Talk:Cold War

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I find it amazing that an article on the Cold War makes no mention of the Cuban Missile Crisis. bob rulz 09:22, August 1, 2005 (UTC)

Fair point-- this was never a good article. Right now the survey of the history is found in the series, which appears in the box at the top right corner of the article. The Cuban Missile Crisis is covered in the page dealing with 1953 to 1962. 172 | Talk 20:36, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Real Battles - added again

On 4 August 2005 I made the following contribution - a new section called "Real Battles":

"For forty years the United States and the Soviet Union managed to keep a dangerous secret: they had actually been involved in direct battles. During the Korean War they had fought air battles for two and a half years, in which 1,700 American and Soviet pilots were killed. To both sides it was crucial that this was not made public, since it could very well have led to World War III. The air battles occured mostly in northwest Korea, south of the Jalu river, in an area called "Mig Alley" by the American pilots. The Soviet objective was to take down the American bomber planes and their escorts, primarily F-86 Sabre fighters, in order to protect the ground transports from China to the Chinese troops in Korea. Some estimate that the American airforce lost a quarter of its total number of bombers worldwide. In total, 3,500 American and 1,000 Soviet aircraft were shot down.

Why was this kept a secret? In 1992 the British journalist Jon Halliday interviewed Herbert Brownell, one of president Eisenhower's closest men. According to Brownell, it had to swept under the rug since it otherwise would have led to demands for an open war with Russia."

It was removed by "172" on the following grounds: (this new section reads like a personal essay. on the talk page you and other editors can discuss how to incorporate some of these facts in the series, as the section is not yet ready to be posted.)

I sincerely do not understand why it "reads like a personal essay". Of course, I am a person, and I wrote it. Please clarify: Is it badly written? Are the facts questionable? Are there any POV? What's the problem? I believe these facts are very important to incorporate into the Cold War article, since until I had read about it in a book, I had no idea that any real battle had taken place between US and USSR.

Regards, Dennis Nilsson. Dna-Dennis 01:55, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

• I have now added "Real Battles" again. Before this is removed, please motivate the removal here. Regards, Dna-Dennis 14:53, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

At a guess, it was removed because it reads rather sensationalist - more like a newspaper article ("managed to keep a dangerous secret") than an encyclopedia entry. Further, you have given no sources for assertions that are really quite extraordinary; you are talking about more pilots and planes lost than the total casualties in the Battle of Britain, on both sides! And these would be much more modern and expensive planes, at that. 1000 dead soldiers would be a major casualty list for a land battle, much less aircraft clashes. Please give some sources, preferably more than one, for this kind of thing. --King of Men 16:17, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

"arms race" in opening paragraph

i think the conventional and nuclear arms race b/w the two blocs shld be mentioned in the opening paragraph. -- Doldrums 16:13, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

List of political figures

I suggest we simply list Category:Cold War people in the See also section, why manually duplicate it in this already long article? In case there is a consensus to keep it, the title needs to be downcased as per WP:NC#Lowercase second and subsequent words. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 09:38, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Third World War

There were several books on this subject during the Cold War period - mostly claiming (IIRC) that the West was losing to the Communists (for a variety of reasons, some of which have since been shown to be false). All that Wikipedia has on the subject is a computer game. Can something be developed?

The topic of why these predictions were wrong would be an interesting line of research (if Wikipedia decides to adopt such activities).

Jackiespeel 16:38, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

(Delete when done): Archive 3 has been vandalised (it appears): can someone resolve the matter as appropriate.

The Map is wrong

The map shows Iraq as pro-Soviet. The map claims it's an accurate depiction until 1959. This is very misleading because Iraq only became pro-Soviet in 1958. Prior to that it was the leading member of the Baghdad Pact (NATO but for central-south Asia). I think the map should be removed or changed to be more accurate. In the first stage of the Cold War, Iraq is very much pro-West.

