Talk:Grunge

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17 July 2005 4 January 2006

Napalm Beach

I would like to add Portland band Napalm Beach to the grunge band list. Live video: http://www.youtube.com/napalmbeachpdx OK? Live video: http://www.youtube.com/napalmbeachpdx Do I need to make a case for this addition? Thank you. Napooi (talk) 19:55, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

"The Leeds Grunge Scene"

I refer to http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/jan/30/leeds-grunge-scene and http://www.thecamdencrawl.com/artist/pulled-apart-by-horses. Should this be added to the article, before perhaps mainstream media fully adopts the term? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomvasseur (talk • contribs) 15:26, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Ash?

We should add Ash to the Grunge band list? im adding them, if you have a problem with it talk to me and not just change it back! 81.96.254.143 (talk) 13:21, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Headswim

Maybe we should add Headswim to Grunge Bands list? i am going to if you have anything to say about it, please write back. 81.96.254.143 (talk) 00:03, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Sprinkler

i think Sprinkler should be in the Grunge bands ouside seattle area beacause they were a Grunge band from Portland, Oregon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.96.254.143 (talk) 22:00, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

um, i put them in and it says talk on the discussion board first but i already have? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.96.254.143 (talk) 15:45, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree, Sprinkler is a Grunge band and should be added. im adding them. Megabar09 (talk) 15:03, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

It is a list of prominent bands, not an all-inclusive list. A minor Sub Pop act that only lasted 2 years and released 1 full-length album does not qualify. The article on the band itself only barely meets WP:BAND as it is. Tarc (talk) 15:09, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Style, roots, and influences

In this section, the writes notes that

"The lyrics are typically angst-filled — anger, frustration, ennui, sadness, fear, and depression are often explored in grunge songs. These lyrics may have come from the feelings of angst that are common in adolescence; many grunge musicians began their careers as teenagers or young adults. However, other factors, such as poverty, discomfort with social prejudices, and a general disenchantment with the state of society may also have influenced grunge lyricism."

This is far too general I fear, and could be used to describe a huge portion of the music that has been listened to by youth. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.171.35.62 (talk • contribs) 4 June 2006.

Doom was the most influential type of metal for grunge. Other than Black Sabbath, The Melvins and Soundgarden deliberately started playing slow after they attended a Saint Vitus show (see the Guitar World Magazine compilation book, which is entitled Nirvana and the Grunge Revolution). Soundgarden also recorded on SST the same label as Saint Vitus. Sludge and drone metal should be added as derivative forms of grunge.--Rivet138 (talk) 18:29, 10 October 2009 (UTC)Rivet138

Nu-Metal

I think nu-metal should be in the derivative genres section because nu-metal bands definately did derive their sound from grunge music. If not in the derivatives section, grunge's influence on nu-metal should at least be mentioned on here.

This article is not neutral in terms of the early Grunge movement giving Nirvana with "smell like teen spirit" and Pear Jam full credit for starting it or being the most popular bands of the era. Definetly not accurate! Before Nirvana came into the scene Alice in Chains with the album "Facelift" was already making noise in MTV and the whole world.

NU-metal is a stupid sub genre, i think its a load of crap and i hate some of the bands that get called nu-metal, like distrubed for example, im trying to convince people that distrubed are progressive metal. --JBrocksthehouse (talk) 21:14, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Um no, Nu-Metal has no real reason to be mentioned here. It crosses over with post-grunge music quite often, but pretty much is it's own offshoot of Alternative Metal inspired largely by Faith No More and RHCP (non-grunge bands), and has little in common with the original Grunge bands. As far as I know the "Heavy Metal" article covers that particular topic, and it's fine there. 74.69.64.52 (talk) 09:26, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Bush

Well i just think that Bush's old stuff was Grunge and if Hole was classed as Grunge so should Bush. They were more Grunge then Hole. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.96.254.143 (talk) 03:00, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Yeah i totally agree with you. Im sick of people putting bush in a post grunge genre, they were around before kurt died. So if more people argue this point, we could hopefully convince them to keep bush on the out of the seattle are grunge bands. --JBrocksthehouse (talk) 21:09, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

They generally utilized a more commercial-friendly, less "dirty" production for the most part and even had a cleaned up "hearthrob" at the center of their line-up (seriously? How anti-grunge is that?). Their first record was released well after 1992. They are POST-GRUNGE, and you're just going to have to accept it. And by the way, they are not the only band who formed/recorded before Cobain's death to be classified under the post-grunge category (Live and Candlebox are other notable examples). 74.69.64.52 (talk) 09:32, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

• I dont think Gavin being good looking means that changes their sound? Its not like he chose to be Good Looking really? anyway alot of you Wiki types take things to seriously so im not going to argue. 81.96.244.166 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:46, 4 September 2010 (UTC).

