Talk:Doctor of Education

Ed.D. vs. Ph.D.

There is much confusion here concerning the Ed.D. designation, so much so that this article is highly biased.

As college professor in the United States, the Ed.D. is primarily awarded as an honorary degree. Those who receive the title honorarily are, as a matter of custom, not entitled to the title of "doctor".

Beyond honorary appointments, some colleges do award the Ed.D. as a professional alternative to the Ph.D. in education (similar to the DBA vs. Ph.D. in business). The difference is that the professional degree is more applied science, where as the Ph.D. is more theoretical. Typically, the top research universities only hire Ph.D.s as professors, since those universities are primarily focused on research. Teaching schools hire a mix with the Ph.D. graduates as preferred. The reason is that theoretical research typically nets more NSF and other grant money as well as increases the likelihood of publication in an A-list journal. For similar reasons, consulting firms tend to prefer the professional degree graduates.

Because the Ph.D. is more theoretical, it is often the more difficult of the two programs; however, this depends on the specific school and program. In the doctoral heirarchy, however, the Ph.D. is held in higher regard.

It is also worth noting that the Ed.D. degree is the primary "doctorate" granted by many online diploma mills and online universities.

I agree with what you've written save the bit about the Ed.D. being primarily awarded as an honorary degree in the U.S. To the contrary, I think that's relatively rare. JJL 03:44, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Really? The College of William and Mary has an Ed.D. in their School of Education. Is W&M a diploma mill? Sometimes it is not really clear (see here) why two degrees exist. I think this is a bit more complex and peculiar to an institute than you might think. For instance, their PhD and EdD programs in Counselar Education contain the exact same courses. Quite frankly I think in many cases it's a matter of politics.--The Founders Intent 18:27, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, it's probably best not to defend something's intellectual rigor by making a fallacy. 64.111.151.124 (talk) 23:14, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

He said that if it's a diploma mill, then it usually grants an Ed.D. He didn't say that if it grants the Ed.D., then it's usually a diploma mill. I believe the point is that weaker colleges offer the weaker degree; stronger colleges may offer either (or both), and as you note the reasons are often somewhat quirky. JJL 21:11, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Title of Doctor

So, if you have an Ed. D, would you be bestowed the title of "Dr. ...."?

Yes, it is a full doctorate that tends to be issued by the school of education within univeristies. No difference, at all, from a PHD

Yes, you get to be called Dr. But, see footnote 2 here: [1]. JJL 06:04, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

The footnote you reference is confusing. It states that Ed.Ds are only considered "Doctorally Prepared" in the field of education. Duh! Is that not true of PhDs also? One is only "Doctorally Prepared" in their field of study. Also, the cited source for this information is meaningless. The AACSB means nothing outside Schools of Business; thus the AACSB has no standing in the debate surrounding Ed.D credentials.

Ed.D. vs. Ph.D.

I do feel that an Ed.D. requires less research than a Ph.D., although I am aware that some Ed.D. students do perform an equivalent amount of research nonetheless. Looking here [2], for example, the degrees are at different levels ("Each refers to a different level of achievement"), and the Ed.D. is a professional doctorate for practitioners. Another very specific example, from a dept. offering both the Ed.D. and Ph.D. in the same subject, is here [3]: "Both a proposal and a dissertation are required by all doctoral students. PhD students must defend their dissertation during an oral examination." Apparently, Ed.D. students need not defend their dissertation. From NYU again, this program [4] requires 6 more points (credits) of dissertation research and 6 more points of research courses for the Ph.D. than the Ed.D. This is exactly what I am talking about! The Ed.D. often requires a more project-sized investigation. Look here [5] for another example: An Ed.D. requires "the preparation and defense of a dissertation" whereas the Ph.D. requires "preparation and defense of a research dissertation" (emphasis added). These are on the same web page, contrasting the degrees. Look also here [6] and here [7] (same program, Ed.D. vs. Ph.D.); for the Ed.D., "The dissertation may involve research and evaluation and/or development of theory-based curriculum and staff development programs." (i.e., evaluation and development of programs are viable options). Here's a 3-year Ed.D. from the same school [8], showing the clear professional focus. I think it's clear that the Ed.D. requires, asa rule, less research, and allows a more project-based appraoch. I'm sure there are exceptions. JJL 15:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

   The comment that Ed.D. candidates are not required to defend their dissertations is incorrect (see Ed.D. Inaccuracies, below).

The comments above are very difficult for me to understand. I am currently doing my EdD at a British University. We have to submit our dissertation to an examination commitee and undergo an oral defense with internal and external examiners. The quality of our academic work is also to the same standard as PhD students. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.204.233.81 (talk) 10:37, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Ed.D. Inaccuracies

Ed.D. Inaccuracies

The statement that Ed.D. candidates are not required to defend their dissertations is incorrect. I have an Ed.D. and work in an environment with many Ph.D.s and Ed.D.s. I also sit on a comprehensive exam committee of an Ed.D. program. I don't think I have ever met an Ed.D. (including myself) that was not required to orally defend his or her dissertation. In a study of Ph.D. and Ed.D. dissertations (Content Analysis of the Ph.D. Versus Ed.D. Dissertation,Winter 1994 issue of Journal of Experimental Education (vol. 62, no. 2), 158-68.) significant differences were not found between dissertations published by the two and the authors concluded that there is little or no difference in academic rigor.

With respect to the footnote indicating that Ed.D.s are only considered doctorally prepared in education, I would consider that inaccurate as Ed.D. programs in psychology are recognized as meeting the licensing requirements for a practicing psychologist in the U.S. (see Pyschology Education in the United States - http://www.ccla.pt/infocenter/estrutura/Psychology.pdf). Thus, Ed.D.s in Psychology are clearly recognized as being doctorally trained in the field of counseling psychology and not education. Other Ed.D. programs focus on competencies in organizational behavior, institution administration, organizational leadership, and educational technology as well as many other areas of focus.

Comment about Ed.D. inaccuracies

As someone who will hopefully be pursuing a Ph.D. program (Fall 2007 – Higher Education Leadership), I would like to acknowledge a statement that was made by a previous person.

The 'Ed.D. Inaccuracies' author wrote, "Thus, Ed.D.s in Psychology are clearly recognized as being doctorally trained in the field of counseling psychology and not education." Technically - this is a true statement. However, I don’t care for it because most people pursuing that type of program generally end up working in an educational institution upon completion of the degree. That is why it is an Ed.D. in Psychology. An Ed.D. program in educational psychology focuses on how psychology works within the context of education, or its application within an educational institution.

For the past two years, I have spent MANY hours researching Ed.D. and Ph.D. degree programs; primarily looking at the difference between their approaches to, and their application of research. In my experience, I found that most Ed.D. websites in counseling psychology stress the importance of obtaining a job within the field of education (or educational related setting) when they finish their program.

[Counseling Psychology] and [Psychology] are are not the same at Virginia Commonwealth University. Although psychology has become a catchall for various subsets, it is generally associated with clinical psychology. Regarding Ed.D., see my comments above.--The Founders Intent 19:08, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

In fact, most university websites are careful to point out that those interested in obtaining a terminal degree in psychology (outside of an educational setting) should pursue either a Ph.D. or Psy.D. I think it is inaccurate to lead readers in believing that one who goes for an Ed.D. in Psychology (with the goal of being a counselor) will be pursuing jobs in the private sector when finished with their degree. Yes, they’ll be certified. No, that’s not generally the degree that one would pursue when leaning towards the private sector.

what type of literacy skills do doctors need??????????????????? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.113.132.57 (talk) 23:03, 3 January 2007 (UTC).

    Mad ones. --192.154.91.225 (talk) 19:34, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

EdD vs PhD

Do EdD and PhD graduates have the same status when they are applying for the professor post in the university? Will PhD graduates always have a higher priority? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 221.126.253.120 (talk) 11:21, 18 February 2007 (UTC).

NPOV

From the second paragraph onwards the article reads like a piece of propoganda. Don't compare PhD and EdD so much - it seems like this article is more of a defense of the legitimacy of an EdD in the face of claims that PhDs are more glorious, or whatever. If you want to compare the two, find some sources and put this argument in a section of its own. The freddinator 02:32, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. The article doth protest too much, methinks.--Lhakthong (talk) 22:58, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

EdD V PhD

The PhD is one of the oldest forms of doctoral designation in the UK and Ireland. However, there are many other forms of designation for those who have studied at doctoral level including D.D., D.Psych etc. The key difference between an Ed.D. and a PhD is that the Ed.D. student works within a community of learning while the PhD student works alone - there are clearly benefits to both of these experiences and neither is better than the other.

Citations missing

This article needs to be cited throughout. Please add citations as possible, where possible; otherwise, feel free to remove uncited POV. – Freechild (¡!¡!¡!¡) 13:15, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

List of schools

This is unusual in an article like this (compare other articles) and seems to conflict with WP:LIST. I think it should be removed. JJL (talk) 04:07, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Still Problematic

The WP:NPOV problems do not seem to have resolved very much. The article immediately assumes an offensive posture relative to the PhD and maintains this theme in various places. It also makes statements that, while not outright false, are grossly misleading. For example, "the Ed.D. and Ph.D. are both recognized for appointment as a lecturer or professor in a university" omits the fact that the overwhelming majority in academia hold a PhD. The most glaring omission is the long-established and still ongoing debate about the degree's continued existence, which is well-documented in the literature e.g. Rethinking the EdD, Reclaiming Education’s Doctorates, the ESL report, Deering's 1998 paper (Eliminating the doctor of education degree: It’s the right thing to do. Educational Forum, 62(3), 243–248), various articles in The Chronicle of Higher Education, among many such articles. Respectfully, Agricola44 (talk) 22:34, 12 February 2009 (UTC).

Agreed. JJL (talk) 02:47, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. --Lhakthong (talk) 23:50, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Contradiction in first paragraph

"Like other doctorates, (e.g., the Ph.D., D.A., D.Sc., and so on), the Ed.D./D.Ed. is a terminal degree and is not recognized by the National Science Foundation (NSF) "as equivalent to the Ph.D.""

The way this reads is that the NSF does not consider a Ph.D. to be equivalent to a Ph.D. I would suggest making the change that I indicated with a strike-through. 96.241.24.246 (talk) 18:42, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

More on the First Paragraph

IP 108 has language in the first paragraph that misrepresents the citations. The lanugage is, "The EdD...is recognized by the National Science Foundation as equivalent to the PhD." Following this are two citations. The first is from the NSF and states that the EdD is a research degree. The second is not from the NSF, but from the Department of Education and says that the NSF claims that the EdD is equivalent to a PhD. This second citation is second-hand information and cannot be used to support the sentence. Further, IP 108 keeps deleting sourced material claiming that the EdD is not equivalent to the PhD. Wikiant (talk) 14:58, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Wikiant continually uses information from a few discrete university programs as evidence that the EdD is not equivalent to a PhD. There are numerous empirical studies that show otherwise. The evidence cited in the first paragraph is directly from the Department of Education and the National Science Foundation and is there for descriptive purposes. The National Science Foundation makes very clear that the EdD is a research degree equivalent to a PhD on its Survey of Earned Doctorates. Any discussion from individuals or specific programs is best addressed in the "Differences between an Ed.D. and a Ph.D. in Education" section, where Wikiant previously added "Others claim that the Ed.D. emphasizes a broad scope of knowledge and skills related to the practice of education, whereas the Ph.D. emphasizes more breadth and depth in theory and research methodology than does the Ed.D." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.7.244.202 (talk) 01:06, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

If the NSF does say that the EdD is equivalent to the PhD, then provide the citation. What you have provided is a citation of what the DoE *claims* the NSF says. Further, universities in the US do not obtain authority to grant degrees from the government, and so the DoE and NSF claims carry as much weight (I would argue less weight) than claims by the universities themselves. The "Others claim..." sentence cites actual universities that grant the EdD and PhD degrees. These cites are at least as relevant as the DoE and NSF cites. Wikiant (talk) 13:06, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Going back to the older and more balanced description.

A couple of users keep deleting sourced and referenced material without explanation. I'm happy to discuss the pros and cons of the deletion, but simply deleting material isn't acceptable -- particularly when the deletions all involve counter claims to claims being made elsewhere in the paragraph. What you end up with is POV. Wikiant (talk) 12:50, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

I just posted a warning on User_talk:Onemoreforyou. You might want to seek a WP:3PO. However, if there is just more unexplained reverting of the same content, a WP:3PO would likely be useless, and you can report it here--Lhakthong (talk) 14:12, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

It seems to be just one editor using multiple accounts. One account has already been blocked but he or she has just started using another one. This editor is going to end up banned if he or she continues to edit war without discussion. He or she has been warned multiple times so it's in his or her hands at this point. ElKevbo (talk) 14:21, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

