Talk:Tamil Kshatriya

Muthuraja as Kshatriya

I don't understand the use of the word "high ranking" in context of caste, are castes really ranked. It's merely to make the user feel good. And it doesn't comply with Wikipedia standards. Some cleanup necessary. --115.184.86.117 (talk) 09:21, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Muthurajah - Stop Vandalism

Some people here are trying to make believe that Muthutrajah are kshatriyas which is not at all the case: [1], page 121: "The Muthuraja, who are mainly agricultural workers...", "The Vagri and the Muthuraja (...) both officially classed as MBC". Please stop your vandalism. Rajkris (talk) 22:54, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Muthurajah - counter view

Please note , as mentioned earlier Kshariya Jats & Rajputs are also agricultural workers. Agriculture has been the primary occupation of Kshatriyas. It will be a misconception & far fetched to believe all Kshatriyas are Zaminadars, actually many of them are agriculural labourers.

Please have a very careful look on definition of Kshatriya & Rajput given by Encylopaedia Britannica (one of the most reliable English source in the world): [2] & [3]. Agriculture (that is tilling land) is the primary occupation of Shudras and NOT Kshatriyas!... Note also that (nowadays) most of Jats are not kshatriyas and all Rajputs are not kshatriyas.Rajkris (talk) 01:00, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Kongu & Chozhia Vellalar

These casts are traditionnally peasant casts who till the lands with their hands. This way of life has nothing to do Aristocraty.They are BC castes [4]. Rajkris (talk) 15:06, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

::In your refs it is not told that Sozia or Kongu are Kshatriya or Aristocratic castes, so you are writing things with fake refs.Rajkris (talk) 15:56, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Another ref: [5] page 86 "The Chozhia Vellalas (...) are believed to constitute the truly indigenous peasantry of the Chola country"Rajkris (talk) 23:15, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

I got a chance to take a look at the references, and they don't seem to have anything to do with this page at all. It's possible that Konguboy included the wrong page number, but I don't see reference to Kshatriya, or, for that matter, to the Oddiar whom the added info refers to. As such, I concur that the information should not be included. However, please note that this does not justify the edit warring conducted by either side to include or exclude the information. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:35, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

traditionally kongu vellalar were forward caste(huge caste with 214 clans )

From a Forward Caste, the Kongu Vellala Gounders and 14 sub-castes became Backward Caste in 1975 following a representation to the Government.[6],we made huge rally in coimbatore in 1970's to demand government to make as educationally backward caste Kongu Vellala Gounders and Sozhia Vellala who had all along been included in the list of 'Forward Classes' were included in the list of "backward classes" [7] Since most of the rural areas didn't have any schools and the missionary schools were slowly becoming the order of the day, the non-converting caste like Gounder were largely let off from modern education from the start of the 20th century. The Gounders were educationally lagging behind other communities who benifited enormously from missionaries who were running their own community banks and schools. It took another couple of decades for the revival of the Gounders in the educational sector after the community was accorded as an educationally backward class. population statics in 1960's Among the inhabitants of this region(Kongu Nadu the Population of Gaunder group Numbered around 80,00,000 (eighty lakhs ) around 1960 and the rest are about 45,00,000.(Kongu Nadu).[8] while in forward caste our caste name was kongu vellala gounder and droped gounder in caste name become kongu vellala as backward caste, recently only kongu vellala gounders in kerala where demoted to backward class from forward caste Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 20:22, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

"The Vēļāļar of the Tamil country (the descendants of the Vēļir) have retained the honorific till this day in their names (c.f kaņţar, kavuņţan and 'gouņder' (the last two from Ka.gauda<ganda)" in

Mahadevan, Iravatham (1970). "Dravidian Parallels in Proto-Indian Script". Journal of Tamil Studies (International Association of Tamil Research) 2 (1): 157–276. [9] i can give u more and from peer reviewed journals , inscription , archelogy note etc.. Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 20:33, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

To Kongu Kaviyarasu Gounder why in this doc [10] it is mentionned in page 3 of pdf: "In the social scale the Kongu Vellala Gounders are placed first among the non Brahmins, eventhough in the ritual hierarchy they are ranked below the Naidus and Vellalas of other regions" ? Rajkris (talk) 21:16, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