I agree totally with the above. If being commercial, radio-friendly etc makes you non-grunge, then please could you enlighten me as to what Nirvana's "Nevermind" classes as? And as for grunge musicians not being allowed to be good-looking, no one seems to have told the thousands of girls and young women who seemed to think Cobain was plenty bone-able. Anyway, as for Bush, I have added their name to the list, and inserted a reference to a respectable source describing them as grunge. So, person above the person above me, it would appear YOU are the one who is "just going to have to accept it". Peace xxx —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.127.118 (talk) 13:15, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Hole

Does anyone have a reference for Hole ever being a grunge band? JCDenton2052 (talk) 19:45, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

HOLE? JUST LISTEN TO THE TWO ALBUMS "LIVE THROUGH THIS" AND "PRETTY ON THE INSIDE" IF TEEN AGE WHORE WASN'T A GRUNGE SONG, THEN NOTHING NIRVANA DID EVEN CAME CLOSE.204.213.246.144 (talk) 07:30, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Allmusic.-5- (talk) 20:53, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

hello: Hole is a grunge band because A) Hole is from PORTLAND,ORE and played Seattle on a regular basis in the late 80's , early 90's. They had relseased a GRUNGE ALBUM calleed 'PRETTY ON THE INSIDE' Also, Hole has shared some subpop split singles with bands such as sonic youth... I don't know why it's so darn hard to get the information accurate on this page. I am extremely frustrated at the wholesale inaccuracies included with this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pronator (talk • contribs) 08:28, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Wholesale inaccuracies? The article is pretty well-sourced. You can look them up yourself. WesleyDodds (talk) 11:40, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

yes mr. dodds. I am addressing you specifically. whole sale inaccuracies.... grunge was dead, gone and finished by 1992.but you weren't there so you wouldn't understand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.213.246.144 (talk) 07:33, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. JCDenton2052 (talk) 21:28, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Why are you pretending that I told you to add those bands? You see the warning at the top of the section, it's been determined that those other bands shouldn't be listed. It goes by a case-by-case basis, okay, so if you feel those other bands should be added, discuss it here. I'm not the authority on this page, I'm just trying to maintain it. No other band in that section has a reference, so I don't know why you want some bands to have references while ignoring others.-5- (talk) 21:47, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Hole belongs, but the others don't. Smashing Pumpkins aren't grunge, and Bush and Silverchair are post-grunge. WesleyDodds (talk) 22:49, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Why is Allmusic a reliable source for Hole but not Bush, Silverchair, or Smashing Pumpkins? JCDenton2052 (talk) 23:26, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

"Grunge" was a label given to anyone who put so much as a single distorted riff into a song back in the days of 90's media over-hype. I really don't think allmusic's categorizations are reliable for much of anything, and for any stray mis-label such as this, just as many reliable sources could certainly be found to explain the Pumpkins non-grunginess, e.g. "While Smashing Pumpkins were part and parcel of the grunge era, they were never entirely rooted in the sound that Nirvana broke" Boston Globe. And certainly we can find better sources to indicate the (former) grunginess of Hole and Courtney Love, e.g. "Courtney Love Says Goodbye To Grunge On New Hole Release" VH1. Tarc (talk) 15:39, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Grunge is pretty well-defined, actually. WesleyDodds (talk) 21:10, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Ahh, damn, that comment came out completely wrong on my part, striking it out. Didn't mean to imply that that was the "only" meaning of grunge. Just that it was misused alot once the movement/scene became media hyped. Tarc (talk) 22:27, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Weak citation for your point, since the relevant part of it is Smashing Pumpkins were part and parcel of the grunge era. 86.44.43.63 (talk) 04:59, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

The meaning there is that the Pumpkins were popular at the same time that grunge was, but they were not a part of it. Tarc (talk) 14:09, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Add "Hard Rock" to influences?

I was just thinking that "Hard rock" would fit the influences spot for grunge. Bands like Led Zeppelin and Aerosmith and stuff had an impact. Just thought I'd consolt it here. (This is CheezerRox4502, just forgot my password) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.142.142.112 (talk) 23:21, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Heavy metal is more accurate and covers most of the same bands. WesleyDodds (talk) 21:09, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree that Hard rock should be added to the spot of influences for grunge. This way, musicians like The Stooges and Neil Young ("The Godfather of Grunge") would be noticed. --

Rivet138 (talk) 18:28, 10 October 2009 (UTC)Rivet138  

I agree with the whole hard rock being an influence. like listen to the riffs on the songs breed from nirvana. thats a pretty damn heavy riff for grunge. And some of the riffs from alice and chains and pearl jam. --JBrocksthehouse (talk) 21:21, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

I too agree with that. The Who is also an influence that many grunge bands have covered some of their songs —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.145.200.106 (talk) 13:54, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I sure would think that Hard Rock is a more accurate genre influence than Heavy Metal. Still, if Metal is going to be left in then Hard Rock shouldn't need to be included as well. 74.69.64.52 (talk) 09:35, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

I think we should change Heavy Metal to Hard Rock.--79.115.179.48 (talk) 08:38, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

We shouldn't. It was influenced by Heavy Metal, not Hard Rock. Don't forget that Hard Rock isn't just a harder classic rock. Not every heavy form of rock is related to it.--79.115.178.97 (talk) 16:12, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