I changed "up until" to "in" in order to eliminate confusion. CJK 21:35, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

To Katrina&TheWaves/LittleDeadBuddy/24.0.91.81 (assuming these accounts have been operated by the same editor

Regarding your edits on Cold War, please read Wikipedia:Neutral Point of View. The terms "free world" and "communist totalitarian regimes" are not value neutral; nor are they even clear and accurate descriptions of the often-changing and diffuse alliances that took shape throughout the Cold War period. Western-style democracies like India, for example, would at times lean closer to the Soviets while some Communist states like Tito's Yugoslavia and China following its normalization of relations with the U.S. would toward the Americans. Please discuss your changes if you're unclear of the broad survey of Cold War history instead of continuing to revert back to the problem version. 172 | Talk 18:08, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia should be neutral #but# reference should be made to the fact that terms such as "free world" and "ctr" were used at the time - and the terms that were used from the actually-existing-Communist viewpoints (to use a phrase).

Archive 3 is still vandalised (or has been revandalised since I last looked there).

Jackiespeel 21:20, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

The terms were used at the time in Cold War propaganda, just as the Soviet bloc referred to itself as "the people's democracies." Please use neutral terminology in accord with Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy. 172 | Talk 07:05, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

There are two points - the terminology used at the time - which was not Neutral Point of View, and Wikipedia which should be. Reference should be made to the former and discussed as appropriate (the point which I was making): and there are some topics which will arouse strong feelings even among those who are otherwise neutral (including Richard III and similar long term disputes).

I note the other problem has been resolved.

Jackiespeel 20:59, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

User:Shran and the dispute tag

At the time of this posting, User:Shran is the latest of the series of new and anon accounts to place a dispute tag in this article without offering an explanation of exactly what is in dispute on talk. I have removed the tag, as there can be no dispute and thus no dispute tag without a statement of what specifically is in dispute. To clear up the matter as quickly as possible, I also notified this editor individually on his/her talk page. [1] 172 | Talk 13:00, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Again we have 24.0.91.81 reinserting the dispute tag with no explanation. I made yet another request to know what's going on on the talk page of his/her anon IP range. Looking through this editor's user talk history, it's kind of revealing to find Willmcw's warning against the usage of sockpuppets from about a month ago. [2]. It seems like we're dealing with yet another set of sockpuppets associated with the same IP range. 172 | Talk 00:42, 29 September 2005 (UTC) what are the causes?

Nuclear warfare

This article obviously needs a good and proper cleanup; I just wish I knew more about the subject so that I could help - I thought I'd just point out that Nuclear warfare has a section of some 2000 words on the Cold War - probably too much; either way they need to complement each other. I'll be campaigning for this article's featureing on the Article Improvement Drive. --BigBlueFish 22:06, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Beginning of the article (before the Contents section)

What's up with the beginning of the article (where the introduction paragraph is on nearly all Wikipedia articles, followed by the Contents)? It's overly long and improperly formatted. I looked in the recent history to see if it was some kind of mistake, but apparently it's been there. Is there any particular reason why it's left like this? Am I missing something? --Iten 07:03, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

this article is incompetent

the first half of the article is incompetent and illiterate, full of howlers (like Greece and Turkey were Communist), It has to be redone from scratch. As it stands it's the worst history article I have seen in Wiki. Rjensen 08:10, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

The article wasn't nearly as bad a few days ago. Much of the contents were replaced by a series of personal essays that went unnoticed and did not get reverted right away. I restored the established version of the article, which is not great, but at least much better. 172 08:14, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks--you have improved it! It still needs lots of work, Rjensen 08:15, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

After those recent edits, blanking the article would have been an improvement! I restored an older version, which itself was never too good. For a while I've been wanting to write a new version of the article with a structure similar to the one you laid out in the (much needed) literature review toward the bottom. In the meantime, this article requires daily vigilance or incompetent edits, such as those recent howlers about Communists in Greece and Turkey. 172 08:40, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Contribution!

Here is a summary of certain events in the Cold War. Read through and pick out the events that lacks in your own article, f.ex. The Vietnam War and The Iron Curtain.

