Talk:Hawaiian Pidgin

Help!

Eh, I nevah know Pidgin stay so complicated! I think I've probably got this article going to a good start, and touched on the basics, but anyone who wants to really delve into detail on this article, e.g. grammar, vocabulary, pronunciation, etc....eh, chance 'em!  :) KeithH 07:13, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hawaiian Pidgin seems to be a dialect of english, rather than a separate language. (Unlike Tok pisin, which largely is unintelligible to a speaker of standard english.) To an outside viewer, it seems to be similar to Ebonics. What do you think?

Ho! How you call Pidgin a creole language? Its a dialect brah! I gon' get bold, and change da' category!

Wot!!! Like beef?!?  :) :) Nah...I can see your point. The last thing I want is to get into an edit war. Sure it's a dialect, as in a variant of English. AND, it fits the definition of pidgin, when two or more language groups improvise a common language so that they can communicate. Hawaiian, Portuguese, Japanese, Chinese, Filipino, English..you can't get much different. AND, since most locals nowadays learned Pidgin from grandma, from mom and dad, from the schoolyard, we've become native speakers...that's the point when a pidgin becomes a creole. So just think of creole as the most specific term. And as for intelligibility, just put yourself in the shoes of a tourist from Nebraska visiting the islands for the first time and overhearing two locals speaking full-on Pidgin...'nuff said.  :) KeithH 06:04, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

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If Hawaiian Creole English isn't actually a creole, then why are there such differences in da Pidgin and standard English? Locals will constantly switch between both "dialects", (what linguists call code switching), and each language variety contains context bound information or social commentary about Hawaiian culture and social relationships. Will code switching prove that HCE or Pidgin English is really a seperate language from standard English? Why bother to switch at all if they're the same language?

try scots for unintelligible dialects

Well, I don't want an edit war either, so I surrender. I suppose I'm interpreting the definitions of dialect pidgin and creole language to mean that Hawaiian Pidgin is a dialect of English, not a separate language, so therefore it couldn't be considered a Creole language. I was going to prove my point by pointing out that if you want to hear unintelligible versions of English, then go to Scotland. (I lived there for a few months) But then I looked up scots language and the article acknowledges the dispute between calling it a dialect or a language. And they fall on the side of calling it a separate language.

Here's what they said about the dispute:

Whether the varieties of Lowland Scots are dialects of English or constitute a separate language in their own right is often disputed. There is little doubt that, had Scotland remained independent, Lowland Scots would be regarded as a separate language from English. This has happened in Norway with Norwegian. Norwegian, once regarded as a dialect of Danish, has been regarded as a language in its own right since Norwegian independence in the 19th century. All the same, the British government now accepts Lowland Scots as a regional language and has recognised it as such under the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages.

--Frogcat 01:31, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Creole or dialect?

I would agree with those who dispute its status as a creole. As has been said, when compared to other creoles like Sranan Tongo or Tok Pisin, its grammatical structure is very much like any other English dialect. It might have been a creole in the past, but if so it seems to have gone through enough "decreolization" (by increased contact with standard American English) so that its creole origins are not apparent anymore.

Why not avoid the issue entirely and use the term polyglot? the grammar is substantially different, I think the point people are trying to make is that much of the vocabulary is similar. "Jesus wen go down" doesn't make any sense in a traditional english (grammar) sense, but the meaning can (almost) be derived from context and vocabulary. Avriette 05:02, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Help?

Please see discussion here. It's gotten kind of ugly, and I would like assistance from somebody who is formally trained in linguistics, or at least has a better grasp of the subject than I do. I'm more of a hobbyist, and I know the terminology. However, I think in this case, it's a grey area. I would also ask that before making a quick judgement based on the nature of the article, that you think about some of the comments. I am fairly certain we're not talking about a slang here, as it's a constructed grammar, which is dynamic. I also don't think we have a pidgin. A dialect may be the right word, but because it is so drastically different, I have doubts about that. Really, I'd just like a chance to discuss the matter. I'll be placing this comment over at Singlish as well, as I think there may be people there who could help. Thanks. Avriette 15:42, 18 January 2006 (UTC)