The Toadies

Wouldn't they be considered grunge? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toadies —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.222.26.242 (talk) 08:36, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

No.--CAVincent (talk) 01:44, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

• who the fuck are the toadies!??????? --JBrocksthehouse (talk) 21:22, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was consensus for move to Grunge as the primary topic.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:15, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

---

Grunge music → Grunge — 86.44.43.63 (talk) 04:53, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

• Support. This is the most common name, and Grunge already redirects here anyway. Jafeluv (talk) 06:56, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
• Support Most everything on the disambiguation page is related to the genre to begin with, and everything else has a disambiguated title. Although if I'm missing something about the finer points of article naming and dismabiguations pages, I have no problem deferring. WesleyDodds (talk) 12:48, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
• Support: Looking at the incoming links to Grunge[1], it is clear that the genre is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. --JD554 (talk) 07:09, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Modern grunge bands

how come underground bands like pet salad and garden blue aint mentioned underground bands like them keep grunge alive —Preceding unsigned comment added by Justing101 (talk • contribs) 18:09, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

im going to add a revival section if everyone lets me —Preceding unsigned comment added by Justing101 (talk • contribs) 23:27, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Are there any reliable sources that discuss "grunge revival" ? If this is going to just be sourced to the same myspace stuff that the other page was, this isn't going to go very far. Tarc (talk) 01:28, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

well they do have they're own websites and spirit of metal has references to many new grunge bands and a page on last fm about the subject Justing101 (talk) 04:08, 17 October 2009 (UTC)justing101

right im adding it now Justing101 (talk) 04:11, 17 October 2009 (UTC)justing101

Did you listen to a thing anyone said, here or at the AfD discussion? Places like last.fm and myspace do not qualify as reliable sources. This is an encyclopedia, not a flyer or advertisement for your favorite bands. Unless this "revival" is sources to real media, please stop adding it to this article. Tarc (talk) 12:02, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

• Thers no such thing as 'modern grunge' its called post grunge people. post grugne was what bands were becoming after 1994 and up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JBloves2rock2626 (talk • contribs) 21:23, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Grunge supergroups aren't...grunge?

Darwin's Bulldog seems pretty insistent on removing Mad Season and Temple of the Dog from the group list. Thoughts? Tarc (talk) 21:35, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

My argument has nothing to do with either group being considered grunge, please see below. Darwin's Bulldog (talk) 22:25, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Clarification on definitions

The point has been made that supergroups do not constitute as the definition, they are the result of. To list grunge “supergroups” such as Mad Season and Temple of the Dog as “prominent” grunge acts is a fallacy. Both groups released one album each, and that was after the members of their respective groups had participated in culturally defining the grunge sound as it was known, so neither group can be logically listed as being prominent to the grunge sound. Yes, both the Mad Season and Temple of the Dog albums sold well, but that was because grunge had appealed to mainstream audiences, not the other way around. Darwin's Bulldog (talk) 22:07, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

That's irrelevant. We're simply talking about classification here. Tarc (talk) 23:29, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Also, factually wrong in the case of Temple of the Dog, which was not a "supergroup" in the normal sense because none of the members were well known to the mainstream at the time it was released. They were no more a "supergroup" at the time than, for instance, Mudhoney was (ex-Green River, ex-Melvins, ex-Mr. Epp, and if memory serves ex-Bundle of Hiss). And, Temple of the Dog was important in popularizing grunge, almost as much as Nevermind and Ten. Finally, the list in this article is not restricted to those bands which were highly important to defining the grunge sound. Such a list would need to eliminate several other bands.--CAVincent (talk) 01:42, 21 October 2009 (UTC) p.s. If someone can also defend Mad Season, by all means do. I never cared for them.--CAVincent (talk) 02:17, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Supergroups can only be considered "super" if they are composed of at least a few prominent/well known figures from already established acts. In this particular case, I’m arguing that since both Temple of the Dog and Mad Season were composed of musicians from prominent/established acts (Chris Cornell, Eddie Vedder et al. in the former, Layne Staley, Mike McCready et al. in the latter), that each group was the result of grunge having taken off and not the cause to its rise/brief stay in prominence. Neither group would have been known, or could have been known, if grunge hadn’t come into the mainstream consciousness by their members’ parent acts. Therefore, neither group can be considered "prominent" to grunge.

