Talk:While

Utter nonsense interpretation of The Times and The Guardian style guides

The article currently claims that "whilst" is no longer considered acceptable in formal English in the UK and cites style guides from the aforementioned newspapers as evidence. A style guide is not a valid reference for such issues. For instance, the style guides of these newspapers are written more to the purpose of consistency than grammar and so the disallowance of "whilst" is only meant to ensure their journalists do not use inconsistent wording in their articles.

In fact, the two words are completely interchangeable and it is irrelevant which of the two one chooses to use (at least in the United Kingdom). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zoso Jade (talk • contribs) 22:15, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree to a certain extent. Many publications spell through as thru and night as nite to save on space, but that doesn't make it the standard spelling. Whilst is not commonly used in the U.S. (but it is used), so that's why American style guides might discourage it. General style guides should be used more than newspaper style guides in my opinion. Kman543210 (talk) 22:45, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Just agreeing with the 'st' added to 'whil' can't be its genetive form argument. Teach German and the genetive is one of four cases that affect the declension of the noun/ its adjective. 'while/ whilst' on the other hand don't affect the noun/ adjective/ case, but are conjunctions... as opposed to betwixt, amidst etc. which is probably where the confusion began..... ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.211.249.46 (talk) 22:03, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

The Guardian style guide, and any other British Broadsheet newspaper, will naturally favour grammatical usage that is more international due to the more international nature of their readership. "Whilst" maybe considered pretentious in some regions of the Anglophonic world, but not in Britain, where it is in daily usage. Coder Keitaro (talk) 08:19, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the subtitle (link corrected, btw). The article takes a condescending tone toward those who would use whilst. Quite the opposite to the tone of the article, it's pretentious in the extreme to set yourself up as a grammar expert and then dictate how others should speak; especially considering its prevalence in the UK. Sheesh. Who invented English anyway? ;-) --Rfsmit (talk) 04:14, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Whereas I personally think the purpose of pointing out internationally preferred forms is to eschew those forms adopted by one country alone as the standard from predominating Wikipedia and thereby making its content more inaccessible and purporting to speak to a minority audience. If the UK is the only country to use "whilst," "while" should probably be preferred. We can't all cater to a dominating orthography using a Cockney dialect, for example, just because a lot of working class Londoners may want to make edits. Just an example. Shiggity (talk) 22:31, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Multiple Choice

The difference between "while" and "whilst" is:

• A. "While" is for English since 1650, "whilst" is before 1650.
• B. "While" is American, "whilst" is Canadian
• C. None of the above

66.32.118.139 23:31, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

None of the above! —^Jack_Lumber ^/tɔk/ 20:54, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe A is an acceptable answer, since at least one source (Michael Quinion's World Wide Words) claims that while is actually the older form, not whilst. World Wide Words: While versus whilst 204.17.26.4 (talk) 19:16, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

I vote A. The use of whilst is pretentious and archaic. If there really was a difference between the two words then each would have their own article. Instead, when you type whilst into the wiki search bar you are directed here because whilst is the archaic form of while. If there really was a difference between the words then there should be a separate article for that word. There isn't a separate article because its the same meaning, just one is modern and the other is archaic. // Mark Renier (talk) 14:15, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Proof by appeal to wikipedia, is that a documented logical falacy? Oh, it doesn't have a WP page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.236.89.96 (talk) 18:04, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

All of Wikipedia is user moderated, and based upon consensus, which up to this point has been that Whilst and While are synonymous enough to NOT warrant distinct articles. If you feel that they are distinct enough to have separate articles you are welcome to make that distinction. Your fellow wiki contributors will weigh in and consensus will develop. It is not a proof but a process of building consensus. A case of a "logical falacy" (sic) has to be brought against one of the elements of that process. Don't be silly, anonymous, be a contributor. // Mark Renier (talk) 18:34, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Usage

As far as I can tell, "whilst" is used by people who want to sound smarter than they really are.

It also seems to be quite common in usage on Wikipedia, but not elsewhere.

