Talk:Koch network

Fork

Clear POV fork which actually is full of copyvios from Mayer et al. Collect (talk) 15:16, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Fork of... what? Much of the content is rejected for inclusion at Koch Family Foundations, and there is (AFAIK) no existing page which summarises the family's political activities. The text is largely copied from existing pages or old versions of Koch Family Foundations, so any copyvios (such as?) have been transferred thusly. Rd232 ^talk 15:25, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

I am curious if there are any analogous pages? People like George Soros and Peter Lewis on the left have comparable engagement in US politics. Richard Mellon Scaife has been compared to Koch. The only comparable page I can find is George Soros conspiracy theories. Thoughts? MBMadmirer (talk) 15:41, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't know, are there analogous cases? You cite individuals, whose activities are obviously handled in their own bios (eg George_Soros#Political_donations_and_activism), though they may be spun off WP:SUMMARY-style in the usual way if necessary. By contrast, the way in which the activities of the different members of the Koch family overlap, as individuals and via their company and via their foundations, makes a single page to bring these together (as some sources do) a different proposition than discussion of each of those separately in their own entries. Rd232 ^talk 16:20, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't know about that. For example Soros Fund Management (the company) gave money to 527s, their PAC gave money to candidates, the various foundations associated with him give money to things. Because these are two brothers, it is a whole different category? That seems like a stretch. If anything the closest analogy is the George Soros conspiracy theories where crazy people over-project for political reasons onto people. MBMadmirer (talk) 18:32, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't really know what you're getting at, but I have no objection in principle to Political activities of George Soros, if that helps any. Rd232 ^talk 19:31, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

(ec) Clear copyvio of Mayer. Material already in Koch Industries, David Koch, Charles Koch, Fred Koch, Koch family, Americans for Prosperity, Koch Family Foundations, Politics of global warming (United States), Tea Party movement, and Richard Fink. Seems more than enough places on WP for the opinions of Mayer, no? 10 articles all with her opinion that the Kochs are evil incarnate. Collect (talk) 15:46, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Rename to "Mayer's view of the Koch family"? I don't see it as copyvios, but just WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE violations. (And, if deleted, the material added here should not be returned to the articles it was copied from without due consideration of WP:BLP, WP:NPOV, and relevance.) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 15:50, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Obviously the article needs expansion - WP:IMPERFECT; but it's not like it's based on a single source. Rd232 ^talk 16:20, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

The article needs contraction, removing "information" and sources which clearly violate WP:BLP. I removed 2 of the references to Mayer's interview as being clearly her opinion, but Rich's article is an Op-Ed, which is not reliable for questions of fact, only (at best) of notability. I haven't gone through the rest of the references for credibility. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:42, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, those same issues are strewn across various related articles; that's inevitable when the subject of the article touches on so many things! Bringing them all together in one place allows all this material to be considered in the appropriate wider perspective, and improved, and the resulting improvements later carried over to related articles. It would be easier not to bother, and just leave everything to simmer quietly, but this will ultimately produce higher quality. The different context, for instance, can encourage a more scholarly and less personalistic approach, focussing on facts and their significance. Mayer may have brought this to public attention, but there are certainly other sources. It needs a lot of work, though. Rd232 ^talk 17:35, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

10 articles on Soros? I doubt it. The same stuff is being peddled in 10 articles here - and it is all opinion in any case. Collect (talk) 19:33, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

"it is all opinion in any case" - I'm going to nominate Charles Koch co-founding the Cato Institute (sourced to Cato) as my black swan. Rd232 ^talk 20:42, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, we should have a third party source.... — Arthur Rubin (talk) 21:18, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

For that? Not really. Rd232 ^talk 21:52, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

<--(OD)Most of this stuff is word for word what is in other Koch related articles. The only things that arent in the other articles are things that were rejected for either POV reasons or because they are mere opinions being given undue weight. This article is a clear POV fork, in my opinion. Bonewah (talk) 23:13, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

I've asked before, and was given no answer: a fork of what?. I don't fear an AFD, do it if you must. Rd232 ^talk 23:26, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

A fork of other Koch articles> You hit the nail on the head above when you said that most of this material was rejected from other Koch articles, if the material was rejected for NPOV reasons, then creating an article and trying to include them here makes this a POV fork. Bonewah (talk) 00:52, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

"A fork of other Koch articles" - that's weak. Anyway the material was being challenged more for relevance than NPOV (though there are NPOV issues with parts of the material too - but certainly not the topic) at Koch Family Foundations, not entirely incorrectly, hence it was moved here. Rd232 ^talk 02:09, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