This is common sense here fellas, who has listed either group as a major influence? While groups like Pearl Jam and Alice in Chains have been listed as influential. Darwin's Bulldog (talk) 04:26, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Also, in response to CAVincent, this is lifted directly from the Temple of the Dog page {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_the_Dog_(album)#Release_and_reception)

“ Temple of the Dog was released on April 16, 1991 through A&M Records and initially sold 70,000 copies in the United States. The album received favorable reviews, but failed to chart. In the summer of 1992, the album received new attention. Although it had been released more than a year earlier, A&M Records realized that they had in their catalog what was essentially a collaboration between Soundgarden and Pearl Jam, who had both risen to mainstream attention in the months since the album's release with their respective albums, Badmotorfinger and Ten." ”

This emphasizes my point that had grunge had not of entered mainstream consciousness, that this group/album would have never received the amount of attention that it ultimately did as its sales didn't pick up until a year after it was released. Darwin's Bulldog (talk) 04:47, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Who lists Green River, the U-Men or Skinyard as a major influence? All were important, as was Temple of the Dog. You are trying to claim that only platinum selling bands whose members weren't in other platinum selling bands are notable. And who lists Gruntruck or Love Battery? If you keep this up, I'm gonna campaign to include Cat Butt. (Kidding, but they did record for SubPop.)--CAVincent (talk) 05:19, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Um, you obviously didn't read anything I just posted. Darwin's Bulldog (talk) 07:00, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

I see no reason not to list them. "This emphasizes my point that had grunge had not of entered mainstream consciousness, that this group/album would have never received the amount of attention that it ultimately did as its sales didn't pick up until a year after it was released" has no bearing on the fact that they are still grunge acts. WesleyDodds (talk) 11:25, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

This has no bearing on whether or not either group is considered grunge. This has bearing on how prominent either group was to popularizing the genre. Darwin's Bulldog (talk) 14:36, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

No it really doesn't; you're trying to make a simple list of well-known grunge bands into something more than it is. Time to move on and stop edit warring with everyone. Tarc (talk) 15:12, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Don't twist what my argument here is about. I have stated that the grunge acts Temple of the Dog and Mad Season do not belong on the list of "prominent" grunge acts. Darwin's Bulldog (talk) 19:06, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

For the record, Tarc has repeatedly shown that he has no clue to what this discussion is/has been about. He seems to think that I'm arguing that Temple of the Dog and Mad Season aren't grunge, when that has never been a point of discussion. Since he obviously has no clue to what all this is about, I fail to see how anything he’s contributed here can logically be considered. Darwin's Bulldog (talk) 20:19, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Keep up the attacks and I'll put in a block request for you at WP:ANI. In other words, chill. I have a pretty good grasp on the English language and understand quite clearly what your point is; that these bands should not be listed here since they came after grunge was already widespread, and were not a part of its rise. What I (and others, I believe) are telling you is that you are reading far too much into what the list is and what it is about. It is simply a list of "prominent", i.e. well-known and widely recognized, groups of this genre. You are trying to narrow the list parameter to "important in the rise of grunge", and we are rejecting that narrow interpretation. Tarc (talk) 21:27, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Go ahead and report me if you feel so necessary, I have made no such attacks. I had simply point out that you had made it clear multiple times on this page that you had no clue to what the argument was about and was being careful to make sure that no red herring occurred. Whether you feel that I'm tying to narrow the interpretation isn't important. I pointed out a major contradiction here on wiki: One article (grunge) stats that the band was prominent to grunge, while another article (Temple of the Dog) states that it gained ground due to grunge's popularity. Which should be corrected. Darwin's Bulldog (talk) 22:04, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

There is no contradiction; this is simply a list of grunge bands which you are blowing out of all logical and sensible proportion. Tarc (talk) 22:45, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. I have made very logical points defending my argument on this. Darwin's Bulldog (talk) 03:54, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Darwin's Bulldog has started a discussion regarding this at Wikipedia:Editor_assistance/Requests#Prominent_Grunge_acts. --JD554 (talk) 16:11, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to give my thoughts on this matter. I agree with what Bulldog has said in his original post - Mad Season or Temple of the Dog are not prominent bands in the Grunge scene. I see there is a bit of arguing here over whether they are supergroups. Temple of the Dog at the time the released their self titled album was not a supergroup as Cornell was technically the only "Famous" member (Yes Ament and Gossard played in Green River and Mother Love Bone but they are hardly well known musicians) and even that is debatable. I would say at the time they were not famous. However by todays standards they should now be regarded as a supergroup. I don't see the debate about Mad Season - all members had performed in famous bands.--Alowishus321 (talk) 23:35, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Grunge isn't dead !!!

Grunge isn't dead. The whole section about Alice in Chains needs revision as the band has reformed (without deceased Lane Staley) and put out a widely praised album, "Black Gives Way to Blue." I think the album is selling as well as can be expected in a file swapping world. I leave any changes for the wiki gurus to evaluate and make.

OCT 30, 2009 Bobroberts248 (talk) 14:44, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

• well yes, in a way it is dude. The only way for grugne to come back is if a fresh young band from seattle with the grunge sound makes an album and doestn sell out, than maybe grunge could be revived. --JBrocksthehouse (talk) 21:25, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

• shouldn't it at least be mentioned that 3 out of the 5 MAIN grunge bands are back(Pearl Jam of coarse never leaving) with popularity Alice in Chains Black Gives Way to Blue produced some of the most commercially successful singles of the bands career and Soundgarden single is doing really well, and its worth mentioning STP's new album giving them thier firtst number one on alternative radioFeedmyeyes (talk) 02:18, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Heather Dawn

As you yourself have cited in the paragraph below. There is no woman named Heather Dawn. This information is WRONG and HAS NOT been VERIFIED. This is a disservice to wikipedia, it's readers and is rather insulting to native Seattlites that you cannot get this one simple fact straight. I am going to change the name to reflect the actual FACTS. You can even Google Dawn Anderson's name. I have a back issue of backfire right here on the table next to me. "Dawn Anderson , editor"....

