Talk:Jediism: Difference between revisions
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:I think that it is ''very'' likely that many or most people who put Jedi on a census were either mocking religion or mocking the census. It would be misleading for this article to take itself too seriously, but it needs some citations for why people chose to identify as Jedi. Was there a specific campaign asking people to put Jedi on the census? —[[User:Arctic.gnome|Arctic Gnome]] <small>([[User talk:Arctic.gnome|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Arctic.gnome|contribs]])</small> 00:28, 27 October 2010 (UTC) |
:I think that it is ''very'' likely that many or most people who put Jedi on a census were either mocking religion or mocking the census. It would be misleading for this article to take itself too seriously, but it needs some citations for why people chose to identify as Jedi. Was there a specific campaign asking people to put Jedi on the census? —[[User:Arctic.gnome|Arctic Gnome]] <small>([[User talk:Arctic.gnome|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Arctic.gnome|contribs]])</small> 00:28, 27 October 2010 (UTC) |
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It began in Australia, because they resented the census. They wanted to foul it up by putting Jedi in the religion box. It was never about "devout Jedis". There was no such move at the time. It began a bit later.[[Special:Contributions/75.21.159.227|75.21.159.227]] ([[User talk:75.21.159.227|talk]]) 16:47, 27 October 2010 (UTC) |
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== Shao-lin reference removed == |
== Shao-lin reference removed == |
Revision as of 16:47, 27 October 2010
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Jediism article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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![]() | Jediism was nominated as a good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (November 10, 2009). There are suggestions below for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated. |
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![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 24 January, 2010. The result of the discussion was Nominator withdrew. |
Stripping Article of References
Wow, isn't this article going backwards? I added all kinds of references (numbers of people claiming "Jedi" as their religion on census forms by country, basis of the idea as discussed by George Lucas, quotes from Star Wars about the Force) but they've all been removed. Soon there will be no references left at all, and the article will be pure OR and personal opinion!114.161.229.100 (talk) 11:53, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
I know. They are still in the history, I'm thinking about doing some kind of massive revert/merge.Ren ✉ 00:08, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
I notice that it's getting SPAM. Somebody starts a site with one or three members yesterday and puts a link. That won't do. Br.John.Henry.Phelan (talk) 02:30, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
The census issue is covered at Jedi census phenomenon and so is therefore off-topic for this article, which is covering the idea of it being followed as a genuine religion. There is no evidence to suggest that all these people were actually members of a real Jedi religion as covered at this article (indeed, the claim is quite absurd). Just because we have no good refs left, is not an argument for putting in more bad refs. You have to go and find good refs - or else it simply shouldn't be on Wikipedia. I already addressed my reasoning for removing the census numbers in the Talk page, so please address that before reverting. Mdwh (talk) 01:41, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
- There were many references to news articles about Daniel Jones and the Church of Jediism - these have since been removed. Kai Tatsu (talk) 13:50, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
We've had someone do some adding as well, John. I think those who believe in the UK church are trying to keep this page to themselves. >.> Setanaoko (talk) 07:26, 8 October 2010 (JST)
New external link
The link for churchofthejedi.org has been removed by more than one editor. The IP address adding it is from the same area that the Church is located in, which is Spring Hill, Florida. Aside from the possible COI, it looks like the site is being added contrary to WP:EL, which advises against the adding of sites to promote them. The domain churchofthejedi.org was just registered on Jan. 16, 2010 by a man in.....Spring Hill, FL. I have to laugh when the home page included 2 things.....a poll that has a spelling error in the question and a big pay pal button to accept donations. Smelling a lot like spam. Niteshift36 (talk) 04:05, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
What happened?!
