Talk:Magda Goebbels

Goebbels Children Death Method??

The Wiki on Untergang says that the Goebbels children died as a result of a gunshot wound after morphine had been administered. This article on Magda says it was morphine and cyanide caps. Any comments on which one is justifiably correct? Can anyone quote an authoritative source. I remember seeing a History Channel show that included death pictures of the girls, and none showed any evidence of major wounds. Stringbean 17:54, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Otto Meissner, Anja Klabunde, Traudl Junge AND the actual movie Untergang say morphine and oral cyanide, the only query is whether the morphine was administered orally or by injection. I have never seen a source, good or bad, suggest a gunshot. --Zeraeph 00:02, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Misc Text

Wouldn't Karl Dönitz' wife (if he had one; his article didn't mention anything) be the "First" Lady? "First" describes something related to the head of state, rather than the head of government (i.e. Joseph Goebbels). --Sesel 06:04, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Hoover rumour

Someone put in the bit about Hoover's nephew. I asked for a source, and they said it was David Irving. Then I realized I'd read it somewhere else but can't remember where. The Irving citation comes from his book on Goebbels which is from his later period. Not including anything having to do with his creepy Holocaust denials, early Irving can be somewhat reliable and interesting, though not always scholarly. Later Irving is wontedly unreliable and sloppy, corroboration is always needed. I've characterized this as a rumour since I don't mind seeing raw gossip from Irving that I've heard elsewhere, but it's a bit dodgy. Wyss 15:18, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Goebbels family picture..

Is that family picture with the uniformed "Son" in the background doctored? I thought that the family consisted of six young children. It looks almost fake, or photoshopped in. Can someone confirm the picture?

It's a true picture. Magda had an older son named Harald Quandt, by Dr. Quandt (he served in the Luftwaffe and was in Berlin on leave when the picture was taken). She murdered her six children by Joseph Goebbels but his stepson survived. It's not a great scan, looks to me like it's been shrunk and enlarged once, maybe that's why it looks odd. Also, try getting a snap of six squirming kids and three adults sometime without picking up some strange facial expressions :) By all accounts they were happy, bright children, it's a horrific story. Wyss 12:55, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

It may be a true picture, but that image of their son is definitely composited. The lighting on his face is too harsh for him to have been present (compare to the lighting elsewhere). I remember reading an explanation for this once - that he couldn't be present, or similar - but cannot remember where.

Ludwig

(I removed overt references to Untergang, it is not history, it is a film, it doesn't deserve a paragraph of its own) It was my understanding that Ludwig Stumpfegger left the bunker on May 1st, how then would he have been involved in the murder of the children the night of the 1st/2nd? It seems unlikely that he was involved beyond the initial morphine doseage, since the residents of the bunker all had cyanide capsules, there is no reason to think that Stumpfegger needed to be there during the cyanide poisoning, and unless I'm missing something, history seems to support that he left on the 1st. Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 00:14, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Theres a wrong information in this article

She didnt commited suicide,she was killed by Mr. Goebbels...That should be noted,since the article say she commited suicide,while its a historical fact that Mr. Goebbels killed her and then himself.Maybe she agreed to be killed,but its still not a suicide.Someone should fix that.

YXYX 02:50, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

No I think its a subject of controversy. I have found at least one source [1] saying she poisoned herself. nadav 04:14, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Well,if 10 sources say she was killed and only one say she poisoned herself,then we should write that she was killed,but mention that theres a controversy about it,not the otherwise...Dont you think?

YXYX 08:10, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

That is true. Can you find sources to back you up? If you can establish that there is a certain majority opinion, then we can change the article. As it is, the article indicates that the accounts are contradictory:

The details of their suicides are uncertain. One SS officer later said they each took cyanide and were then shot by an SS trooper. An early report said they were machine-gunned to death at their own request. According to another account, Joseph shot Magda and then himself (this idea is presented in the movie Downfall).