The journalist quoted as Heather Dawn in the "Early Development" section of this article is misidentified''''Bold text'; the editor-in-chief of Backlash (and also Backfire) was Dawn Anderson. See: http://10thingszine.blogspot.com/2009/02/dawn-andersons-backlash-fanzine.html 68.107.139.59 (talk) 01:59, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I've long wondered about that line in the article, but I haven't seen the movie Hype. Either Dawn Anderson is misidentified or there is some other music journalist named Heather Dawn whom I don't recall, but none the less existed in the Seattle grunge scene (which is possible, but I suspect it should be Dawn Anderson). --CAVincent (talk) 02:40, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I've collected a few more links concerning Dawn Anderson:

http://cycletheory.tripod.com/history/3.html

http://myhairsprayqueen.blogspot.com/2009/04/sgms-aggressionthe-metal-punks-are.html

http://www.sliver.it/nirvana/test/pages/memorabilia/magazines.html

I know Dawn personally and I would really like to correct this error. May I do so? TimFister68.107.139.59 (talk) 03:40, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Looking through the article history, it seems Ms. Heather Dawn joined the article here, in September 2007, added by one WesleyDodds. As I think is clear, Dawn Anderson really was a reasonably well known music journalist in Seattle during the early grunge period, and the zine Backlash was hers. Again, never heard of Heather Dawn. Short of watching the movie, I can't be 100% certain, but it sure looks like this should be changed. Anyone seen the movie recently who can comment? Wesley? --CAVincent (talk) 04:53, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

She was credited as such in the video. I distinctly recall pausing my DVD so I could cite her name. WesleyDodds (talk) 09:12, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

The woman in "Hype!" is Dawn Anderson, not Heather Dawn. Dawn was married to Jack Endino when Jack recorded Nirvana's Bleach album, and since Dawn was editor of Backfire (and later Backlash), she asked Jack to help her set up an interview, and was the first jornalist to write about Nirvana. This is a photo from the inserts to the "Hype" video:

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=433137512&albumID=74838&imageID=241380

If you look carefully at the text below the photo, you can make out Dawn Anderson's name.

May I change the article to correct this error? Tim Fister 68.107.139.59 (talk) 19:17, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

It seems like the filmmakers made an error. Not sure the best way to deal with a small, likely-but-not-provable error in a reliable source. I asked the question here.--CAVincent (talk) 03:47, 7 November 2009 (UTC) p.a. my suspicion is that we are stuck immortalizing a fictional Heather Dawn... --CAVincent (talk) 03:51, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

FWIW, I just checked imdb.com. The credited cast is listed here and includes "Dawn Anderson ... Herself - Local Music Critic", with no "Heather Dawn" in sight. Does that count enough for a reliable source to make the change? --CAVincent (talk) 02:41, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

It would if IMDB was a reliable source, unfortunately it isn't. --JD554 (talk) 08:10, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

I watched the video of Hype! last night, at Dawn Anderson's house no less. Nowhere in "Hype!" is she credited as Heather Dawn. I also have additional accreditation:

http://www.pcasacas.org/SPC/spcissues/22.3/kahn.html

The article is published in Studies in Popular Culture by Popular Culture Associations in the South, and is academic in nature. I hope this is considered a reliable source. This is a link to the association's information page:

http://pcasacas.org/SiPC/SIPC%20Pages/spcover.htm#General_Description

Tim Fister 68.107.139.59 (talk) 20:26, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

You can check out the lengthy article yourselves, but this is the relevant part:

Dawn Anderson, editor of a Seattle fanzine called Backlash, says in Hype: "If you say the word ‘scene’ everybody rolls their eyes and laughs at you . . . so a lot of people thought it had reached its peak and by the end of the year we were all going to go back to doing what we were doing, go back to our little small-town utopia. In about 1990, we all went, ‘Oh good, it’s over.’"