The Iron Curtain: Winston Churchill, the British leader at that time, was the first to warn of the USSR communistic expansion into Europe. In a speech, he uses the expression ‘iron curtain’ to explain what was going on in east –Europe: From Stettin by the Baltic-coast to Trieste by the Aegean Sea, an iron curtain has been drawn, right through the Continent. Behind that line lays all the Capitals of central - and Eastern Europe. […] The Communism Parties, which all are in minor, searches everywhere to reach dictatorial power. This is definitively not the emancipated Europe we fought to raise. Truman agreed with Churchill. What were really Stalin’s plans? The communistic parties were the greatest in both France and Italy. The Western Powers could not compete with the army of the Soviet Union. The US had sent home most of the troops. Would entire Europe soon turn communistic? That was what the US feared. The Iron curtain went from German Baltic coast; it divided Germany in two parts (the West and the East), before it continued by the Czechoslovakia – Austrian border, and between Yugoslavia and Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and Albany. All states located east of the iron curtain, belonged to the East Block (Albany changed side in 1968), and all located west of the line, belonged to the West Block. Germany was the only country which had been divided on both sides of the line (this was because of intern problems). This happened when the NATO – alliance was formed. Stalin, on his hand, forced by power all states within the block to worship communism. This was a big threat to the West, and USA, Britain, France tried to attack Soviet; but without succeeding.

It was not only in Europe the war took place. A parallel warfare was also degenerated in Asia, especially Korea, China, and Vietnam, and in the former European colonies. The well-known Vietnam War is closely linked to the Cold War. In Vietnam, there was a communistic govern, ruled by Ho Chi Minh, and most people were communists (in opposition to Greece and Turkey). North – Vietnam (Vietnam was divided into North and South in the same year as the Warsaw Patch was signed) was a former French colony, and after the 2.World War, France wanted to regain their rule there. The Vietnams wouldn’t agree to that, and the French was defeated. In South – Vietnam, things went on a little different: The Government had not much support among the people because it was corrupt and ineffective. A communistic rebellion movement was established: Vietcong. Most people in the south were non-communistic, but also here the riots were looked up upon. The community in South – Vietnam asked USA of help against the communists in the north, and they chose to fulfil the demand; in the American election campaign in 1964, the President, Lyndon B. Johnson, said: An Asia threatened by a communistic government will put even the safety of USA in danger. He was elected President with a great gram the plural. Now, a massive war against the communistic guerrilla in Vietnam began. The newest technological weapons of the richest state in the world was put into use on pour Vietnamese warriors; heavily armed helicopters, missiles, machine guns, but above all; the dreadful weapon napalm! Napalm is burning fluid that was used on farms and acres as well as at the people. It burns through your skin like liquid plastic, even under water! You die instantly if you get some of it on your body. Even today, USA is criticized because of their warfare in Vietnam, forty years ago. Here in Norway, as in many other countries, we strongly desisted from the Vietnam War.

Summary:
1950ies – The French loses in north against Ho Chi Minh, who gets help from China (another communistic state).
1964 – The American President, L. B. Lyndon, sends soldiers to South – Vietnam to fight the communists in the North.
1968 – The American troops has now reached over 500 000 men. It is major protests against the American warfare in USA and Europe. Richard Nixon, the new President, promises to quit the war; bring the boys home.
1973 – Armistice. The American troops leave Vietnam.
1974 – The peace – negotiations collapses. The War breaks lose again.
1975 – North – Vietnam conquers south – Vietnam, and the Americans leave the country for good. Vietnam is united under a communistic govern.

Vemund 19:08, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

People's Republic of China

Why is PR of China shown as an ally of the Soviet Union on the map? China was always viewed as a wild card in the whole thing. While they were Communist, they didn't exactly agree with the USSR and during the 1980s (at least) it was thought that if the US and the USSR did go to war, they could possibly wind up on either side if they got involved at all. I do know that at least Albania (and possibly others) weren't really viewed as in the Soviet sphere of influence, they in the Chinese.Rt66lt 21:12, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't like the maps myself. Still, the map is accurate on the matter you point out above. The map deals with the year 1959, when China and the Soviet Union were still maintaining an image of alliance, though the deep rifts were becoming increasingly evident to some of the more astute Western observers at the time. 172 21:31, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Historiography

I have recently written a revised section of the cold war Historiography section for it to be returned to its previous state.

I would like to put forward my case; what the other author has done is use what is know a ten year old method of thinking about the Cold War. The "Three Camps" approach was fine up untill the post war history were it now no longer applies in the say way.