The only parts of this article that look substantially different than the other Koch articles are the Jane Mayer stuff and the Greenpeace stuff, and even that isnt that much different. None of the other Koch articles are so long as to require a breakout, and creating an article just for the purpose of including a certain POV is a POV fork. Look, if editors object to the endless inclusion of Jane Mayer's opinion in other Koch articles, why would it be any different in this article? Bonewah (talk) 04:06, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

This should clearly be deleted. Not only is it offensive to label the entire Koch family as having the same political views when they don't all of this material is retreaded elsewhere. Let's call this what it is: a politically motivated fork. If you look, here http://planetsave.com/2011/01/29/greenpeace-crashes-koch-brothers-secret-party, and here http://dailycaller.com/2011/01/29/liberals-plan-to-uncloak-the-koch-brothers/ and here http://67.59.172.92/article/Local_News/Local_News/Conservative_Conference_Slated_as_Opposition_Groups_Plan_Protest/74310. This page was clearly created to coincide with the liberal protest. This is not an appropriate use of Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deletefeader (talk • contribs)

I don't think it labels the Koch family as having the same views: yes, the title is about the "koch family", but "activities" could well include liberal and conservative members of it doing opposite things, and the article itself makes it pretty clear which individuals are doing what. I'm not opposed to suggestions on renaming or improvement, but deletion seems to be WP:IDONTLIKEIT territory. Also, I'm not American, and not aware of any protests. Interesting though - thanks. Rd232 ^talk 07:49, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

You don't find it at all odd that a POV fork goes on just a few days before a number of liberal and left-leaning groups plan to protest a Koch conference. Please. This should be marked for deletion. Not only is the Mayer article inappropriate, and has been debated ad nauseum over on the other pages, but there is no new material in this story other than a few sections which could be easily added to those other pages. Oh, and I'm not American either, but I do have Google. (Deletefeader (talk) 10:19, 30 January 2011 (UTC))

I guess it's not entirely coincidental, since that upsurge of interest presumably led to recent edits to Koch Family Foundations, which is how I came back to the topic, with the article popping up on my watchlist. As I already said, I'm British, and not aware of the protests. Rd232 ^talk 14:41, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

The only honest thing about this (in the sources—I'm not claiming that the editors here are dishonest) is that the radical left finally admits Common Cause is liberal. They (CC) used to claim to be non-partisan. On the other hand, this AfD can't complete before the conference. On yet another hand, this protest is relevant to this (and only this) article, and, if we can find a reliable source for it, it should be here. I'm looking forward to the arrest of the protestors and seizure of the Greenpeace blimp.

I think there's enough real sources (not including opinion and Op-Ed columns, even in nominally reliable sources) for a general discussion of the Kochs' political activity, although much of the material was removed from other articles relating to the Kochs for WP:NPOV and WP:OR reasons, rather than for irrelevance. If it was for irrelevance, it should be moved to a relevant article, such as this one.. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:08, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

<--Can you give me an example of something that is irrelevant elsewhere, but relevant here? Thanks! Bonewah (talk) 16:26, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Some of the "Significance" section combines Koch Family Foundations and other organizations the Kochs have funded, and possibly have current involvement. (It wasn't easy to find, I agree.) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 17:12, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

If thats the only thing you can find, i would say its a fairly weak reed on which to stand. Further, although i dont have access to the sources listed in that section, the title of the main article "Degenerate Democracy: The Neoliberal and Corporate Capture of America's Agenda" does not strike me as a particularly neutral and reliable source. This gets to the heart of the matter, if it turns out this material is Neutral, reliably sourced and not OR, then there is no reason why it couldnt be included in the Koch family foundation article or the various Koch articles or both. If it has a problem with any of Neutrality, RS or OR, then making a new article to house them does not solve any of those problems. Bonewah (talk) 17:57, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, Public Land & Resources Law Review - it just doesn't sound like an WP:RS, does it... Oh but it's got a provocative title and you don't like what it's saying, so I guess it doesn't count. Rd232 ^talk 18:58, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Can you assume some good faith please? I already said I havent read it, and that if it turns out to be OK then i would have no problem seeing it included, what more do you want? If you have access to a digital copy, let me know and we can arrange a way so i can look at it and form a more informed opinion. Bonewah (talk) 22:23, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

If you enable your email I can email you the article. Rd232 ^talk 17:06, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Time for a deletion debate

Friends,

This page already has an obvious [[1]] violation.

It appears that this page was only created to coincide with well-publicized ads for a protest of the Koch brothers' political activities. On other Koch pages, Charles G. Koch and David H. Koch, we have already had these same debates about what should be included. The Koch family is a very large one. Do you mean instead the Koch brothers? Well, there are four of them and they all have differing views. And what, if anything, does their deceased father's alleged views have to do with anything?