What the heck happened to this page? I swear there used to be like, 30 references and a huuge discussion page? What idiot has removed all this, and nominated the page for deletion? Kai Tatsu (talk) 13:49, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
- I am the idiot who nominated the page, as there seemed to be lack of references. It needs massive clean up. Weaponbb7 (talk) 14:22, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
- There is only a lack of references as someone removed them all: check the history of the page Kai Tatsu (talk) 20:30, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for removing the deletion tag :) Kai Tatsu (talk) 17:34, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
- There is only a lack of references as someone removed them all: check the history of the page Kai Tatsu (talk) 20:30, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
"Official" Religion
Though people tend to claim that the religion is officially recognised I do not know where this is true. In many US states one need do nothing but register a name to become a "religion". In Canada this process is far more complex. In Ontario one must have an existing organisation for 20 years and then can petition the Ministry of Commercial and Consumer Relations, register a "Book of Common Prayer" and fill out some forms to become an Officially Recognised Religion. The inclusion on the census form only reflects frequency of response, not official recognition.
Universal Life Church will ordain anyone, anywhere for whatever reason. For a dollar you can be a Saint or an Angel even. They hardly count as an authority.
I will point out, though, that although Star Wars is a work of fiction, Lucas was advised by Theologeon Joseph Campbell and the original series includes many Shinto, Buddhist, Hermetic and even Gurdjeiffian concepts. The idea of the Force can be seen in the works of many Hermeticists under the names Life-Power, One-Force, LVX, Limitless Light, and others. Though there may be an historical connection for the ideas expressed in Jediism it is still an NRM/Cult without legal foundation as a religion. (I use the word Cult in its anthropological sense, not in the sensationalist media sense.)
It would also be interesting to know whether or not there is a single "authority" or multiple sects. Also any quotes Lucas himself may have on the subject would be valuable as to the legitimacy of using the term Jedi in the first place. Frater SG (talk) 03:53, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
- Registering a name isn't the "gold standard" in the US. Tax exempt status tends to be more important. Niteshift36 (talk) 04:42, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
- There are indeed multiple sects and absolutely no centralized authority that is universally recognized by everyone who claims to be a Jedi. Further, the term Jediism may or may not refer to a relgiously-oriented view of the Jedi philosophy and broader Star Wars mythos. Although effort is being made to come up with qualifications on the term Jedi to distinguish those who adhere to the Jedi Philosophy without a religious slant, from those who follow it with a religious slant, the terminology is still a bit muddied up. The biggest problem with this particular artilce is that it purports that all who claim Jediism claim it as a religion, when that simply is not the case. The unifying belief is in this thing called the Force... which is an impersonal force in nature, more akin to Gravity than a diety. Belief in gravity is not something generally accepted as constituting a religion, and so belief in something like a unified field theory is no better a qualification for a religion (in my opinion). Stryse (talk) 17:48, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
Lucas' trademarks doesn't cover religion topics. i would like to add that many countries do not recognize any religions, and as niteshift puts it, tax-exempt status (I don't know how it happens in the US) as a religious organization is the way to go. there are a few tax-exempt jedi organizations in and outside the US. One in Canada actually.Ren ✉ 05:17, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
All Rather Pointless
Considering that to the Jedi , using the 'Force' is the primary aspect of being a Jedi, this renders Jediism a thoroughly pointless exercise. Because the 'Force' does not exist. And so cannot be used. Chunner (talk) 16:46, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
- That is a statement of belief. While a valid belief, it is no more or less valid than the beliefs held by those who call themselves Jedi. Thus its only pointless to those who don't share that belief. One can not prove the existance of the Force anymore than they can prove the existance of a God. Yet you will be hard-pressed to find anyone who would agree that adhering to (not to mention the exploration of) their own beliefs (and by extension world-views) is a pointless excercise on their part. Stryse (talk) 17:53, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
Your point being? The Force does not exist.
It is a fictional concept dreamt up by & in the fevered imagination of George Lucas.
That is not a point of view. It is a FACT
One cannot prove or disprove the exsistence of God or Gods?
That is a point of view.
One cannot prove or disprove the exsistence of the Force?
Incorrect! False!! Wrong!!!
The Jedi use the Force to effect drastic, tangible, physical real time changes in themselves, their immediate environment or opponents.
Being aware of and being able to 'Use the Force' is the primary aspect, the be-all and end-all of being a Jedi.