I hope this is enough. It not only identifies Dawn Anderson as the editor of Backlash, but also quotes the part of Hype! that is paraphrased in the wikipedia article we're referencing here. Tim Fister 68.107.139.59 (talk) 03:28, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm beginning to find this IP's links and explanations a bit more reasonable than the other side. Is there any support or citation for "Heather Dawn" beyond one user's "I saw it when I hit pause" rationale. This needs to be settled before it makes the WP:LAME Hall of Fame. Tarc (talk) 13:43, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

• BTW, in the closing credits of Hype, [2], I clearly see "Dawn Anderson". Tarc (1:23 in) (talk) 13:51, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Since no-one has written anything in a while, may I assume that I can change Heather Dawn to Dawn Anderson with reasonable certainty that it won't be changed back? 68.107.139.59 (talk) 00:28, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't see any reasonable objection at this point. CAVincent (talk) 01:25, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank you all very much68.107.139.59 (talk) 06:02, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Heather Dawn is back for some reason. Did I miss something, or should I refer to this page when I indicate the change? What do I need to do? SIR: PLEASE REFER TO THE TOP OF THIS PAGE. THERE IS NO SUCH PERSON AS HEATHER DAWN. NONE. IF YOU CAN PRODUCE EVIDENCE, I SUGGEST YOU DO SO. SINCE YOU'VE HACKED UP THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF MY HOMETOWN TO MAKE YOURSELF FEEL GOOD. THE LEAST YOU CAN DO IS GET THIS ONE FACT CORRECT OK? JUST LEAVE IT ALONE.. (EPIPHYSIS) 68.107.139.59 (talk) 04:20, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Soul-Crusher, consideration

I believe the album should definately be mentioned under "Roots and Influences." Piero Scaruffi, a man who has been used as a source in other articles like in Coheed and Cambria's, does call the album proto-grunge and Kurt Cobain himself has said it was one of his biggest influences.Rockgenre (talk) 02:01, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

This seems to me to be an exceedingly weak reference to support White Zombie as an influence on grunge. Compared to obvious influences like Black Flag and Flipper, I seriously doubt any reasonable references can support this. I'm removing from the article. --CAVincent (talk) 03:49, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Same ole story here,AllMusic is a fine source when people agree with it but when they don't it is a weak one, there is so much POV at these alternative music pages it is a serious problem funny when a lot of these people editing these pages were sucking their thumbs in grade school when Grunge and Alt rock/pop was dominate force in the early and mid 90's!!--Wikiscribe (talk) 20:52, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

AllMusic is a much better source when the reviewer is Erlewine, Raggett, or one of the other mainstays, and not the unknown pointed to in the above link, making an unsourced (and previously unheard of by me)claim that Cobain considered White Zombie an influence. By this same logic, a vastly stronger claim could be made to citing Celtic Frost as a grunge influence (and no, I'm not making that claim). I'll ignore the ad hominem thumb sucking bit. --CAVincent (talk) 22:04, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

STP

I have not been able to find a reliable source that specifies them as grunge. There are, however, a lot of sources that talk about the genre label being slapped onto the band in an accusing manner, but this doesn't make them grunge. My understanding is that the DeLeos struggled with the "rip off" accusations, which obviously led to the change in their sound. So is Core grunge or not? I'd rather there were a consensus (as opposed to a vote) to whether the band should be considered grunge or not. In my opinion, the grunge genre would be more of an insult to STP's proven integrity as a unique band. If they could be considered grunge, it would only be for the first album, the sound being a minority compared to their future releases. In addition, Core doesn't have "apathetic or angst-filled lyrics" (as defined in the Wiki article for "grunge") but rather political or socially influenced lyrics. Finally, in the archives, someone stated that removing STP from the list would be considered a breach of WP:POV, but I actually think having STP listed is neither notable (the debate is notable, and the accusations are notable, but that "STP is Grunge" is not notable) or reliably accurate. –Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 07:18, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Not grunge and never were grunge. Never considered themselves grunge. Keep addin back, though. If STP is grunge then so is Candlebox. Sheeeeeeep (talk) 21:32, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

I wholly agree their are to many conflicting and wavering sources on should STP be considered Grunge.I have brought this up many times but people here try to Stonewall and shook and jive people because they want it their way like this is Burger King or something--Wikiscribe (talk) 19:38, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Way to assume good faith there, sport. You're a credit to the project. Tarc (talk) 20:06, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Way to help resolve the issue SPORT what an ass-et to the project you are :)--Wikiscribe (talk) 02:01, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Right back at ya, bro. If you wish to press the reset button here and have an actual discussion of grunge vs. not-grunge for STP, I'm all ears. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tarc (talk • contribs)

Although their are some of the opinion that STP is not grunge, many if not most do label them as such and therefore should it not be included in the article as grunge as it is the widely viewed consensus that they are. Maybe with a note indicating the dispute over there genre. Paraxkill (talk) 00:05, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Ash?

