like Virginia Military Institute, or if they take it from the real military off-campus. Identity0 11:38, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

The master awarded at X is not a "master's degree" but a master (french word !) wich is quite the same thing as a M.S. It is awarded after 5 years of studies, 2 in the classes préparatoires and 3 at the school.

As said in the article, the basic military training takes place in the french Army moutain warfare center in Barcelonette in the Alps. It is completed by classes taken in french military academies such as école spéciale militaire de Saint-Cyr for the Army, école navale for the Navy, école de l'air for the Air Force and so. Specific affectations such as Navy Air Force requires even a third formation in specific warfare schools. During their years at X, the students have some military ceremonies wich require to wear the uniform and are still organized in platoons and companies but do not do any real military service. Some of them, very few really, choose at the end of the studies to enter in the military and a little more in the technical and ingeneer services of the defense department. 62.34.90.57 13:48, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm confused. I was under the impression that after 3 years of study, an X student is awarded a "Diplôme d'Ingénieur", which is not equivalent to a "Master" (the French word). Fourth-year students at the Polytechnique may be however admitted directly into the second year of a "Master Recherche" program in a regular university, upon completion of which they will be awarded a true master's degree (equivalent to an old French D.E.A). The Master Recherche degree in turn enables them to seek admission into a doctoral school. As far as comparisons with American degrees are concerned, I personally disagree that a 5-year German undergraduate "Diplom" or any Bac+5 French degree are comparable to a combination B.S.+ M.S. from a top American university like, let's say, MIT or Caltech. I tend to think that the models of undergraduate and first-year graduate (master's) education in the US are so different from those in continental Europe that direct comparisons are not possible. 200.177.26.167 23:11, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Dear Infinity0, entrance to X is possible normally only after 2 to 3 years of university-level studies in mathematics/physics. Remember to count these when you try to evaluate equivalences. David.Monniaux 18:40, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

It is wrong to establish equivalences between degrees based solely on the number of years of schooling that are needed to get them. It normally takes 18 years to get a "Diplôme d'Ingénieur" from the Polytechnique (13 years of elementary and secondary school + 2 years of prep classes + 3 years of Engineering School). That is indeed roughly the same number of years that are normally necessary to get an M.S. degree in the U.S (12 years of elementary and secondary school + a 4-year college major in engineering (B.S.) + 1.5 to 2 additional years of Grad School work for the master's). The two degrees however are fundamentally different in nature. American B.S. degrees aim at producing in 4 years a professional that is ready to go straight into the labor force and work as practicing engineer. Therefore, a B.S. curriculum is structured around a small math/science core (normally at the level of the 13th French school year + 2 years of prep classes) followed by breadth and depth classes in one single engineering specialty (electrical, mechanical, etc), including possibly a great deal of industry-oriented design courses. An M.S. in engineering on the other hand is an opportunity to go deeper into a given sub-area of your undergrad major (for example, within EE, in signal processing, control, communications, microelectronics, etc...) with an additional coursework that is similar in nature e.g. to the fourth-year (Part III) curriculum for a British undergraduate MEng degree in a top school like Cambridge or the Imperial College London. An M.S. degree in engineering is also an opportunity for American students to get preliminary research experience in preparation for possible future PhD studies. The "engineering" education at the Polytechnique has, on the other hand, a completely different set of goals. At least as I see it, the aim of the Polytechnicien curriculum is to provide a broad and, by American standards, fairly advanced background in (pure and applied) mathematics, computer science, and natural sciences (physics, chemistry and biology), while the teaching of professional engineering properly takes lower priority and is merely incidental as an illustrative example of application of the basic scientific subjects. The opportunity for professional engineering training/specialization (of the type that exists in the U.S. or, indeed, in the 5-year German Diplom curriculum) exists within the modern "cycle polytechnicien" only in the 4th-year (i.e. beyond the Ingénieur de la Polytechnique degree) when students may choose to move to a specialized engineering school to get another degree in a specific engineering major. Mbruno 03:47, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

A master's degree in the US is not the equivalent of a "maitrise". This is a common misunderstanding. It is closer to is closer to a DSS or a DEA in France. The US doesn't have an exact equivalent to the matrise, but it would be similar to taking a 5th year and writing an honors thesis. While some master's students do earn their degree in their 5th year in the US, it is because they began their master's courses early. It is considered a graduate degree, and not part of an undergraduate curriculum. It is often undertaken at a different school than the undergraduate degree, sometimes later in life after some time working. It can be an end in itself, like a counseling degree or an MBA, or it can be earned in the course of a PhD. program. It typically takes about 2-3 years to complete. In some disciplines, it is awarded to students who attempt a PhD but find it too taxing or beyond them. For instance, when I graduated with my bachelor's degree, I then moved all the way from Boston to Texas to join a PhD program. After a few years, having finishing most of the PhD coursework, it became clear that I wouldn't be able to finish the PhD, so I decided to get my master's which I happened to write in France. In the course of sitting in a cafe in Bordeaux and writing, I talked with a number of French and British folk, and eventually understood my degree to be closer to a DSS or DEA. To the point of this article, I would use the French word "maitrise" untranslated with a brief explanation (or a link to a stub)and not try to make a master's degree an American equivalent.

