Talk:Highways in Croatia

Article Title

as per Wikipedia:Naming conventions which state:Convention: Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly recognized by readers than the English form. I think this is confusingly titled. As a Wikipedia reader I expect an article about the highways of Croatia to be similar to other articles called "Highways of ..." In other words: I don't expect the article to only refer to expressways and freewaylike roads to the exclusion of what most English speakers would Identify as a highway. Furthermore, 'Autocesta' strongly has the appearance of being a cognate to the terms 'autostrada', 'autobahn', 'autoroute' and so on. These articles, like this one, are about the freewaylike roads "unique" to certain countries. I would suggest following this emergent convention by calling the page: Autocesta, Autocestas in Croatia, Expressways in Croatia, Motorways in Croatia, Freeways & Expressways of Croatia, The Autoceste of Croatia etc; but not highways, unless the scope of this article is widened.Synchronism (talk) 01:00, 25 September 2008 (UTC) also from the WP:Naming conventions: "Do not use an article name that suggests a hierarchy of articles. Since Transport in Azerbaijan could just as well be considered a subdivision of Transport as of Azerbaijan ..." Synchronism (talk) 01:05, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Highway as a wide high-speed road is the meaning understood and prevalent in European English-language administration. I'm not talking only about England and Ireland here, but also about all countries whose governments use English language to some degree in international correspondence. When you say "highway" to someone who has learned English in Europe, he'll understand it as Autobahn. E.g. compare Highways in Finland, Highway system in Taiwan, National Trunk Highway System in China or Interstate highway system. Admiral Norton ^(talk) 14:39, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in a rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less."

That is just one group of users, as a register of English it is far removed from any vernacular variety. And while this information would be notable in the article highway if it is verified, you've already expressed disdain that any one group's term might receive too much precedence.

I disagree about your assumptions as to what Europeans writ large would translate as autobahn. Highway is understood by many Europeans that I know to mean any public road. I'm very aware that some people, like you, have a different definitions (many different from yours) about roads. This is an encyclopedia written in English, articles need to be sensitive to vocabulary differences, not ruled by them. Look at the big picture. Highways in Finland is next. The other three mentionings make specific that they are talking about a specific system of highways and they do not declare that they are the exclusive highways to that country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Synchronism (talk • contribs) 21:26, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

And please look at these [1][2] and a pease explore this one even more [3].Synchronism (talk) 06:41, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

As an answer: [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], etc. Also, highways prevail over motorways on Croatian sites by 97,800 to 7,020. Admiral Norton ^(talk) 19:06, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Although I agree that people who have learned English in Europe would readily recognize meaning of the word "highway" in the article title, that does not imply that they would not as readily recognize word "motorway" for this type of road. On the other hand, to native speakers of English, the word "highway" normally designates not only motorways, but also other types of road. The fact that wikipedia features articles such as Highways in Finland and the fact that Croatian government erroneously uses the word, does not make it properly used English word. Furthermore I agree that articles should be sensitive to language differences and not be ruled by them, but this is a case of an expression which is not normally used by Native speakers for the concept described. --83.131.226.138 (talk) 10:59, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

People living in Phoenix would readily recognize what "Broadway Curve" means, but that doesn't imply they wouldn't recognize the word if we wrote "Broadway Turn." However, there is an established use of the former term and not the latter one, so Wikipedia does not say "Broadway Turn," but "Broadway Curve." Same with Croatian "highways" vs. "motorways." Admiral Norton ^(talk) 17:41, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I for one might actually agree with your intent - the central operating company of first-class-highways-whatever-you-want-to-call-them, Hrvatske Autoceste (HAC), has its name officially translated as "Croatian Motorways Ltd" and uses the term motorway throughout its English web page, so there is certainly a case to be made for using that translation for autocesta.