It looks like we just have one edit-warring administrator on this page. What say you? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deletefeader (talk • contribs) 10:29, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I endorse this line of thinking. The guy who created the page admits that there is no precedent for the page. Given the WP:NPOV issue, the timing, the lack of precedent, and the fact that all of this is duplicative, I think it is fair to say that this should be deleted. MBMadmirer (talk) 15:06, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I, too, endorse this line of thinking. The sources down below are similarly inappropriate. Wikipedia has already vetted those pages on the individual brothers' pages. We've got a POV fork here, gents. It seems that some editors and administrators would rather come here than talk it out on individual Koch brothers' pages. For that reason alone, this should be deleted.(PokingTocqueville (talk) 20:58, 31 January 2011 (UTC))

NB User:Deletefeader and User:PokingTocqueville have been blocked as sockpuppets of User:Heinleinscat. Rd232 ^talk 20:37, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Renaming? + Sources

A possible solution could be to rename this article Political activities of the Koch Brothers or Political activities of the Koch Brothers (David & Charles) as they seem to be the real issue here. There are scores of sources that discuss the political advocacy and financial largess that has been donated by David H. Koch and Charles G. Koch known colloquially as the "Koch Brothers" (although yes they have 2 other brothers Bill & Frederick who are not involved in large scale political advocacy). There of course should be an article on the political work of the two "Koch brothers". As for sources, below are just a few that discuss the "Koch Brothers" as a notable and influential political entity ...
- The Brothers Koch: Rich, Political And Playing To Win audio story by NPR
- The Billionaire Koch brothers war against Obama cover story by The New Yorker
- How Important Are The Koch Brothers? by The New Republic
- Koch Brothers Have Given More Than $100 Million to Right-Wing Causes video by Democracy Now!
- The Koch brothers invade California by Salon magazine
- Billionaire Koch brothers back suspension of California climate law by The LA Times
- The Koch Brothers and the Tea Parties by The Washington Independent
- Schwarzenegger vs. Big Oil and The Billionaire Koch Brothers by Forbes
- The billionaire Koch brothers: Tea Party puppetmasters? by The Week
- Koch brothers to host rightwing politicians and business leaders at California resort by The Guardian
- Koch Industries (Brothers) and Republicans plan ahead by The New York Times
 Redthoreau -- (talk) 05:13, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, not appropriate. Most of the sources you listed are clear violations of BLP. Democracy Now? LA Times Blog? Really? You are going to use them as a source? Fight it out on the individual brothers' pages. David and Charles Koch do not agree on everything politically and it's inappropriate to put them together. Wikipedians have already vetted most of those sources. This page should be deleted.(PokingTocqueville (talk) 20:56, 31 January 2011 (UTC))

Keep or Merge

If the topic is merged, the information should be placed on ALL pages dealing with the Kochs or Koch Industries, otherwise the article should be kept.

If we accept the opinion that mainstream sources like The New Yorker, NPR, The NY Times, The LA Times are not appropriate, then how many Wikipedia pages would have to be completely revised or deleted altogether. Is Fox News a valid source, after being shown again again to be wildly inaccurate or just plain dishonest, even in its programming presented as news?

Nothing I have read in the talk on this article has presented evidence that the article is forked, at least not to a greater degree than hundreds of other Wikipedia articles.

Finally, without naming specific user names, it seems like there is a group of contributors who check articles having anything to do with the Kochs every day. These users always delete information about political donations to right-wing advocacy groups or, if the deletion is undone enough times, question the legitimacy of the sources used to document these donations. What is the motivation for Wikipedia activity on these pages? If you want a similar page on Soros or Peter Lewis, then create one. But the absence of comparable articles on liberal politically-motivated financial contributors is no reason to delete this one. --Dan.sampey (talk) 23:28, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps these unamed editors are motivated by exactly what they claim, that the sourcing isnt legitimate, or the emphasis undue? Did you ever stop to consider that actually mean what they say on the article's talk page? Bonewah (talk) 22:45, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

The source argument is a non-issue - as stated above, that's an argument you can't win. And emphasizing 30 years of political influence by the Kochs is undue? or unwanted? Many would say that what is undue is the influence, not the exposure. You can't pick and choose which facts you like and which you don't - let's put them all on the table. You can't describe a source as illegitimate just because you don't agree with it. Why so afraid of a little light? It's not necessary to name specific contributors - they know who they are. How many will be traced to the Koch payroll? As for me, it's my last comment - here it's midnight and I work for a living. --Dan.sampey (talk) 23:28, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