The following website has a little bit of information on the difference in the words: While versus whilst Peyna 17:37:47, 2005-08-15 (UTC)

I use whilst fairly commonly, and have never considered it affected, though I'm aware that it would be likely to be considered so in the USA. (I'm British.) I don't usually make a conscious decision about whether to use while or whilst, but rather use whichever one is in the sentence in my head! Loganberry (Talk) 23:48, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

As an American, whilst (like amongst and amidst) makes me cringe. I'm not sure whether it's (A) Archaic, (B) Cultural, or (C) None of the above. I see it as archaic at best, and at worst, just an inattentive bad habit (sorry, Loganberry). People who are taught to write, are pressed to avoid that which is unnecessary. Less is more. Adding "-st" to "while" achieves nothing, except to offer clues about the author.--213.46.139.101 11:41, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

None of this "I'm an American" crap, please. I'm an American and I use -st variants often, right in actual speech, and I know loads of people who do so. The fact that self-proclaimed writing experts recommend "less" so the simple minds of the average, barely literate idiot can grasp written information is no reason for anyone to feel bad or that they're in the wrong for using the word. Use of the word says nothing about the writer, but more about the person reacting so absurdly to it. Seems to me that people who have a problem with "whilst" are projecting onto others in a bout of anti-elitism elitism. I know plenty of people who would consider "I am" (rather than just "I'm" -- just an example, pick any contraction you please) to sound archaic as well because the average American doesn't say the entire phrase. Should we just start cringing whenever any vaguely formal words or phrases are used? I think not. Michael 09:05, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, Michael, if you need more reasons: "Whilst" is aesthetically ugly. How's that? It's a hard consonant breaking up what should be a small and smooth word.

And by the way, those "self-proclaimed writing experts" you mention? Those would be People who get paid to write, and People who get paid to teach others how to write. So, yes, I'll listen to them, rather than "Angry Michael of Wikipedia". --63.25.100.198 14:01, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

"whilst" gets 85 million Google hits and "while" gets 1300 million Google hits. I agree with Peyna that "whilst" tends to show up lately in writing where people think it sounds a bit more erudite, when in fact it is simply archaic (even though "while" has the earlier origin). Hu 04:50, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I feel this Google test is somewhat invalid. "while" is an incredibly common keyword in almost all modern programming languages, and there are tons of references/tutorials for these online. Additionally, "while" is used a lot more in media, like song and movie titles, which, it could be argued, maybe be due to the word "while" being simpler and shorter to pronounce, thus catchier in such titles. A Google test will rarely work well for such common words as conjunctions. Whilst I agree that "whilst" is pretty much deprecated and archaic, this Google test is pretty weak evidence. 24.125.232.123 00:31, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

What a load of tripe. Some people feel more comfortable with while, others feel more comfortable with whilst. Both are perfectly acceptable. Neither are incorrect, or elitest.

Whilst originated as the genitive form of while. Using it where the genitive form is appropriate is correct English, whichever side of the Atlantic (or indeed Pacific) you hail from. 213.123.175.41 10:42, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

The preceding paragraph can be nothing but nonsense. The word while is a preposition, and (as anybody who knows anything about inflected languages should know) only nouns and adjectives can have declensions (of which the genitive is one case). The OED says whilst was formed from "whiles" by imitation of "amongst"; and although "whiles" is indeed said to appear to have originated by a "genitive form" of "while" about 700 years ago when Middle English was young, there is no possible reason for the genitive case to have anything whatever to do with consideration of its use now. In English, prepositions governing a noun don't even require the genitive case (such as it exists) of that noun; but "while" is a preposition governing a clause, which has no declined case forms; so the statement "Using it where the genitive form is appropriate is correct English" is (I have to say) utter rubbish. There may be no way in which "whilst" is actually wrong in people's private writings, but the form is not desirable in published articles.

Similarly, although not necessarily wrong in the world at large, neither "while" nor "whilst" is justifiable for use in Wikipedia articles where the meaning is "although", simply because "although" is always available, is utterly unambiguous even without regard to any particular context, and therefore is more readily understandable to all readers --- including all those whose first language is not English. The latter may be using en.wiki to develop an article in their language, or because no wiki for their language exists at all yet. The very nature of a word like "although", of which the purpose is always to express some form of contrast between actuality and expectation, means that it tends to occur in sentences of which the import may be less obvious that that of simpler constructions. This makes absolute lucidity of sentences that present such contrasts even more important than in sentences that are simple statements of fact. Therefore I recommend that wikipedians be urged to stick to "although" everywhere when it is the required meaning, avoiding "while" as well as "whilst" in those cases. Iph (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 19:04, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Whilst I admire the dedication to this issue I must insist you all go outside and frolic amongst the greenery and wildlife to take your minds off this pathetic discussion. EchetusXe (talk) 16:07, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

My idiolect

'While' and 'whilst' can both denote the passage of time, but 'while' can also have the meaning 'although', or 'but', while 'whilst' cannot. (Semi-self-referential?) Better still would be to avoid both when you mean 'although' or 'but'. Too Old (talk) 14:01, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

"While and whilst" section

The above-mentioned section seems very tautological. The first para is basically repeated in the second one.