Nevertheless, this article title should stay where it is, because it describes not only autocesta but also brza cesta and državna cesta, i.e. all common types of highways in the country. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 18:20, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Speaking of which, I just noticed that all the companies related to autoceste seem to all use the term motorway (see external links section of this article), so we seem to have little reason to prefer the other, ambiguous term in our articles. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 00:39, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

As you write, it is better to keep the development the article has had lately, describing also ordinary roads, and keeping the name. We should avoid translating autocesta to highway. --BIL (talk) 11:05, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

That is completely correct. All four operators of motorways in Croatia (HAC, ARZ, AZM, BINA) use term motorway to refer to autocesta. Likewise, the latest government publications also use the term in that way. Furthermore, the article states that Croatians translate the term autocesta as highway which is entirely unsubstantiated claim, as this (mis)use of the term is virtually exclusive to Croatian speakers not proficient in English. Being a court certified translator of Croatian/English language pair I am confident that no speaker of Croatian, who is proficient in English would use any term other than motorway to refer to autocesta. Furthermore articles such as Highways in Finland do not really serve to demonstrate proper use of the term any more than this article on its own, therefore any such use of term highway in this article should be revised, since its use is entirely baseless in this instance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.3.159.193 (talk) 12:07, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Map

This could use a map, no? (LAz17 (talk) 05:09, 7 January 2009 (UTC))

Yes, the highways could, by all means. However, the expressways are mostly too short to be on a map of the whole Croatia and many are unmarked and thus not on the list. Admiral Norton ^(talk) 20:37, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

There's Image:Autobahn-Kro.png on commons nowadays, but it is a bit crude. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 18:22, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Solved! Image:Autocesta.svg exists and is used. Indeed, we actually have competition, because Image:Kroatien Autobahnen.svg also exists and is similarly well done. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 13:17, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

official list of all brza cesta

Where can one find such a list? Google can't find me anything of the sort... --Joy [shallot] (talk) 19:14, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

you can find the list here... http://narodne-novine.nn.hr/clanci/sluzbeni/339381.html hope it helps... A1979 (talk) 13:01, 11 October 2009 (UTC)a1979

Oh, I know about that one (linked from Hrvatske ceste), but that doesn't have "brze ceste". They should be a subset of "državne ceste", but I don't know if the markings match. It would be good to have an official reference that says it clearly, e.g. whenever a D<n> road is upgraded to a brza cesta, its marking changes to B<n> - that seems to be the pattern now. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 18:12, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

The link above actually does not specify any brza cesta, rather state/county/local roads. Actually, Road Transportation Safety Act (in Croatian: http://narodne-novine.nn.hr/clanci/sluzbeni/339713.html) defines brza cesta in Article 2 Section 4, and the term is not actually mentioned anywhere else in this Act. It would appear that brza cesta is applied to actual conditions of the road: grade separated intersections, two traffic lanes in each direction separated by a central reserve etc. Actually there are no B road designations used in Croatia, as suggested by the article, rather brza cesta sections are parts of state roads. For instance one part of D28 (linking Sv. Helena and Veliki Zdenci) is brza cesta (Vrbovec-Gradec) but it is not designated as B road - actually when the section of brza cesta was opened for traffic, it was prominently termed as brza cesta D28. (see http://www.vrbovec.hr/clanak.aspx?ID=393). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.3.159.193 (talk) 12:31, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

One further information to clarify road designation system used in Croatia: State/county/local road designation, unlike motorway (A) designation, does not say anything about actual conditions of the road - i.e. a state (D) road may be brza cesta (expressway), regular road with one traffic lane in each direction and level intersections or even a macadamized road (in case of parts of D34, D49, D32, D36 and D506) or any combination of those. The same applies for county and local roads. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.3.159.193 (talk) 12:58, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. So it looks like the expressway naming scheme Bnumber on Wikipedia is a conjecture, against the Wikipedia:No original research policy. If there are no objections, I'll fix all references made to Bnumber to say Dnumber. Thankfully there aren't many. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 13:33, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Note - that classification is from April 2008. On the Croatian Wikipedia I found the link to the classification from October 2008 - http://narodne-novine.nn.hr/clanci/sluzbeni/2008_10_122_3506.html --Joy [shallot] (talk) 19:56, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

And it is still applicable, as indicated by the Ministry of the Sea, Transport and Infrastructure website http://www.mmpi.hr/default.aspx?id=406. Interestingly enough, the same document specifies that public roads are divided into motorways, state, county and local roads - with no reference to brza cesta whatsoever. --78.3.189.195 (talk) 20:11, 12 April 2010 (UTC)