A Jedi who cannot use 'The Force' is not a Jedi.
As there is no Force, There can be no Jedi.
But, as you say, if it makes them happy, they should go for it. Yours, as always, and with a smile,Chunner (talk) 16:46, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
Not quite a sound argument. First, being able to use the Force is hardly the be-all and end-all of being a Jedi. There are plenty of non-Jedi force-sensitives in the Star Wars universe. Even if we limit ourselves to just the original trilogy, we have the Sith. The be-all and end-all of being a Jedi is in their ethics and ideology. Force-sensitivity may be the prerequisite to begin your path, but it alone will not make you a Jedi.
Secondly your basis that there is no Force is that George Lucas invented a 'ficitious concept.' This is not entirely true either. George Lucas adapted a pre-existing concept to a work of fiction. This is different from inventing a concept outright. He didn't dream up something like Dark Energy. He took from a rich history of human spirituality in crafting the Jedi order. The concept behind 'the Force,' he gave a new name and a new interpretation too, but that's what people have been doing throughout time. Humanity has known 'the Force' under many names. Tao, Spirit, Ether, Chi, Akasha, Divinity, God/dess energy, etc. Whatever that 'something' ultimately is, and whether or not it really exists, has been a matter of contention for quite some time.
I suppose we might say, in lack of any means to verify the existance or not, that any spiritual pursuit is "all rather pointless" but too many people have found value in it for that to be an objectively true statement. Stryse (talk) 02:49, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
Trying to veiw spirituality or religious matters objectivley is a contradiction in point.
Religion is a subjective subject! As a longstanding fan of Monty Python I have to say I've come here for the argument!
It seems that you are attempting to gather all known spiritual & religious movements and ideas and palm them off as aspects of 'The Force'.
This is a foolhardy attempt to justify the possible exsistence of a 'made for TV' pseudo-religion.
Humanity has known 'The Force' under many names?...I'm afraid this is getting pretty creepy....Are you serious?
If a member of the general public wishes to shop in Tesco's wearing a Hoodie and calling himself a Jedi, It's OK with me.
But it don't make him one.
Is All I'm Sayin!
TTFN Chunner (talk) 19:50, 3 August 2010 (UTC
AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THE FORCE LIGHTNING!!!! THE FORCE LIGHTNING!!!!!!
GASP!!! *CHOKE* COUGH!!!! THE DEADLY FORCE GRIP!!! THE DEADLY FORCE GRIIIPPP!!!!
AAAARRRGGGHHHH! THE FORCE LIGHTNING!!!!! THE FORCE LIGHTNING!!!!!!!!!
GASP!!! *CHOKE* COUGHhhhhhhhh................
TTFN Chunner (talk) 19:58, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
Other popular culture
What is the relevance of this section, it doesn't even refer to Jediism but instead refers to the Matrix Memnoich (talk) 18:27, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
- Been a while since I looked at this article. You're right, it has nothing to do with the topic. Removed. Niteshift36 (talk) 18:33, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
You have got to be kidding
Some people decide to have some good-natured fun with a govenment census and merit an article as if it was all done in earnest? Ekwos (talk) 03:09, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
The ones who were *just* having fun with the census aren't typically the ones involved in Jediism (or Jedi Realism). Which of course raises the point that just because census forms shows X number of people are Jedi, we can't really consider that number as accurate since its fairly well accepted that more than a few people filled out Jedi as part of the joke. Nevertheless, there are those who filled in that response with complete seriousness on their part. Any religion can look foolish in its infancy, but if they're serious about it, they'll eventually grow up into something only fools would say is foolish. :P
Of course this article doesn't do a very good job of exploring the wide diversity that is the Jedi movement. 24.205.194.2 (talk) 23:41, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
Parody religion
I always beleived that Jediism is a parody religion. Please clarify why this is not put down as a parody religion, whereas other, apparently similarly foolish religions, such as FSMism are not, as it seems to be that Wikipedia is guility of non- impartiality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.152.71.65 (talk) 13:54, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