The most obvious error i corrected was the Gaddis as a post-revisionst; he blames the cold war on Stalin how is that in anyway post-revisionst. He was once but that is a out of date, he is catagorically no longer in that camp.

My entry was based upon the writings of several emminent historians, unfortunalty its not published on the web but i would be happy to provide names if needs be.

See Wikipedia:No original research. Personal essays critiquing the traditional scholarly approaches on the Cold War are not appropriate on Wikipedia. The insertions of comments like "to paraphrase Freddy Mercury ... superpowers always fight" does not inspire too much confidence in your edits to the historiography section. 172 22:03, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

My entry is by no means a personal critique, when do i critisise the any of the works, i merely explain them in more depth showing how there is more than just one orthodox theory. Weather or not you like the "superpowers always fight" comment or not is beside the point, i would be happy to agree to its removal as it's most likely not appropriate, nevertheless it does help to explain the phrase "super power rivialry" with out course to bias.

The issue i have with your attempt is both its lack of depth and its complete admission of the new cold war history, which is obviously essential as it was written ten years ago it is hardly untested!

In refrence to the no original research i would be more than happy to provide names and books which i have taken all of this information from, i assure you i have made no orginal research, just me and a few texts which discuss the topic!

I unfortunatly feel that you will not agree with me and i not with you is there a way to apply for arbitration? I feel a revert war is rather sad waste of time!

It would be most usefull if another wikipedian could take a look at the situation for us!TGoldsmith 23:18, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

TGoldsmith, this is just the general Cold War entry. There are thousands of related entries on the subject and three entries in a series on Cold War history. The longstanding breakdown of Cold War historiography into traditionalist, revisionist, and post-revisionist camps is still dominant, making your edits quite idiosyncratic. Hence the fact that the classic surveys on the Cold War by Gaddis and LaFeber are still the most commonly found texts found in college course syllabi on the Cold War, which I follow closely since I teach classes on the Cold War and assign Gaddis and LaFeber quite often. 172 00:36, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Why do you teach only what is clearly old hat? surely it is right to mention we know know, it is considered a valid interpretaion is it not? Gaddis himself has pointed to the fact that there is "old" cold war history and his attempts at post-revisionist were "ill-definied" and "mushy".

I dont doubt that they are on the college course syllabus, i know i am a student! but why does this make the "new" cold war history invalid??

Past research on any field of history is constantly critiqued. Such critiques are not at all unusual. For the purposes of this article, noting Gaddis' recent critiques of his own work are going into much way too much detail. Instead, we need to introduce a very basic overview of the historiography to readers who probably are not at all familiar with the historical literature. If you do not belive my claim that the surveys on the Cold War by LaFeber and Gaddis are still common on course syllabi, do a Google search reutring results from the .edu domain with key words "Cold War" and "syllabus" and confirm it for yourself.

You asked why you edits were idiosyncratic in an edit summary. First, the 1893 Bernstein quotation is interesting trivia, but completely irrelevant to an entry in the general Cold War article. Second, the Orwell quotation again is not relevant. His comments were not very notable at the time. Only with hindsight, as his popularity as an author grew, have they generated much interest. Third, starting the article off with an extended discussion of work by Anders Stephanson is inappropriate. I regard his work highly myself; however, he is not one of the most notable figures in the historiography. Forth, the note on the 'Korean peninsula remaining a Cold War hotspot' does not contribute much in the way of substance. Countless international disputes that flared up during the Cold War are still latent or active to this day. The proper place to discuss them is the section on the legacy of the Cold War toward the end of the Cold War history series. Finally, your apparently arbitrary removals of chunks of the historiography section do not inspire too much confidence in the merits of some of your attempted changes to article. 172 01:10, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

The Korean addition has nothing to do with me. The removal was hardly arbitrary what have those last two paragraphs got to do with the historiography exactly? TGoldsmith 23:23, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I believe that you restored the Korean addition in one or more of your edits. The last two paragraphs of the historiography section are relevant in that they explain why the post-revisionist school nevertheless accepts U.S. policy in Europe in the 1945-49 period as a necessary reaction to cope with instability in Europe, one of the key themes that generally sets the post-revisionists apart from the revisionists. 172 23:46, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes in your idosyncratic view!! TGoldsmith 00:13, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Insults are not going to be persuasive here. 172 00:20, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Then quit throwing them around yourself, and be a better Wikicitizen. 155.84.57.253 16:08, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Introduction and Definition

