Template talk:Wiktionary redirect

See also: Wikipedia talk:Soft redirect, where this template is also discussed.

Reason for recreation

I saw that this was deleted in July 2004 by User:Timwi because "I've added this to MediaWiki:Noarticletext". Clearly that solution is sub-optimal, because the noarticletext says "perhaps" there is an article at Wiktionary. This template is to be used when there is *definitely* an article at Wiktionary. I hope this explains my reasons for undeletion and restoration of the places that used it. Pcb21| Pete 18:44, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Renaming

This is the first I've ever heard of this template, and I really like it (see my comments on Wikipedia talk:Soft redirect). If the deletion policy is updated to use this template instead of nuking dicdefs:{{wiktionary}} should be moved to {{dicdef}};{{wi}} should be moved to {{wiktionary}} • Benc • 10:37, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• Sounds good to me. Pcb21| Pete 11:12, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • For convenience, please keep template names as short as possible.--Patrick 01:00, 2004 Sep 1 (UTC)
    • You're right. Suggestion to rename withdrawn. • Benc • 03:06, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
      • I think "wi" may be a little *too* short... hard to guess what it means... "wikt" maybe? Pcb21| Pete 03:52, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
        • OK. Note however that one rarely has to guess what a template name means, one can see how the template is rendered.--Patrick 09:23, 2004 Sep 2 (UTC)
      • I vote to make it "wiktionary" (replacing the present redirect). This template is the most appropriate one to use that name. -- Netoholic @ 21:31, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• I think it should be something like "wikt" or "wiktionary2". "Wi" is just too ubiquitous, to me. Though I suppose it wouldn't have a need to direct to any other project than Wiktionary, I suppose. Phoenix-forgotten 01:55, 2005 Apr 25 (UTC)

Special:Shortpages

This template makes Special:Shortpages less useful since all articles using this template show up on that list. Angela. 01:31, Sep 4, 2004 (UTC)

• What is the threshold (Kb)? -- Netoholic @ 21:31, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • There is no threshold. Special:Shortpages is simply the list of the 1000 smallest pages in the main namespace. • Benc • 22:07, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • Gotcha. Looks like we just have to get the message up above about 100 bytes/characters. -- Netoholic @ 22:33, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Does the count include the text of the template, or only the four characters needed to put the template into the article? RickK 22:34, Sep 5, 2004 (UTC)
  • Just checked, and it looks like it only counts the characters used to insert the template. I really hope we don't have to use "subst".-- Netoholic @ 22:56, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • I just thought of a hack to work around the problem: add a space-filling comment directed towards editors on every soft redirect page. Example at Red-handed. Of course, this is a minor waste of space, and it's a silly workaround at heart, so I'm a little ambivalent about recommending it as a solution. • Benc • 23:09, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • I doubt that would work long term. Is there an way to modify how Special:Shortpages is generated, to eliminate any pages with only template content (anything wrapped in "{{ }}")? -- Netoholic @ 23:38, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
      • That sounds like a better long-term solution. It would be relatively easy to implement by modifying the MediaWiki code. You could put in a feature request at Sourceforge [1], but it might be best to discuss it first on m:MediaWiki feature request and bug report discussion and/or the mailing list — major changes to Special pages have a way of generating unexpected side effects. • Benc • 01:05, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
        • This is now reported as Feature request 455. Angela. 14:24, Sep 11, 2004 (UTC)

This is horrible

We shouldn't just have this notice on pages. Since when do we decide that there should never be an article with a certain name??? Because that's what that notice basically does. I don't like dicdefs on wikipedia at all, but this is going to the extreme. Dori | Talk 20:10, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)

No it doesn't at all and I don't understand why you think it does. If for whatever reason (changing policy on Wikipedia, external factors changing) that an article is more appropriate than a redirect to Wiktionary, simply overwrite the template with the article. Pcb21| Pete 20:28, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