We should add Ash to the Grunge band list? im adding them, if you have a problem with it talk to me and not just change it back! 81.96.254.143 (talk) 13:21, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Ash? I just looked up a few videos on youtube and it sounds like pure Britpop to me, even the early stuff. Tarc (talk) 13:43, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Britpop for sure - they're definitely not grunge. --Yankees76 ^Talk 15:22, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Sludge metal

Shouldn't this mention that Melvins' work helped shape sludge metal? Gothbag (talk) 08:36, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Australia

There should be a section on Australian bands and their influence on Grunge. It seems odd to quote Mark Arm citing Australia as the birthplace of Grunge, and then not go into further detail. So here's a bunch of facts and quotes I've collected in just a short while:

• Greta Moon of Au Go Go Records has stated clearly that: "The Scientists and Lubricated Goat were most definitely big influences on bands like Mudhoney in particular. The Scientists were the first grunge band. They were in existence before any of those US Sub Pop bands came along. It was US Sub Pop bands like Nirvana and Mudhoney that were openly avowed fans of the Scientists. And, indeed, the singer of Mudhoney, Mark Arm, has himself stated that: ‘By the time Mudhoney began two of our most influential bands were feedtime and the Scientists, along with the Stooges and Neil Young."link

• The Birthday Party, The Saints and The Scientists were often acknowledged by prominent Seattle bands as having inspired them. Bands like Cosmic Psychos and Feedtime were seen as peers. Jonathan Poneman - the CEO of Seattle's pioneering grunge label Sub Pop - recently came in to triple j and selected the five albums he wished he'd released on his label. All of them were Australian.link

• Grong Grong, an Australian band often called "pre-grunge" or "proto grunge", released a self-titled album in 1983. One side of the LP was called "Grong side", the other "Grunge side".link Another band called proto-grunge, who were contemporaries of The Birthday Party, was The Moodists.link

• Sydney band Box of Fish released a compilation called Invented Grunge 1984. They used the word grunge to describe their music and flyers from the early to mid 80s testify to this.link

• Southern Fried Kidneys released a 7" in 1985 called Graveyard. The cartoon cover art features "Thrash" as well as "Grunge" written on amplifiers, indicating Australians were already thinking of Grunge as a genre or style of music at this time.link

• Sydney grunge band Monroe's Fur relocated to Seattle in the late 80s. The band featured Guy Maddison, who is now a member of Mudhoney. Adelaide grunge band Bloodloss also moved to Seattle, which Mark Arm went on to front. One of the results of these Australian bands' interactions with Seattle was Bushpig, which had members of Australian King Snake Roost, the Thrown Ups and Mudhoney.

• Alternative Tentacles, Amphetamine Reptile, Sympathy for the Record Industry, Sub Pop etc. all signed Australian bands. "John Bigley turned me on to Lubricated Goat, Steve Turner convinced me to buy the first Cosmic Psychos and feedtime LPs. It’s largely undocumented how influential a lot of those [Australian] bands were on Seattle, as a large chunk of that crowd were spinning the aforementioned bands and a lot of the Celibate Rifles kinda stuff." - Tom Hazelmyer.link

• "Guy [Maddison], our base player, is Australian, and he claims in the early 1980s, in the scene that sort of revolved around the Scientists and Beasts of Bourbon, those kind of bands, those sort of swampy bands in Australia, in Sydney and Melbourne. They were referred to as grunge. In fact, the singer of Beasts of Bourbon Tex Perkins was crowned by some local magazine as the “Prince of Grunge.” And that was in 1983." - Mark Arm.link

124.169.174.92 (talk) 21:34, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Only the first would count as a reliable source. Even that runs into a big issue, given the author writes, "I do not here want to make any claim for the priority of usage for 'grunge.' Rather, I want to suggest that both Mark Arm (and other inner-city Seattleites) and Kim Salmon (and other inner-city Australians) were developing a similar musical form in reaction to punk and that both Salmon and the Seattleites found 'grunge' a useful term to describe this music. This similar reaction was to some extent a consequence of similar, or indeed the same, musical influences and to some extent a consequence of similar modes of indigenisation of rock music". WesleyDodds (talk) 02:23, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Seaweed

Seaweed - shared a lot of grunge's characteristics, but with a more straightforward uptempo punk/hardcore treatment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.17.34.232 (talk) 06:08, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

I disagree, grunge has very little or no distinguishable characteristics which define it hence why all the bands sound different.--Alowishus321 (talk) 22:12, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Attribution issue

There is an issue concerning the line "in 1993 Bruce Pavitt said that in the city, 'All things grunge are treated with the utmost cynicism and amusement [. . .] Because the whole thing is a fabricated movement and always has been.'"

The quote is attributed to Bruce Pavitt in 1993, yet the source article was published on November 15, 1992. Article: (http://infoweb.newsbank.com/iw-search/we/InfoWeb?p_action=doc&p_topdoc=1&p_docnum=1&p_sort=YMD_date:D&p_product=NewsBank&p_text_direct-0=document_id=%28%20122A761718286AF0%20%29&p_docid=122A761718286AF0&p_theme=aggdocs&p_queryname=122A761718286AF0&f_openurl=yes&p_nbid=C5EE62LVMTI5MTgxMjIxNi43Nzg1Mzc6MTo1OjE5NTc2&&p_multi=NYT3)

Also, the quote was made by Jonathan Poneman, the second founder of Sub Pop Records.