Maybe most witnesses back the latter account; if you can point me to a secondary source about this controversy I would be glad. nadav 09:45, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

HAHAHA THE NEW PICTURE IS FUNNY AS HELL......You claim that she commited suicide,then you show a picture of her being shot at.....How is that called a suicide,when someonw shoot you,even if you agreed on it,it still isnt a suicide.....The words under the picture are also hilarious: "Suicide" hehhe,how is that a suicide when someone shoot you? YXYX 06:10, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Please notice that the picture is a still from a film that is historical fiction. It depicts a version of the events chosen by the movie's creators. nadav 00:51, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Getting the facts straight

If this article were covered by WP:LIVING I suspect that at LEAST User:Addiderfuhrer would be raising cain on a regular basis on Jimbo's talk page!

Trouble is that, as far as I can tell, everything that was ever generally known about Magda was a little fuzzy, and perhaps deliberately and expeditiously so, whether instigated by Auguste Behrend (her, I suspect, somewhat redoubtable mother), Josef Goebbels or Magda herself. In the context of the times, Magda had a tendency to be a bit of a scandal, starting young, with the circumstances of her birth. In 1901, illegitimacy was a terrible disgrace (illegitimate people could not become Catholic Priests or even join some countries civil services, there were countries in which they could not marry) and a single mother would be viewed as beyond salvage, but whether Magda was illegitimate or not has never been made completely clear.

Even the most, apparently, reputable sources seem to trace back to vintage rumor mills, and the likes of David Irving and Anja Klabunde seem determined to present her as a prototype for "The Nazi Wives Club" (including, but not limited to, the existance of a bespectacled, gun toting, Zionist lover).

I think the article needs to recognise and present that ambiguity, with as many sources as possible, even when they may not be entirely reliable in the usual sense, presented as the suggestions and rumors they are. I have the Meisener bio in the way to me, which may present sources for some of the information that is unsourced here, but it cannot be taken as a reliable source on anything he did not see for himself, because he could only write whatever he believed to be true, and what he believed to be true about Magda's earlier life may have had no basis in fact at all. --Zeraeph 21:02, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

If I knew anything about this, I would help you. The references are almost entirely in German, so I suspect this article was translated from the German Wikipedia. So that explains the total lack of inline citations. I don't know what the best English secondary sources are for info on her life. nadav 23:52, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

My German is not exactly "haute", but it also seems to me that it was translated from the German article, which totally lacks inline citations too, though there is a reference section. But "guess where the reference goes" is a tricky game even in a language I can speak! :o/ Still maybe there are a few citations to be had. --Zeraeph 00:47, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Interesting Variations

I did check the German article properly and it seems to have a totally different slant in terms of the part Magda played in the presentation of propaganda and her role as a Nazi Ideal. Though without inline citations, the article seems to have excellent sources.

It mentions that she drank (to, at least, sources suggest, a degree of excess) smoked, was a frequent flyer in terms of "Sanatariums" (I don't blame her!) and the sources suggest that she had at least three documented abortions. The French article is similar (I have seen it stated that Magda spoke French far more naturally than German, having been primarily raised in that language in Brussels) was extremelly ambitious and the only woman with whom Hitler discussed policy (lucky Magda! :o/ ). Though it does pay more attention to Arlosoroff.

It seems that a degree of POV has been creeping in, though perhaps not the fault of the editors? As the English language sources do tend to sanitise and romanticise Magda in a way the European sources do not. Conversely, the European sources present her ability and emancipation in a way the English sources do not.--Zeraeph 13:36, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

That really is interesting. My theory is that most or many editors were introduced to her life through the the German movie Der Untergang, and so have injected some Hollywood into her bio. Thanks a lot for the great cleanup job! nadav (talk) 15:00, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Don't let David Irving off the hook! I think he even managed to extend Lída Baarová by about 18 inches so that she could tower over Geobbels (which reminds me, still SO much more work to be done on this article, it is nowhere near complete without any mention of "engelchen's" little "hobbies and interests" and the devastating toll they took)!