First because it doesn't appear as a red link, second, because newcomers may not know that they can just get rid of this message and write something there. Dori | Talk 20:32, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)

Eh, a blue link means that an article on that subject is not allowed? We expect newcomers to learn a million and one things, this one is no different, and in practice this template is only used in borderline cases, so the number of overwritings is likely to be small. Pcb21| Pete 20:40, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

A blue link means that an article exists, anyone following the link will instead just see a page directing them only to the wiktionary, thus discouraging the creating of an article there. We all know that red links stimulate the creation of articles, and that dic defs are the easiest for newcomers to create, and that this notice will discourage them. It will also discourage the creation of valid articles under these names. And we should make it easier for newcomers to get started not harder. If it's hard now, it doesn't mean that it's OK to make it harder for them. We should make the whole process easier. Just now I was wondering how to go about listing a cat for deletion. I've been on Wikipedia since 2003, and I didn't feel like hunting around for some procedure. Dori | Talk 21:09, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)

I think I need to some evidence of the harmful effect that you predict because at the moment I just don't see it happening. The articles that have had this template put upon them have generally gone through VfD and had a strong "move to wiktionary" vote. I think the value of the cross-wiki fertilization far outweighs the possible downside you have identified.

P.s. Wikipedia:Categories for deletion. Pcb21| Pete 21:50, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't think we ought to be encouraging newbies to create duplicates of dicdefs which already exist. If the community has decided that "foo" is not something we want to have an article on, we ought to record that community consensus in some way - and, moreover, one person doesn't get to overturn that community consensus by being bold. Noel (talk) 22:43, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Does the current revision make everybody happy? —siroχo 23:21, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)

Not really, not an article not a redirect, yet in the main namespace. Dori | Talk 02:24, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)

I like it, in the spirit of compromise. Dori, what is the problem with having a new page type - a soft redirect if you will? Pcb21| Pete 06:45, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I still feel the same way about this, but when I am the only one crying about something I usually drop the matter. Dori | Talk 12:58, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)

I think this template is very useful and should be encouraged. RickK 05:32, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)

This is terrible - it makes it very difficult to edit these pages - I fell foul of this once already. Mark Richards 19:41, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

How? Pcb21| Pete 21:23, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

A plain cross-project redirect to the Wiktionary is what's impossible to edit (without hand-crafting the appropriate URL). This template makes it far easier to do so. Noel (talk) 22:43, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I find this a sneaky way to get around the rule the Wikipedia is not a dictionary (without claiming that was its intent). But if you don't like that rule, try to change it, and propose merging Wiktionary with Wikipedia, rather than working around it like this and then claiming the result is a compromise. It's a clear breaking of the rule. Pages consisting of nothing but weblinks are also supposedly discouraged here. And I don't see why Wikipedia should particularly link to Wiktionary or vice verse. This smells of preferring something because it is in-house rather than because it is best. You would also put links to other dictionaries on the page if you really wanted to give most value. We often give external links from articles to pages that have better and fuller discussions on the topic than Wikipedia does, and quite rightly. So do Encarta and Britannica. Are other external links to other dictionaries forbidden on these pages? Why? Who has decreed this and by what authority? Also articles are not supposed to consist of "Mere collections of external links" or "Mere collections of internal links". Is a collection of one not a collection? This appears to me to effectively break the policy of Wikipedia not being a dictionary and break the policy of Wikipedia and Wiktionary being separate and break the policy of articles not being mere web links. And by what rule are people prevented from now creating thousands of such pages is this is allowed? Jallan 01:48, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Considering what the text currently is for a nonexistant page (click that to see, it links to wiktionary), I don't think this is much different, it simply confirms that indeed there is a definition of the term at wiktionary. This template is basically different boiler plate text for a currently empty entry. —siroχo 04:31, Oct 26, 2004 (UTC)