Thanks Fenice for that edit, I think that was the right move! TGoldsmith 23:32, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Please do not reinsert the photo of the atomic blast. It's too cliched and sensational. Besides, the Cold War never came to that. 172 00:38, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Why is it that all my edits are considered idosyncratic by one user and are remove, surely User: 172 has now broken the more that 4 reverts in 24 hours rule? TGoldsmith 22:59, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

The 3RR does not limit measures against possible sockpuppet vandalism. When an anonymous IP range such as 24.0.91.81 makes a sweeping change with an edit summary "revert control freak vandalism" without engaging in the discussion on talk, established users will assume that the IP range is a sockpuppet possibly vandalizing an article. Now, I already attempted to answer your question regarding why I consider your edits earlier idosyncratic. Please try to engage in those content concerns, as opposed to the personal ones. 172 23:54, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

My edits were not sockpuppet and you have broken that rule with me !

To be totaly honest the only reason you are behaving like this is because you have a sad attachment to what you ahve written on this page - I am so bored of you pathetic whinging that i will never bother contributing to this page again, let the Cold War entry be defined by one one outdated so-called historian! TGoldsmith 00:12, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I wrote most of the content in the Cold War series, but not on the Cold War page. Right now I am monitoring the page for problematic edits because no other established Wikipedia user is doing it. By the way, you may want to take note of Wikipedia:No personal attacks. 172 00:18, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Concept: AID-collaboration

Before having more revert wars, lets settle upon a basic concept for this article: What changes need to be made during the AID-collaboration, especially in terms of outline and contents?--Fenice 08:15, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

This is premature. As of this writing, the the article is not subject to an AID. The nomination may still fail. 172 08:29, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I really don't think it would hurt to discuss what changes might be undertaken if / when the article goes AID... Such discussion will assist the future direction of the article and its sub-articles even without AID status. Let's try to be more positive / proactive! Paul James Cowie 08:37, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

As I have suggested elsewhere, I believe some of the first changes that should be made would be within the overall periodisation, which bears huge relevance to many of the sub-articles. It seems odd that we have two reasonably short sub-periods, followed by a vast concluding period.... We need, I believe, a more finely-grained periodisation. Paul James Cowie 08:40, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I have tried, and failed to make worthwhile additions to this article due to the view of one user - hence the problem of wikipedia, tyranny of the person with the most time on his hands! The whole reason behind this article being a nomination for aid is that it is not good! How can constant reverts to old editions ever improve it!

I am more than happy to concede that some of my edits where not quite what were looking for but perhaps editing them is more appropriate that simple deletion.

On the point of the definition I offered, its not orginal research, it is a highly agreeable definition and it sheds light on exactly what the Cold War was 172 has called it idosyncratic, what part of my work was involved and how is it perosonal to me?. I would use a definiton from a more popular historian if there was one! TGoldsmith 13:13, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

The problem is simple. The solution is not. User 172 thinks he/she owns the page, and stifles any thought that doesn't conform with his/her own. 172 is not interested in collaboration, only domination. 155.84.57.253 14:44, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree completely! I would most appreciate it if someone would take the time to compare each of our entrys and see if mine has any merit because accoding to 172 it dosent. Perhaps it would be a good idea to briefly summise the historiography on the front page and then inculde a more detailed article? TGoldsmith 15:22, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

TGoldsmith, I already explained to you why your edits were idyosincratic in my 01:10, 18 January 2006 post. You have not engaged in those concerns. The echo by 155.84.57.253, who may or may not be a sockpuppet, is not persuasive. 172 22:58, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Now you are entering into the sublime - accusing me of using a sockpuppet! this is offensive and i would kindly ask you to retract that comment unless you have some evidence! which i can assure you there wont be!