Meissener was interesting and very informative. You have to allow for his consideration and diplomacy, Arlosoroff was, for example, probably described in far greater and more dashing detail than anywhere else, but only after chopping 5 years off his age, assuring the reader that he could not be identified because he was still alive with a wife and children in Europe, and coyly referring to him as "Ernest"! (DEFINATELY on the edges of WP:RS to cite THAT! But on the other hand, she hardly made a habit of associating with young men who acted out their distress through the irresponsible use of firearms!) You also have to allow for the fact that, as Magda was an aquaintance of his mother's, his personal memories were, somewhat, filtered through what was considered "comme il faut devant les enfants" :o) Bluntly, how much do ANY of us get to know about the more controversial aspects of the personal lives of our honorary "Aunties" (or Uncles). Even so, his account of other aspects of those he describes rings very true. For instance, he mentions that Magda suffered from Trigeminal Neuralgia in her face (which has yet to go into the article) which, I discover is a truly devastating condition that, while generally benign, is considered to generate the most intense pain of any condition, sporadically, and largely without warning. Having, as far as I can tell, briefly suffered a variety of something very similar for a (mercifully short) while many years ago, I can attest that this would definately tend to turn your head inside out whenever it manifested, and predispose the individual to self medicate with literally ANYTHING (which, of course is, at this point WP:OR). He also interviewed Magda's otherwise rather elusive and mysterious mother Auguste Behrend, and provides, at least, a faint impression of the person she was. Between nthe lines (which DEFINATELY does not conform to WP:RS) are some fascinating hints at the rest of the story. --Zeraeph 18:13, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Magda Goebbels & The Nephew of Herbert Hoover

"President Hoover did not have a nephew named Herbert Hoover. He had only one nephew, his sister's son Van Ness Hoover Leavitt. Leavitt worked in the radio industry and married Dorothy Berry in 1928. They lived in Santa Monica, California. Leavitt did not have a close relationship with his uncle; it seems unlikely that he would have had the opportunity to meet Madga Quandt in 1927." Found here: http://www.fsmitha.com/reader/magda.htmlaltj1 17:54, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

That's a link to "reader comments" on a website, which wouldn't be taken as a reliable source. The article text on this is cited to Otto Meißner's book about her, so it's strongly verifiable, true or not. Gwen Gale (talk) 12:05, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Mail delivery

From the article:

Two days earlier, Magda wrote a farewell letter to her son Harald Quandt, who was in a POW camp in North Africa.

Did she address it to him at the POW camp? Did he receive it there? Did mail travel from a neighborhood in Berlin surrounded then by Allied troops to places remote from there? Michael Hardy (talk) 04:47, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Known For?

I removed "loyalty to Adolf Hitler" from the "Known for" summary in the colored box at the top right of the page. In this same article, under the section headed "War Years," there are two examples (from as early on in the war of 1942 and 1944) of Mrs. Goebbels allegedly criticizing Hitler in words that would have put a less well-connected person in Nazi Germany in grave danger of being sent off to a concentration camp-- and many a well-connected German got sent to the camps for words of that kind, too. If Mrs. Goebbels actually said these things, it actually puts her towards the front of the pack of famous Nazis as far as turning on Hitler goes, rather than making her noteworthy as a Hitler-buddy. For instance, in Speer's memoir, he describes Keitel and Bormann as sucking up to Hitler until almost the very last moment of disaster for Hitler's regime, and describes himself as being fascinated with and mesmerized by Hitler until their last face-to-face meeting (and this last meeting was even months after Speer decided that Hitler did a lot of things wrong, disobeyed and even tried to thwart the execution orders Hitler thought were important enough to have other people shot for not executing quickly enough, and, he claimed, plotted to kill Hitler).

Therefore, although she may have known Hitler well and admired him at one point (many people did), I think it's inappropriate for her article, out of all the Wikipedia articles about particular people, to state "known for being loyal to Adolf Hitler" in such a prominent place on the page. The sentence towards the beginning of the article stating that she was his close friend and ally strikes me as only borderline acceptable, as well.

Granted, it's horrible and a shame for anyone to have had such a close relationship to Hitler and to have supported him at all, but it doesn't seem to jibe exactly with the evidence on this page to sum up the importance of this particular WWII-era German's life as "loyalty to Hitler." Her real significance is that she was Goebbels' wife.