I don't look at these pages as primarily information (i.e. the Wikitionary link). If that's all they were, Jallan's points would be well taken. Rather, a main motivation for this template is to prevent the creation of (potentially duplicate) dicdef's. Noel (talk) 22:43, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Not so horrible, but not great either

There needs to be a way to exclude pages with this template on it from appearing on Special:Shortpages and from being counted as articles (all that is needed is a single internal link to be counted as an article; for example Flagrante delicto is counted as an article, which is absurd). These pages also need to be excluded from special:random page, otherwise that function will become useless when/if each Wiktionary entry has a corresponding page with the WI template on it here. At the same time these pages should show up in standard searches. --mav 20:43, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Revert

I reverted back to the version with self references, as it better models a page like this —siroχo 00:47, Oct 28, 2004 (UTC)

Reverted back. See wikipedia:avoid self references. The example you note is in part of the message system of the software and thus is changed automatically based on the site name. This template is placed on article pages. Use of Wikipedia makes the resulting article pages less useful to downstream users (who would want to remove such self-references). --mav 17:01, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Agree with mav. -- Netoholic @ 17:26, 2004 Oct 29 (UTC)

Deletion.

This template might provide a link to a wiktionary article that is certain to exist. But we should keep in mind that putting it on the page makes the link to the article blue, when there's in fact no article to read which hurts wikipedia. Also, empty pages provide a link to look up the term in Wiktionary, even if it's not certain the term is there. Wouldn't the right course of action be to simply create the entry at wiktionary, instead of using this template?

Since Wikipedia's goal is to make an encyclopedia, I don't see how this template would help. [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm|^(talk)]] 12:06, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)

This template exists to facilitate border encyclopedia/dictionary cases. Please give me a shout if you would like it explained in detail/again/slowly. Pcb21| Pete 00:40, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

A main motivation for this template is explicitly to prevent the creation of duplicate dicdef's; we don't want someone to create those articles. Noel (talk) 22:51, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Please, explain in detail, cause I think that if "There is no encyclopedia article for "Wi"." as the template states the article should be left as a red link which doesn't happen when the template is added to it. Maybe it needs a little rewording? [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm|^(talk)]] 09:50, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)

On sober reflection my previous seems a bit odd. Apologies.

The intent of the template is that it should be used when a title is border line encyclopedia/dictionary, and when the community consensus (cough) has determined that the title belongs on the dictionary side of the border. However people will go on creating links to this borderline article. If we don't have a template, someone will fill that red link with another dicdef, and the cycle begins again. Having a blue link, which as you suggest implicitly suggests we have an encyclopedia article (when in fact we have a pointer to a dictionary entry) is to my mind really no great loss at all compared to the gain of wasted effort battling over wikipedia/wiktionary. Pcb21| Pete 16:08, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Parameter version of template?

Hello. I still consider myself to be a Wikipedia newbie, and I've only used this template once to create a soft redirect but like the current version. Has anyone considered creating a version of this template that accepts a parameter--so something like {{wipar|parameter}}? This would function much like the {{Wiktionarypar}} template. The purpose of such a template would be to allow the editor to link to Wiktionary under something other than PAGENAME. Thanks. Lbbzman 19:22, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Can you give an example of where that would be useful? This template is usedused on page titles that would otherwise be no more than dicdefs. -- Netoholic @ 23:12, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Sure. I recently placed the tag on Purlins. The correct Wiktionary article is "purlin" (singular). I suppose I could have created a redirect on Wikipedia from Purlins to Purlin, and then placed the {{wi}} tag on the new page, but creating a redirect to a soft redirect didn't seem like the right answer. As it stands now, a user clicking on the link in the template will be taken to a search page for the plural form, which isn't the worst thing in the world. Just wondering if wipar makes sense or not. Lbbzman 01:04, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I think the best solution is to just add redirects on Wikipedia from plural to singular, as I've done. I then added the Wikitionary template to that singular page. -- Netoholic @ 05:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC)