Wikipedia talk:Talk page guidelines

Anonymous user -> unregistered user

{{edit semi-protected}}

As per

• WP:HUMAN,
• WP:IP,
• WP:ANONYMOUS,
• WP:IP edits are not anonymous and
• Meta:Unregistered user.

I think referring to unregistered users as "anonymous users" is incorrect and confusing. Registered users who do not adopt their real name as their username are also anonymous. In fact, registered users are arguably more anonymous, since their IP address is hidden.

Also, the phrases "anonymous user" or "anon" are often used in a discriminatory way by editors who do not fully appreciate (yet) the value and potential of unregistered users.

In light of this, please change "registered and anonymous users" -> "registered and unregistered users". Thanks. 113.197.147.212 (talk) 13:49, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Done. Kansan (talk) 13:52, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes WP:HUMAN and I live the sadness in front of my work. (read http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:70.29.168.231&redirect=no) Good luck --70.29.168.231 (talk) 01:42, 28 May 2011 (UTC) Great idea! I didn't even realize we had a violation on our hands in such a simple term! 96.48.109.20 (talk) 19:46, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Striking indef-blocked users

I recently struck the comments of an indef-blocked sock puppet [1], [2]. This is a practice that I've seen used before, but upon reflection I came here looking for the appropriate guideline to make sure I wasn't over stepping. Reviewing WP:TPO, it seems that a weak argument could be made that this is acceptable based on Removing prohibited material, Removing harmful posts, or Refactoring for relevance. But that argument is indeed weak. Because of this, I would like to ask for clarification so that I can understand whether this not unheard of practice falls within wikipedia guidelines. Thank you, aprock (talk) 16:53, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

bump aprock (talk) 04:28, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Without considering the identity of the poster, were the posts harmful or irrelevant? Unless the socks were being used in that discussion to mimic multiple users, I don't think striking was necessary. Blocked user comments will be struck from an RfX and straw polls but harmless article talk page comments don't really require striking. As a minor point, it looks quite unsightly on the linked page! Jebus989^✰ 19:02, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure what you're asking here. The posts were disruptive, so in that sense they were not harmless. With respect to "multiple users" I'll refer you to the identity lists for this user: confirmed and suspected. Do you have a pointer to a policy regarding RfX and straw polls? aprock (talk) 19:17, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Disruptive how? It's a discussion of article content, which is what article talk pages are used for. Sure, tempers are high but it is a contentious topic, and there are several other heated comments like "Thanks for your opinion. Now go read some basic literature about the issue and we may be able to have a conversation" from other users. It's not policy to strike blocked !votes in RfX, it is usually discussed on the RfX talk page (e.g. 1, 2); sometimes an editor will strike them, sometimes they are just indented and other times left entirely for the 'crat to decide. In all cases, people are quite reserved when it comes to crossing out other's comments Jebus989^✰ 19:31, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

For a description of the disruption caused by this editor, please see the arbcom finding of fact [3] (for which he was site banned, though previously indefinitely blocked [4]), which describes aspects of the disruption on this page. Given that an indefinitely blocked user is editing in a disruptive manner, what is the best way to handle the disruptive edits? In other contexts I've seen them deleted, made small, struck, and annotated. Is there any policy regarding this? aprock (talk) 19:56, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

You came here to ask for advice, but are staunchly arguing with everything I say. The comments he made on that talk page were not disruptive, they are not disrupting progress toward improving an article (WP:DE). His ArbCom case, list of suspected sockpuppets etc. is irrelevant to his talk page comments. Do you think that after a user is banned someone trawls through their entire history striking every talk page comment they've made?? Do you have any diffs illustrating these other contexts? Jebus989^✰ 12:18, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm certainly not trying to be argumentative, I was just responding to your Disruptive how query. I appreciate that you don't find those edits disruptive. I expect that we should set that particular issue aside as it's not the important issue here. Instead, it might be more useful to find or develop good talk page guidelines for handling these sort of situations. Thanks for the feedback. aprock (talk) 14:29, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

This is a tricky issue, and I believe that the answer is that it all depends. In your first example, your edit summary is "strike blocked sock". For someone who is simply blocked, and who is doing a bit of socking, there would need to be a reason to strike their comments (i.e. the fact that they are a sock of a blocked user is not a sufficient reason). I did not examine your examples, but in the Race and intelligence topic, I could well imagine that there was a good reason to strike the comments, and my opinion is that such striking could be justified. However, I do not think there is any guideline to prevent someone reverting the striking, and case-by-case discussions would need to be held if a disagreement occurred. For a banned user (per WP:BAN), I have often seen comments by likely socks reverted (i.e. removed), or collapsed ({{hat}}), or struck. In some cases, apparently good edits by a sock of a banned user are systematically removed per WP:DENY (that applies to long term abuse problems). If wanted, you might ask at User talk:John Vandenberg for an opinion (he has rolled back quite a lot of edits by banned users). Johnuniq (talk) 08:06, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Given this apparent lack of guidelines, does it make sense to add a section to the page which addresses these issues? aprock (talk) 14:36, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Just want to make sure this is 100% acceptable

Is it completely acceptable to re-arrange talk page discussions if the only thing I am doing is correcting indents of specific users and adding outdents? Occasionally, these get off leaving the discussion hard to follow. Ryan Vesey (talk) 18:42, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

I wouldn't recommend you search out talk pages to refactor, and some users will use indentation to clearly show which post they are replying to, rather than automatically indenting more than the comment above. Outdents are usually added at near enough the right time anyway, I rarely come across a talk page with a tiny column of text at the right. Nevertheless, if the formatting of a thread has been really disrupted to the point where a reader cannot follow the discussion, by all means change it. I think as long as you follow stop if there is any objection (from WP:TPO) and aren't refactoring multiple talk pages, there will be no problems Jebus989^✰ 18:52, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Taking the question at face value, the answer is no—please do not refactor comments. One reason is that refactoring will place an unnecessary burden on editors who are trying to follow the talk page (they have probably already read the original comments, and would now have to check what the refactoring had done, and waste time wonder why the refactoring was done, and whether it was accurate). Another reason is that refactoring can make it hard to work out precisely who-said-what in the future. In a contentious topic, it is sometimes necessary to provide diffs to show that a certain editor made a certain statement. Refactoring complicates that because someone viewing the diffs will wonder why the comment now displayed is different (even if only by an indent) from that shown in the diff. Again, time is wasted wondering why the comment was changed, and whether the changes have made some subtle change in meaning.

It is ok to refactor a comment if not much time has elapsed since the comment was written (and if no one has replied to it yet—I might tweak someone's indent if I am the first person to reply). Also, refactoring can be helpful when rarely needed to clarify comments. Refactoring a contentious discussion by tweaking indents or whatever is almost always a bad idea because someone is sure to complain. Johnuniq (talk) 03:39, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, Wikipedia:Refactoring talk pages states, "Good refactoring practices are an important part of maintaining a productive talk page," although other editors reserve the right to object on the grounds that any such changes are not "good".  Wikipedia:Refactoring talk pages specifically discusses modifying indents, "Correcting indentation levels" as a part of the section titled, "Non-contentious cleanup".  Regarding indents, sometimes two editors both make a reply in one column and it helps to add a blank line between the two posts.  No one will complain.  Unscintillating (talk) 13:55, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

I just took Unsintillating's advice and re-factored this section of the talk page just to show that this is much easier to read. Ryan Vesey (talk) 14:08, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

But you have changed my meaning, because I did not reply to Johnuniq, I replied to you.  Unscintillating (talk) 16:00, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Ok, I didn't understand that about it. So this way is correct, the way I reorganized it? I used to be under the impression that every line was supposed to be indented so a reader could know when a new comment started. Ryan Vesey (talk) 00:07, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

If by "correct" you mean that my meaning has been restored, yes.  Not everyone uses Wikipedia:Indentation.  Thanks, Unscintillating (talk) 01:38, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Indentation should be one step further than the comment you are responding to, which is not always the last comment made. For example, this comment and the one above from Unscintillating are both replies to the same comment from Ryan Vesey, so they both get the same level of indentation. If I wanted to reply to Ryan Vesey's previous comment (14:08, 21 May 2011) then I would use a lower level of indentation, the same as Unscintillating used at 16:00, 21 May 2011. JamesBWatson (talk) 12:02, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

WP:TPG being cited to protect vandalism from being removed

Twice I tried to delete the following vandalism from the talk page of the Rubyfruit Jungle article: [5]. Both times I was reverted and told that this guideline prohibited such deletion. The comment is a distasteful joke about vaginas left by an anonymous IP address as the first post to the talk page. It doesn't relate to any content of the article and is potentially offensive to editors who actually want to use the talk page for discussion. It is a textbook case of vandalism per WP:Vandalism: "Examples of typical vandalism are adding irrelevant obscenities and crude humor to a page". I don't understand how this guideline prohibits me from deleting obvious vandalism like this. If it does, the wording needs to be changed. Kaldari (talk) 01:05, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand how anyone could object to you removing that. It says right here in the TPG "Removing harmful posts, including personal attacks, trolling and vandalism." It seems like a clear case of vandalism to me.--Aronoel (talk) 01:18, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

The objector disagrees and has reverted removal thrice, claiming that the comment does not meet this guideline for removal and that removal is disruptive. Their objections can be found here in the following diffs: [6], [7], [8] (edit summary). --Danger (talk) 01:56, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Can someone besides me please weigh in on the discussion? I'd rather not resort to edit warring over it. Kaldari (talk) 20:01, 31 May 2011 (UTC)