- It's not put down as a parody religion because Jediism is a real religion with thousands of true believers, rather than a collection of people who have joined for a joke. The Church of Jediism alone has over 3,000 true members who all actually believe in the Force. And that's just one of the Jedi communities out there. Kai Tatsu (talk) 12:34, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
No, this is not the point at all. You must supply citations or even simple links to websites pertaining to Jedi believers. For some, it is not a parody, though it is a misguided and silly pursuit. To include real-world Jedi influence, however, there must be real-world citations. What I find pitiful is that it takes a film to move people into the realm of enlightenment. Therefore, if you wish to flesh out this article properly, there should also be cited objections to the use of a bunch of film characters as the foundation of a religion.75.21.144.68 (talk) 16:57, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
- I think that it is very likely that many or most people who put Jedi on a census were either mocking religion or mocking the census. It would be misleading for this article to take itself too seriously, but it needs some citations for why people chose to identify as Jedi. Was there a specific campaign asking people to put Jedi on the census? —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 00:28, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
It began in Australia, because they resented the census. They wanted to foul it up by putting Jedi in the religion box. It was never about "devout Jedis". There was no such move at the time. It began a bit later.75.21.159.227 (talk) 16:47, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Shao-lin reference removed
The reference to Shao-lin as a sort of inspiration and as a component of Jediism has been removed. You have no right to say anything other than you have taken INSPIRATION only, from Shao-lin.
If you are not Buddhist, do not live the Holy Vows, especially celibacy and rejection of intoxicants, among all others, you cannot claim Jediism as a form of Buddhism. Shao-lin was the epitomy of Buddhist spirituality in China before the Communist government repressed it into non-existence.
While I commend those who look toward Shao-lin for ideals, you should not disgrace the memory of Shao-lin in this way. Do you have any conception of how many DIED trying to save the Temple? Do you know how many died subsequently, fleeing for their lives?75.21.112.60 (talk) 14:14, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
"Jediism is not the same as that which is portrayed within the Star Wars Saga by George Lucas and Lucasfilm LTD. George Lucas' Jedi™ are fictional characters that exist within a literary and cinematic universe. The Jedi™ discussed within this website refer to factual people within this world that live or lived their lives according to Jediism, of which we recognize and work together as a community to both cultivate and celebrate. Jedi™ Apprentices, Knights, Commanders, Scholars, Masters, Scribes and High Councilors embrace Jediism as a real living, breathing religion, and sincerely strive to seek out and emulate real life examples of Jediism in the long rich history of mankind. Jediism bases less of its focus on myth and fiction, and more upon those real life examples of Jediism.
The history of the path of Jediism traverses thought which is well over 5,000 years old. It shares many themes embraced in Hinduism, Confucianism, Buddhism, Gnosticism, Stoicism, Catholicism, Taoism, Shinto, Modern Mysticism, the Way of the Shaolin Monks, the Knight's Code of Chivalry and the Samurai Warriors. We recognize that many times the answers to mankind's problems comes from within the purified hearts of genuine seekers of truth. Theology, philosophy and religious doctrine can facilitate this process, but we believe that it would be a futile exercise for any belief system to claim to hold all the answers to all the serious questions posed to seekers of truth in the 21st century. Jediism may help facilitate this process, yet we also acknowledge that it is up to the true believer who applies the universal truths inherent within Jediism to find the answers they seek." [Emphasis mine.]
Retrieved 25/OCTOBER/2010 at: http://www.jediism.org/
I bring this to the attention of the talk page here--this has a few silly statements, but I am offended by the reference to the FICTIONAL "Way" of the Shao-lin monks. There is no "way" except the Middle Way of Buddhism. The Shao-lin have no other "way".
I will keep vigilant to see that this expression and reference to Shao-lin be used IN QUOTES, and that no other reference to a "Shao-lin Way" be referenced here. I feel very strongly about people who express beliefs that are unknown to them.
Anyone who practices Buddhism knows what the Shao-lin Order stood for and how the monastery operated--that is all. There is no more than that.75.21.112.60 (talk) 15:26, 25 October 2010 (UTC)