I feel your concern is not a legitimate one my edits are not idosyncratic, that definition is widely excepted by virtually every published historian, i certianly have never heard and strong dissagreements with it - would you care to point them out to me if there are any than just saying idosyncratic, idosyncratic, idosyncratic to any thing up there. To be honest i feel as if i could put the sun shines in the day and you would call it idosyncratic - irrelevant maybe, certainly not idosyncratic. TGoldsmith 23:05, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I am not accusing you of being a sockpuppet. I was referring to 155.84.57.253. This page chronically attracts sockpuppets an anonymous IP ranges, which is what I am keeping in mind. Your edits were idosyncratic because of the insertion of a coincidence of random pieces of information that are not directly relevant to the summaries provided in prominent parts of the article. For example, the Bernstein and Orwell references in the intro may be interesting anecdotes to start off an essay on the Cold War; but they are off topic in the intro of an encyclopedia's general article on the Cold War. 172 23:42, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

What is wrong with the definition though? TGoldsmith 00:09, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

A "definition" section is not standard to the WP:MOS. Further, the contents of the section were redundant considering the content already contained in the intro and the historical overview. 172 00:16, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Oxymoronic (?) Adjectives in Introduction

The adjectives "open yet restricted" have previously been applied to the Cold War within the introduction this article. This may appear to be oxymoron to some readers. Could the use of these adjectives be clarified / elaborated upon? Paul James Cowie 18:45, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

The opening sentence has been simplified, now referring to the post-World War II struggle between the United States and its allies and the Soviet Union and its allies. 172 23:05, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Would it perhaps be a good idea to change the word allies from the soviets and replace it with a more accurate term perhpas sphere of influnce or areas of distict soviet control. It is just that the word allies implies amicable agreement which i dont think the peoples of those countries would have seen it. TGoldsmith 23:09, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

No. Not all Soviet allies were describable as Soviet satellite states. Not even all Warsaw Pact-member states were describable as Soviet satellites. Romania under Ceausescu, most notably, often asserted an independent line on intenational affairs, with its close ties to China and denunciations of certain Soviet actions such as the invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968. 172 23:34, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

No but some of them were and certainly were not soveit allies! TGoldsmith 00:08, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

The regimes that controlled Warsaw Pact member states were aligned with the Soviet Union. The term does not necessarily carry the connotations that you seem to be suggesting. BTW, the Cold War entry in Encarta uses the term "allies" in the same context in its intro. [3] 172 00:14, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Introduction

I've been attempting to slightly expand the introduction to the Cold War article, building on what was there previously, generally clarifying the nature and range of the struggle and incorporating additional internal links to relevant articles. Unfortunately, my edits have not been debated, but rather reverted wholesale without discussion, together with a number of other editors contributions, similarly reverted. Could we engage in more discussion please, particularly as we approach a probable period of work under an AID? Paul James Cowie 08:31, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I welcome your input. I regret your statement that you'd felt as if some of your edits were reverted with excessive haste. When the page history of an article is as unstable as that of this article, at times edits get reverted with insufficient deliberation. I will take care to avoid that habit. I know that you are a legitimate contributor, as opposed to a one of the sockpuppet ranges like 155.84.57.253/24.0.91.81/Shran/et al vandalizing this article. I will make sure that I give your subsequent edits and input on the article proper consideration. 172 23:15, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Long list

The article has an extremely long list of books and other materials which are not refernced in the article. This seems to be a violations of "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information" from Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. As such, I propose removing this list.Ultramarine 13:03, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

If the list seems unreasonable long, then don't read all the books. The goal here is to point users to the main authoritative studies that cover most of the world over 40+ years. The is NOT an indiscriminate grab-bag. I activelt searched for authoritative references, by going through the scholarly reviews and surveys and chose the most-recommended titles. (I did not include my own recent book on the Cold War.) The Wiki rules call for 1) using the standards of the relevant discipline (history and international relations), and 2) "In general, even if you are writing from memory, you should actively search for authoritative references to cite." I prepared the list on the assumption that people who are seriously interested in the Cold War -- or who have to write a history or political science termpaper--would appreciate help on where to turn for more depth than an encyclopedia can provide. Rjensen 15:01, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

If any of the material is used as reference for the article, then use the appropriate standard for Wikipedia citation. In particular, there should be an inline reference to a particular source. Otherwise is should be removed as per the Wikipedia policy. However, I can accept that we move it to a special list article. Ultramarine 15:18, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