I have to concur with Rajkris again. You're right, Kong Kaviyarasu Gounder, that the first source says that the Vellala Gounders and the Sozhia Vellala are forward castes who were listed in the backwards caste. What I don't understand is what that has to do with this article. This article is about the Tamil Kshatriya group. As a side note, your second source does not meet our guidelines for reliable sources, so it's irrelevant. Kongu, is it possible that you're just trying to add the information to the wrong article? If what you want to add is about a different group (i.e., not the Tamil Kshatriya), then you need to add it somewhere else. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:50, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

to Qwyrxian , i am not going to add any content in Tamil Kshatriya article , i am just replying to his(Rajkris) statements in the talk page under his(Rajkris) topic of kongu vellalar . just answering to his question. whether i can reply to his questions , which had posted above by Rajkris Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 14:02, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

New thread

Even the NCERT text book refers to Muthuraja as rulers of Kaveri Delta before the Cholas. Few Sub castes of Muthuraja are Forward Caste & few others sub castes are listed as OBC, however both Forward Caste & Backward Muthuraja are both Kshatriyas. In today's context even the Landowning castes in Tamil Nadu are listed as backward due to political reasons, this includes most Mudaliars & Pillais. Rajkris has not bothered to look at NCERT reference attached in one of my edits.

Muthuraja are Kshatriyas,Even Kshatriya Lodh Rajputs in North are designated as OBC(Shivraj Singh Chauhan the MP chief ministers is an OBC Rajput).Most of the Vellars are also designated as OBC except for a very small group of Vellalars. OBC is not a Varna Categorisation. Lord Krishna belonged to OBC Yadav community.Jats are OBC Kshatriyas in some states,in other states they are fighting for OBC status. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rajananand456 (talk • contribs) 13:35, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Look, NCERT is a book made by Indian gov, it is not a scholar written book. I have provided proper refs below telling that this caste is a peasant origin caste, involved land tilling activities and are ranked in the Most Backward Castes (MBC) by the gov so as to help them to rise in the society because they don't have any children education tradition contrary to proper high castes who are ranke by the gov as Forward Castes (FC). Concerning Vellalars, scholars consider that only the high ranking subcastes (that is less than 50% of nowasdays Vellalars) are the scions of the ancient Tamil rulers whereas the others have peasant background origins. That is what I mentionned. It is same case for Rajput. Nowadays many people call themselves Rajput but most of them have nothing to do with the ancient northwest indian rulers. Concerning nowadays Yadvav, they have nothing to do with the historical Yadu Kshatriyas. Same for Jats, etc. These are the positions of scholars. Rajkris (talk) 15:08, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I don't understand any of this. That's mainly because you're both just making statements without any support. We cannot use this page to argue about the issues in the article--all it can be used is to discuss sources. Please provide exact sources for what you say. However, Rajkris, government books are considered reliable sources per Wikipedia; if sources disagree, then we will provide what both sources say, and explicitly state that there is disagreement. So, both of you, give me your sources and I will help mediate this dispute. Qwyrxian (talk) 16:29, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I do have a more specific question: what is your reliable source that "Muthuraja are Kshatriyas"? Without that information, there's no way to add the paragraph. Qwyrxian (talk) 16:47, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

The source mentionned by this user is this one [11], in this source, the following info is mentionned "A minor chiefly family known as the Muttaraiyar held power in the Kaveri delta" (page 22 or 7 of the pdf)... In any case this doc tells that the actual caste that call themselves Muthuraja comes from this family... The actual Mutharaja is a peasant caste (see above my ref). Here are some others [12] and this [13] ("The dominant caste being the muturajah who were serving originally the Zamindars"). You should know that there is a trend among peasant/labor castes all over India to take the name of some ancient aristocratic clans and/or invent fake noble past (this is the case of vanniyar, nadar, yadav and many many others).Rajkris (talk) 17:19, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't know if it still matters, but 1) That source still says nothing about the Tamil Kshatriya, and 2) it's not a reliable source anyway, because it appears to be a high school textbook. High school textbooks are never accepted as reliable sources, because they are well-known, in all countries, to be out-of-date, propagandistic, and inaccurate. Even college textbooks are questionable, with only the best quality ones being accepted as RS (and then mostly in the sciences, although it's a case by case basis). Qwyrxian (talk) 23:58, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

falsehood

there is no such thing as Tamil, Malayala, Kannada and Telugu Kshatriyas. it is just a neologism invented by casteists to associate themselves with Kshatriyas because some of these guys believe that being Kshatriyas somehow absolve them of all their stupidity. --CarTick (talk) 03:02, 28 April 2011 (UTC)