So the general attribution and the date are both incorrect. Jgreening072 (talk) 12:46, 8 December 2010 (UTC)jgreening072

Grunge from outside Seattle

This is ridiculous none of those bands are grunge. I personally think of grunge as the Seattle Sound. Someone will bring up here that they all sound different but it's the Seattle Sound i.e. based on geographical location. It even says it within the article here - Arm used grunge as a descriptive term rather than a genre term, but it eventually came to describe the punk/metal hybrid sound of the Seattle music scene.[4] So what is the basis for those bands being there? That they have a punk/metal sound? I can think of lots more bands from the period who could fit into that section, Hum must be grunge by that logic, sure i suppose Helmet is grunge too. When i go to remove the bands it says that Silverchair, Smashing Pumpkins etc. cannot be included... Why not!? What makes them so different from Stone Temple Pilots or Hole. There is absolutely no reason for them to be there. It even says here regarding STP: "Anti Grunge From a 1993 interview, "Although STP takes pains to distance itself from the grunge groups (Weiland jokingly labels himself a "new wave Renaissance guy"), the singer also admits his band is riding the grunge wave." Just because he is riding the grunge wave doesn't mean the band is grunge. By the logic of this article any band who came out in the early 90s and has a metal/punk sound is grunge and that is simply not correct. Also if these bands were so major in the genre why are they not mentioned in the history? It also says in this article "Grunge evolved from the local punk rock scene (in Seattle) - How could those bands be influenced by the Seattle local punk rock scene if they are not from Seattle. Can we use a bit of common sense here...--Alowishus321 (talk) 22:10, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

The problem here is that no-one seems to remember what grunge means. Nirvana were pretty much grunge in the beginning but not so much later on, Pearl Jam were never grunge, Soundgarden were never grunge, Alice In Chains weren't grunge but had some grungey tracks. The Seattle scene is not the same thing as grunge, the two terms were confused by the media; journalists asked a few talking heads and random kids from Seattle what the sound that was going around Seattle was called and they answered "grunge", which was true. Unfortunately, people took this to mean that all bands from the Seattle area were grunge bands when this was not in fact the case. Everyone who knows the history of grunge knows that, but Wikipedia seems to have missed it. The bands that actually played grunge were not as successful as the so-called big four grunge bands (unless you include Nirvana, who got big after ditching the grungier elements of their sound) because grunge is a pretty horrible sound, therefore most people have never heard real grunge, and so the confusion continues. As Wikipedia operates under the pretense of being an impartial encyclopedia it would be nice if Wikipedia helped to put this grunge myth to rest, but sadly this will never happen as most so-called reliable sources do not know what grunge means. Note that Nirvana, Pearl Jam and Soundgarden don't sound very similar at all, and the only genre that you can fit the three bands into comfortably is rock. Alice In Chains were really outsiders who were influenced by the Seattle scene (including grunge, to an extent), they were regarded as phonies by many inside the Seattle scene at the time because they were originally a glam rock band who appeared to change their sound when some alternative rock bands from Seattle got big, though I personally think they were a great band, better than Nirvana and Pearl Jam. Though essentially a pop rock band, Pearl Jam were accepted because they had roots going right back to Green River. Soundgaren were basically an metal band until later on in their career, where they became more eclectic. The fact that none of the so-called big four grunge bands actually played grunge for the most part does not seem to matter any more, that is why there is so much confusion about what is or isn't grunge. Bleach by Nirvana is the only album by any of those four bands that could be described as a grunge album, though it is not entirely grunge. I hope that clears it up for you, though most likely I have confused you even more! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.121.206 (talk) 14:57, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

grunge bands

add Willard "The Sound of Fuck" now there's some Grunge for ya — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.118.120.206 (talk)

I vaguely remember them. Think they tried to be anti-grunge to counter the MTV effect of having a Seattle band on 24/7, though they still had that kinda sludgy metal sound. Either way, the band article is shit, surprised it has lasted as long as it has in such a poor state. Tarc (talk) 13:25, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Smashing pumpkins

thank you very much to the editor who sent me this message and i would like to let whoever it is that i respect their opinions on this matter. For the matter at hand i grew up in the era when grunge was popular and Smashing Pumpkins was always considered a signature band of the style. Although their style was more experimental and veered from the style at certain points. The sam could be said of bands of other genres such as deftones(considered nu-metal despite their experimentalism), as well as led Zeppelin themselves (they created hard rock but added [psychedelic influence to their sound). These bands all had experimental sounds but they are all considered part of that genre. Smashing pumpkins uses the hard rock mixed with hardcore punk along with guitar distortion and apathetic lyrics. they experiment with shoegaze and goth, but bands like soundgarden experimented with pschedelia and acid rock and are considered grunge. Add a discussion point to this and we can decide the fate of this issue. I look forward to what you have to say and thank you once again for the understanding. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.89.201.79 (talk)

Just because MTV had the Pumpkins in rotation alongside Soundgarden and Pearl Jam, that doesn't make them a grunge band. I was a DJ throughout much of the 90's and do not recall them ever being lumped in with "grunge" at any time...and apart from that, I doubt any credible, reliable sources classify them or their sound as grunge either. My personal opinion is that the Pumpkins sound was rather unique, a kind of arena rock + punk. Tarc (talk) 19:43, 25 April 2011 (UTC)