History articles need bibliographies, and this one now has one. As for references, several hundred previous contributors ignored the rule of putting in their sources--hardly anyone did. The article covers one of the longest and most wide-ranging events in the last 200 years so we need to help users with resources they need. I just quoted the Wiki policy: in a nutshell it says GO OUT AND GET BEST SOURCES. So they definitely belong. Rjensen 15:42, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

That Wikipedia policy has been violated previously is no excuse for continuing to do it. Please use inline references. Again, I propose moving the section to special list article. It is very strange and not encyclopedic that an unexplained list of books is longer than the article itself. Ultramarine 15:44, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Therefore, I propose a bibliography of at most 10 good books, and preferably less, that may be of interest to a layman who want to learn more. Ultramarine 16:04, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Bibliographies are a necessary part of this article. Encyclopedias are designed to help readers and the bibliog does that, Why is it long? It is short: there are tens of thousands of books out there on the topic, and indeed too many for beginners to handle. Why is the article so short? Because this is the OVERVIEW historiographical article on the Cold War, not the detailed narratives that already are separate. I suggest we move instead the Documents. Any problems with that? Rjensen 15:55, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, there can be bibliography. But the current one is much too long, compare with other articles. Your list is by far too long for those who want to read more, Wikipedia is primarily for the public, not for an academic researcher with unlimited time and interest. I do agree that we should move the documents. Ultramarine 16:02, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Therefore, I propose a bibliography of at most 10 good books, and preferably less, that may be of interest to a layman who want to learn more. Ultramarine 16:04, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree with Rjensen; for this particular topic, the appropriate bibiography is considerably longer than it would be for most articles. The documents are more appropriate to move to subarticles.--ragesoss 16:41, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, looking over it again, it is kind of excessive, considering that it has separate lists for many separate aspects and periods which might be better left to the subarticles. That, and the bibliography doesn't even include William Appleman Williams, even though that is probably still one of the most influential origins of the Cold War books. And I'm not sure about calling the three historiography division "periods". Williams wrote in 1959, and Gaddis and others were still doing "traditional" Cold War history into the 70s.--ragesoss 16:55, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I moves the sources. As for how many books--the idea is not that people will read all of them! Rather that they will zero in on a subtopic and want to follow it in depth. If they want a survey, those are listed too. If they don't want to read a book, they can ignore the bibliography. Who is Wiki for? Actually it has thousands of reasonably technical articles and that is its strength. Wiki is "for the public" yes, and for 15 million college students writing papers. Generally profs insist that students use books (see the discussions on H-TEACH on www.h-net.msu.edu for evidence) and therefore they need bibliographies. Rjensen 18:14, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you overall. But I do think that the more narrow books would be more appropriate for the subarticles. And in general, the article should point people to the best places to start, the most authoritative or influential works, rather than supply a complete bibliography. Too many choices can be overwhelming and actually reduce the usefulness of the article to students writing papers.--ragesoss 19:13, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I think we're agreed. the Big bibliographies run 20 to 100 pages, but I tried to give 10-20 books per section. Students at small colleges will discover their library only has a couple of these books...and those at big universities will discover most are checked out! Rjensen 19:21, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for adding the Williams stuff, btw. Shouldn't Tragedy of American Diplomacy be under the origins section rather than historiography? I realize that it is mainly of interest historiographically (i.e., it was the foundation of a massive amount of further work, much of it by Williams's students) but the book itself is more historical argument than historiographical analysis, and I think a fair number of historians still accept the book's general premise, despite the rise of post-revisionism (at least, my professor did in the class where I wrote a Cold War historiography paper).--ragesoss 19:27, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Maybe there should be a separate Cold War historiography article; if there is any topic that would merit a separate article just on historiography, this is it, as the different ways of writing about and conceptualizing the Cold War are significant in and of themselves.--ragesoss 19:27, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