I assume you are also just one person using multiple accounts. (If you deny this, I can play as you do using different accounts and acting schizophrenic.) All I am trying to do is to return the old version, the one that was there before you added unjustified bias and disdainful comments. The academic status of any degree holders is not evaluated by the degree name but by the capacity to produce a good research. No one in education field will look down upon you at any conference, for instance, only because you have a certain degree. Especially in the education field, as educational studies itself is an applied social science, there is no difference between an Ed.D. and a Ph.D. Also I have seen a number of Ph.D. holders incapable of conducting a good research. The difference in academic status does not lie in the degree appellations, but in actual research works that can really demonstrate a degree holder's capacity. Simply citing others' views is not enough. If you want to spread such a misleading bias, come up with actual data to show the difference in academic status. Goodwillforyou

The persistent edit-warring by Goodwillforyou and his/her multiple accounts are sock puppetry, plain and simple. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Onemoreforyou. --Biker Biker (talk) 19:02, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

And for good measure the article has been edit-protected for two weeks in what is hopefully a reasonable state so no amount of new sockpuppet account creation will have an effect - during which time perhaps this person will get bored and move on to something else. --Biker Biker (talk) 19:08, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Setting aside your ad hominem attacks, I appreciate your personal opinion. But it's a bit idealistic and it's definitely not shared by everyone. If you read some of the sources you have tried to move around in this article you'll quickly see that many people do not believe that the EdD and PhD are equivalent. ElKevbo (talk) 22:31, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

I haven't wandered by in quite a while, but I see that matters haven't improved much since my last visit. While I understand that emotions can run high on this issue, Goodwill's points are all testimonial. The article still doesn't really reflect reality in that the EdD is, in fact, a beleaguered degree, whose elimination is frequently discussed within academic circles (see my above refs), and the fact that the overwhelming majority of academics hold a PhD or MD (in medical schools). It would help balance the article to add, for example, the Jacobson paper from the The Chronicle of Higher Education. Thanks, Agricola44 (talk) 15:02, 2 September 2011 (UTC).

The Jacobson article about Levine's view you mentioned above is mainly about the doctorate in majors called "educational leadership" and "educational administration." You should also be reminded of the fact that there are some universities that offer 3-year 'PhD' programs in educational leadership or educational administration, all of which fall under Levine's criticism that such practial doctorates must be eliminated. At the same time, there are very rigorous research-focused EdD programs in academic subjects such as educational sociology, educational neuroscience or second language acquisition. At Teachers College, there are many research-oriented EdD programs in academic concentrations, and Levine (and also the article itself) continuously clarifies that his attack is on the doctorate in administration and leadership. Thus, the names of the degree, either the Ed.D. or the Ph.D., do not well clear out the target of Levine's attack, though he points to only one of them. Most Ed.D.s are not similar to the internship-based M.D. in any aspect. I agree with Levine and all the others that any doctoral degrees earned with credits and internship must be gone, but such an argument does not directly translate into an attack on a particular degree, as both the Ed.D. and the Ph.D. are installed in such practical concentrations depending on the universities. If there is anyone who wants to point this out, make sure to make it clear that 'both EdDs and PhDs in educational administration and leadership are under certain criticism' instead of the so far attempted inconsiderate blanket rejection of one particular degree regardless of its awarding institutions and/or majors. Exactbird (talk) 00:30, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Another SPA jumps in. Let's not get bogged-down in minutiae. The point is that this article is a POV piece that strains to give an overly-rosy assessment of the EdD degree. It purposely excludes numerous sources that discuss the degree's beleaguered status and the fact that there are somewhat frequent debates within academia whether to eliminate it altogether. Until that side of the story is included (perhaps in a "criticisms" section, as is conventional in WP), the article will remain a POV-ish mess. Agricola44 (talk) 15:02, 14 September 2011 (UTC).

Agreed. If anything is for certain, it's that there is no clear consensus on how an Ed.D compares to a Ph.D., because there is no categorical uniformity on what an Ed.D is. In some programs it is a research degree (sometimes equivalent to a PhD and other times not), in others it is altogether different: a terminal professional practice degree.--Lhakthong (talk) 17:16, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. {{sofixit}} :) ElKevbo (talk) 18:21, 14 September 2011 (UTC)