I also disagree strongly that whilst is rare. Number of google hits is a pretty poor measure of this. Whilst might be less common than while, but it is not "rare or archaic".

Suggest just deleting both of the first two sentences of the second paragraph. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JominyDave (talk • contribs) 20:08, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Use of "while" to mean "until"

It always struck me as something distinctively Leeds in origin (I lived in Bradford for ten years and only ever heard people from the city next door use it). As for citations, does the Sisters of Mercy song "Nine While Nine" count as evidence? 77.97.189.110 (talk) 11:07, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

I think I get what you mean, though I only have vague recollections of northern friends occasionally using it this way (wait here while X arrives, etc). Might be worth a mention. 193.63.174.10 (talk) 09:01, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

'Appen. Basic Broad Yorkshire by Arnold Kellet, ISBN 1-870071-82-4, indexes p. 142: “while until”--Rfsmit (talk) 04:19, 14 April 2010 (UTC) (Note that this guide covers multiple dialects in a broad area; hence "dialects" in the article.)--Rfsmit (talk) 04:53, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

The English/American conflict

This entire discussion/arguement is highly indicative of the linguistic tension between U.S.A and G.B. As ever cultural imperialism will win out eventually, us Brits had our chance! As Homer Simpson said '"Pffft, English. Who needs that? I'm never going to England."Norwikian (talk) 18:00, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

It seems Americans find whilst pretentious and British people just use it as everyday language interchangeably with while. 79.215.165.198 (talk) 09:39, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Pretentious? It's a perfectly cromulent word. They need to get over their reverse-snobbism. 193.63.174.10 (talk) 09:00, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

a different angle

Landed here whilst ;) reading up on this, not sure which one to use for transcribing someone else's slightly muffled recording and deciding to use the objectively "right" word. For some reason, with a British cultural and educational upbringing, "whilst" seems the right one ("whil{e/st} the transformation is taking place") - it seems to "fit" the sentence better, in the same way that other words with multiple end forms do (e.g. "a" vs "an"), suggesting there's some rather deep and multiply-reinforced but nonspecific imprint of it been made on my mind somehow.

This would kind of fit in with what I saw from one of my other sources - on the first google search results page for "while whilst", but unfortunately a forum thread and therefore but a hop and a skip away from OR... can't remember if they cited THEIR sources... anyway, this other linguistical person's view was that "while" could be used both in the coincidental and the contrasting sense (the thing that leads to the confusion in the example sentence about playing and working), while "whilst" makes the clause an exclusively coincidental one. IE by using it, we emphasise that one child is working at the same time as another plays, rather than the alternate sense that, in general, one works BUT the other plays. This may explain why I initially "felt" it to be the correct choice for that sentence, too.

Any of our well-reviewed sources back this up? Unfortunately I have landed on google, wikipedia and the like because it's a lot easier than the walk across campus to go and find a dictionary that may help ;) (it would however be a british one... I can only find american-standard ones online). 193.63.174.10 (talk) 08:58, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Replaced page after deletion

Someone deleted this page, which has been stable for over seven years. Such a deletion warrants a consensus via poll. The information covered here is not in Wiktionary. At the very least, the page should be migrated to a While vs. Whilst page if the consensus is that that information predominates the section. Shiggity (talk) 22:22, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

There is no encyclopedic knowledge here, it's all about the term, when the term 'should' and shouldn't be used, it's pure dictionary land. Encyclopedic knowledge starts where terminology stops. - BigBodBad (talk) 20:55, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Thee and Thou

Not all English dialects have replaced thee and thou with you. In Yorkshire and Lancashire, for example, one can often still hear 'thee' and 'tha' used as singular second person pronouns. I think the clause talking about them should be removed from the While vs. Whilst section. Bazzalisk (talk) 17:48, 23 August 2010 (UTC)