William can of course go either way--I suspect most historians today look at Williams as of historiographical importance and cite later works on specific historical episodes. This Cold War article has become historiography, as well it should. Question: Should we spin off ARMS RACE as a separate article (where people are more likely to find it). It is even more a miltary history topic than diplomatic. Rjensen 19:31, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I think the Cold War article could do with a couple more spin-offs, Arms Race among them. I would also say Origins of the Cold War (reaching back to before WWII) could be separate from the first temporal article.--ragesoss 19:37, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Nuclear arms race already exists; it should probably be incorporated into the Cold War series.--ragesoss 19:45, 21 January 2006 (UTC) (It needs some heavy copyediting, though.)--ragesoss 19:50, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Ultramarine, Rjensen's list is not unreasonably long. It is broken up into distinct areas of study of the Cold War, with the main authoritative studies that cover each area listed under the sub-heading. Please do not remove the contents of the reading list. 172 20:44, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I support ragesoss proposal to create a separate historiography article. Ultramarine 20:47, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

A main article on the historiography is a great idea. The existing section on the historiography in the Cold War article will serve as the summary of a main article on the historiography. 172 20:56, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

In case someone is going to write an historiography article, I've put an old paper I wrote (on historiography of the origins of the cold war) on my talk page: User:Ragesoss/Cold War. It's not great by any stretch, probably biased in significant ways, too detailed, and too colloquial, but some of it may be salvagable (or not). I don't know enough about Cold War historiography to assess its merit, but for someone who does, a few parts of it may save them some writing.--ragesoss 21:21, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! that will help. I hope to work on the historiography soon. Rjensen 21:26, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Cold War Beginnings in 1945 and not 1947?

I think someone should take the time to go through the online documents at the UK national archives, for instance the war cabinet meetings protocols. I unfortunately, have to make a living, so time is limited.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/releases/2006/january/january1/review.htm

At the Cabinet meeting in April 1945 the PM welcomed representatives of the Dominions to the meeting during which they reviewed the world situation. The PM and Jan Smuts, the South African Prime Minister, made some interesting comments on how they saw the world at the time:

P.M.

R. relations have deteriorated since Yalta…Hope we shall get through: but only by unity. New balance (or lack of balance) of power in Europe. These are the dominating world facts. How can we match them? Only by our superior statecraft & experience & above all by our Unity… Smuts. …World needs our maturity & experience. Danger of power suddenly acquired w´out experience & mature responsibility – exemplified by Germany & Japan. Hope won´t be true of U.S. & Russia. We have renounced Imperialism. But what of the economic imperialism of U.S.A. & the ideological imperialism of U.S.S.R. Eire is a warning tht. we may easily break up, as did Roman Empire.

W.M.(45)39th Meeting held on 3 April 1945.

At the meeting of the caretaker Cabinet in June 1945 the PM gave his views of de Gaulle and the Russian advance into the heart of central Europe. The latter is almost a forerunner of his Iron Curtain speech:

P.M.

But no hope of trustworthy relations with France until we are rid of de Gaulle. This advance of R. into heart of central Europe will be one of most terrible events in history. Don´t believe they will willingly go back at least in this generation. 10 European capitals fall into R. hands.

W.M.(45)7th Meeting held on 11 June 1945. Stor stark7 23:07, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Origins of term "COLD WAR"

Is there a reference to it being a 600 year old term? George Orwell used it specifically to the developing international relationships wrt the development of the atomic bomb (read the essay on his page!), the USSR was included in this. It seems absurd to suggest that it wasn't in reference to what we call the "cold war"! it couldn't have been anything else!. "General usage" is also POV terminolgy, "general usage" with respect to whom exactly? The term in the context of post WWII international relationships and the atomic bomb was first used by George Orwell. I edited the page to reference that, almost anyone can be claimed to have "popularised" the term or brought it into "general usage", is there going to be an argument between advocates of Baruch and Lippmann regading which individual was the most "famous" or "important" (and hence deserves credit for bringing it to the attention of the hoi polloi?). The page is about what happened post WWII, the first person to use the term in the context of those times and events was Orwell.

Surely the most obvious and non-pov statement to make would be to state 'who said it first' and leave it at that. I don't want to get into a revert war over this, so im not re-editing anything until some sort of discussion has taken place. All thoughts welcome, etc. 82.46.144.194 21:33, 28 January 2006 (UTC)