On the contrary, the source argument is an argument you can't win. An NPR interview of a — "journalist" — is not a reliable source, except for that journalist's opinions. And we still don't have a reliable source about the picketing of their latest political event, except for fringe reporters in fringe publications without fact-checking. Your latest article-space edit in Koch family used Dayen @ alternet for sourcing two "facts" which are not plausible, nor reported in mainstream media; and one irrelevant fact (which should only be in Koch Industries, if anywhere) from Mayer. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 23:36, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Fringe = pejorative label created in the 1970's representing a viewpoint conservatives don't like. The phrase today is "alternative." And isn't it funny how sources are suddenly not "reliable" when the facts they present - facts like on camera statements from the parties involved (like David Koch) - are embarrassing to the right? The Kochs have been exposed. All the Wikipedia deletions and circular arguments in the world can't stop the story of their long term covert manipulation of government officials, including Supreme Court justices, from becoming more and more widespread. Now it is "fringe" publications; tomorrow even the corporate mainstream media won't be able to cover up the facts. Wikipedia policy is for contributors not to second guess others' good faith. But at some point, with bands of contributors constantly hovering around certain topics and articles, the motivation for such collaboration really must be questioned. Is the ideology so important, or is there something more deceitful going on...? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dan.sampey (talk • contribs) 09:38, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

What's going on is that you're finding blogs to support your point of view, and we need organizations with a reputation for fact-checking. I admit to having some of the same political leanings as the Kochs, but almost all of my edits are removing information sourced to unreliable sources. As for on-camera "interviews", have you seen Jay Leno recently? He frequently conducts "interviews" by taking segments from an existing interview (with, say, Obama), and intercutting his questions. Is there any reason to believe Koch's interview was not so constructed? — Arthur Rubin (talk) 10:02, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Grasping at straws - the video interview with David Koch which is cited (if it hasn't been deleted again) in footnote 7 of the article Koch family, a video in which he admits affiliation with Americans for Prosperity is one continuous shot, no edits. I suppose the next excuse will be that digital video can be doctored. And by the way, who's the "we" in "we need organizations ..."? Are you presuming to speak for the entire Wikipedia community? Or is it "we" as in the few with the "same political leanings as the Kochs," if this rather benign description is to be taken at face value?

"What's going on" is that for whatever reason small but dedicated groups of Wikiusers are standing watch over certain types of articles to make sure nothing potentially embarrassing gets in. The only question is why. And it seems that for collectives of articles on figures or organizations that are related in some way (for example the Kochs and their organizations), there are different groups of these security guards of the status quo. Sorry, but I don't see claims about inappropriate sources or deletions made when neutral or favorable information is added to these articles. Whose to say that these "coincidences" about Wiki editorship won't be exposed, even if, for now, only on "fringe" media ...? --Dan.sampey (talk) 00:08, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Dan - The requirement for Reliable Sources isn't optional on Wikipedia and sources like that video certainly don't qualify. I wouldn't try to make an assertion about someone else's motives, but certainly many editors enforce that rule when it suits their political biases. The good news is that Wikipedia still works: That political competition improves the quality of the article for the reader by eliminating poorly sourced information. The good news for you is that there is now plenty of coverage of the Koch's in Reliable Sources, so you can probably find a good cite for much of that info. And if you see favorable information that is based on non-RS's, you should remove it! guanxi (talk) 18:37, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Well with the AFD concluded, I'm still fine with a merge (probably along with Koch Family Foundations) to Koch family, with the latter article then providing a wider context which might make people feel better about talking about Charles/David/Fred's political activities. However it probably should be discussed first rather than boldly done, given the recent AFD. Rd232 ^talk 20:41, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Im also fine with a merge, id rather have all the information in one place than spread out over half a dozen pages.Bonewah (talk) 01:09, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

I've removed unsourced favorable information about the Kochs, even though WP:BLP suggests that only controversial information need be removed immediately. You (Dan) still have not added credible sources. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 06:38, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

posted to wrong thread?guanxi (talk) 18:25, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Merge is fine. Let's just be sure not to lose info and that it's easily found from related pages (e.g., David Koch). Unfortunately, complex reality doesn't always map well to Wikipedia. guanxi (talk) 18:25, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Add sources mostly from Jan.2011 ... ?

• "The Kochs fight back" by Kenneth P. Vogel February 2, 2011
• Protesters Take On Conservative Retreat
• Hundreds march outside Koch brothers' retreat: The billionaire conservatives hold a gathering of elected officials, political donors and strategists. Outside, liberals hold signs condemning 'corporate greed.' 25 are arrested for trespassing.
• Protesters decry conservative desert retreat

99.181.156.210 (talk) 19:35, 11 February 2011 (UTC)