[different post and contributor...] This is an intricate matter. What has been written above about the differences between US MS programs and French "ingénieur" degrees is valid. However, there are also huge differences from one MS to another, even within the same US university. The official rule in France is that all "ingénieur" degrees give the equivalent of a Master's degree ("grade de master") and this, in turn, is consistent with the European policy (Bologna process). Students from several of the best "ingénieur" programs in France can apply to replace their final year with a MS in a partner US university (such as MIT, Stanford, Caltech, Ann Arbor, GeorgiaTech...). Roughly speaking, they tend to have a stronger background in mathematics and theoretical science than the average students in those programs, but rather less experimental/teamwork background. Ecole Polytechnique is a special case among French engineering schools. While the "ingénieur" program is very selective and intensive, and leads to the "ingénieur" degree after 3 years (i.e., 5 years of higher education), this degree is not designed as a final degree. This is not a matter of level, rather of focus. It is thus compulsory for all French students to add another two or three semesters and get a second, more specialized/finalized Master's degree or equivalent, either at Ecole Polytechnique, in a partner French institution, in a foreign university or within a Corps de l'Etat. Virtually all foreign students follow the same pattern. Thus, the "polytechnicien" program is de facto a double Master's program: the first degree ("ingénieur de l'Ecole Polytechnique") contains mostly theoretical science, with courses and project work in at least six different fields, strong components in management, humanities, languages, sports..., the second degree is more specialized, either professional or leading to the independent research part of a Ph.D. Another point should be emphasized: in France, Ph.D's generally do not include compulsory courses. This means that in contrast with US Ph.D. programs (and I do not mean integrated MS/Ph.D. here), a French student has to take all the required courses before s/he starts the doctoral work, i.e., during the Master or "ingénieur" program. Thus, the courses which one can find in a MS at MIT or Caltech would be roughly comparable to 3rd-year courses (sometimes 2nd-year) in the "ingénieur" program at Ecole Polytechnique or to Master's 2nd-year ("M2") courses, depending on the field and the degree of specialization. Some US students can actually spend an "M2" year at Ecole Polytechnique after they complete their MS, and validate it in their home university as part of their Ph.D.Gmt18 (talk) 11:40, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Ecoles d'Application

Hello people, this is to inform you that the article dedicated to SUPAERO has been placed into the peer review thread. I invite you to take a peek at it and say what you think of it. Thanks! Flambe 04:11, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

THES Ranking

Hi guys. For a start, I have no doubt X is a great university and probably the most selective in France. But claiming to be among the global top 10 in THES is untrue. In fact, X is placed 28th overall, 31st in natural sciences and 34th for technology. It is amongst the top 10 for staff/ student ratio. See: http://www.fc.ethz.ch/facts/ir/rankings/thes_ranking/THES_World_University_Rankings_2007.pdf/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.67.230.56 (talk) 09:23, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I second that... when I deleted this false assertion, my modifications were stubbornly deleted ! Shame ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.225.238.232 (talk) 21:55, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually it was ranked 10 in the 2005 edition, but has lost some ranks since then. So no lie and no shame —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.2.188.202 (talk) 05:07, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

True. The THES rankings changed their computation system over the years. IMHO Ecole Polytechnique can reasonably be ranked around No. 30 for the time being. By the way, I think that the reference to the Russian Global University Ranking should be suspended for now, as long as the credibility of this ranking is marred by controversy.Gmt18 (talk) 11:10, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

French Science?

The box, French Science, that was just added to this page, seems to me to be quite out of place. The École Polytechnique is part of many different categories, with science being just one of them. We could just as well put boxes for French Military, French Engineering, etc. Even worse, it is not clear what the reader is supposed to make of this box, as the École Polytechnique does not even appear in it! -- MyPOV (talk) 15:54, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Seeing no objection, I'm removing the box.--MyPOV (talk) 08:01, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

no undergrads?

The infobox says there are no undergrads, but this is completely incoherent for an article that describes in detail the Polytechnic's undergraduate curriculum. -- MyPOV (talk) 06:51, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

depends on the definition you take for "undergaduate". The Ecole delivers to its students (expect for the few phd) the French diplome d'ingénieur, which is an equivalent of a strong Master's Degree.

if you have a look on the website : all the students make undergraduate education ( http://www.polytechnique.edu/page.php?MID=173) and then they get all a graduate eduction, and then a diploma. There is NO undergraduate diploma, so I believe we can't write that the Ecole produces undergraduates. Eumachia (talk) 00:08, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

The term that you have now put in the article, "combined undergraduate-graduate curriculum", captures this well, in my opinion.--MyPOV (talk) 02:43, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

thanks for your corrections. Eumachia (talk) 20:00, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

1989 shooting

I beleive this is the school where the second montreal shooting took place. They even have a movie about it.Androo123 (talk) 20:52, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

No, the school you are referring to is Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal, in Canada. This article is about Ecole Polytechnique in Palaiseau, France, a founding member of ParisTech.Gmt18 (talk) 11:06, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

IST

The following is an unsourced quote from the article:

"Finally, some foreign students come for a single year from institutions such as MIT and IST."

As far as I understand, any foreign student already enrolled at another institution can apply [1] and there is no special exchange programme for student from IST (I tried to search for it, there is for MIT [2]. The only reference I found from IST is this page (in Portuguese) [3] which redirects students to apply through the general procedures available to students from all other universities). As such, I'm not sure why this particular institution has been mentioned. The French version of this article doesn't mention anything about it either. Universalcosmos (talk) 02:19, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

In fact, there are different exchange programs. One includes lectures and courses and anyone can indeed apply. The other one is focused on research and this is open only to partner universities. However, you are right to point out that IST has no special status - all European universities can propose an Erasmus agreement to another institution. The only specific collaboration I know of between Ecole Polytechnique and IST is a partnership in the Master's program in Molecular Chemistry. Gmt18 (talk) 11:05, 31 December 2009 (UTC)