Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2011 September 10

10 September 2011

Kokondō

Kokondō (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

I believe this page was deleted based on incomplete information and would like to request reconsideration of the decision. It appears the administrator who deleted the page was recently suspended for unrelated reasons, so I have not been able to get a response to my query with him/her.

To address the concerns that this is an irrelevant or defunct martial art, this is indeed a legitimate marital art practiced at a number of schools nationwide. Official website is http://www.kokondo.org and is referenced in the article. I do not have a comprehensive list of dojos, but I know they at least exist in Connecticut, Florida, Washington, New Mexico, Arizona, California, Idaho, Missouri, and Ohio. The reviewer who indicated that it was clustered around a city in Connecticut is incorrect. There are no notable competition successes from students because the art discourages competition and instead focuses on real-world self-defense. It was founded around 50 years ago, which I would argue doesn't qualify as a recent splinter, and has been continuously practiced since. There are at least a dozen other websites on this art. See example links at http://www.kokondomartialarts.com/links.htm. NJG302 (talk) 23:01, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

• Comment The AFD for this article was closed by Cirt who is no longer an administrator so please don't bash the nom for not discussing it with him first. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:51, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion. Wikipedia is not the yellow pages. Me-123567-Me (talk) 01:17, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
• Well, yes, we have to endorse Cirt's deletion, but that's not the interesting question here. What we're interested in is whether it's appropriate for the article to be re-created. For me, the most appropriate place to begin a search for sources is in the archives of Black Belt Magazine but I've been unable to find any coverage in it, which is not an encouraging sign. Please could the nominator list the specific sources that he proposes to use?—S Marshall T/C 10:17, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
• I have referenced the website of the International Kokondo Organization above, which is the governing body for this martial art. Information on that site lists the history of the art. Could I request advice in what additional documentation is necessary to make the article pass notability tests? It seems like the arguments against its notability that were cited in the original deletion discussion can be addressed by the arguments above. This is certainly not one of the larger branches of martial art, but it is one that has a nationwide presence and has been around for half a century. NJG302 (talk) 23:01, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
• Sure. The notability test is called the general notability guideline, and what it means for this article is you need to produce evidence that there has been non-trivial coverage from reliable sources that are independent of the subject. Let me explain each of those terms.

  "Non-trivial coverage" means that there must be an article, entry, or news item of some kind that discusses Kokondo. Kokondo need not be the main subject of the article, but it does have to be more than a trivial mention.

  "Reliable sources" mean sources with some kind of editorial control or supervision. It specifically excludes any kind of user-submitted content. Yes, that does mean that for our purposes, Wikipedia does not count as a reliable source.

  "Independent of the subject" means the source cannot be financially or editorially connected with Kokondo in any way, and it can't be a press release of any kind.

  I hope this makes sense to you! This notability rule is why I was asking about Black Belt Magazine; an article in there, or some similar publication, would be exactly the kind of source we need.—S Marshall T/C 23:12, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

• temporarily restored for discussion at Deletion Review (could possibly one of the other admins who hang around here do this once in a whole, instead of only me; it's not suitable for a bot, because there are some times where it's not needed because it's in userspace, and a few where it wouldn't be permissible, for reasons of BLP or copyvio. DGG ( talk ) 23:34, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
• Endorese deletion and don't recreate The article had all the shortcomings mentioned in the AfD. In addition, it was the article itself that said "the largest concentration of dojos is near South Windsor, Connecticut". Of course, if suitable references can be found (and I don't mean an article in the local paper) that's another story. I know my search didn't find any, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Papaursa (talk) 03:36, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
• There are articles in newspapers that discuss Kokondo and its history. Some of those are listed as links at the bottom of the article. According to Wikipedia guidelines, those appear to be valid sources for establishing notability. Could you please explain why those do not meet the criteria? Here's an example: http://web.archive.org/web/20070928083508/http://www.tri-cityherald.com/news/2001/0305/Story4.html . Other links are included at the bottom of the article. NJG302 (talk) 04:02, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

This is an article in a local paper about a guy giving a seminar. The reporter interviewed him and wrote down what he said. Personally, I don't find that article to be significant coverage about a martial art. Papaursa (talk) 04:45, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

• It appears to meet the criteria that S Marshall laid out above:

  "Non-trivial coverage" - It is a news article that discusses Kokondo and gives it more than a trivial mention.

  "Reliable sources" - The source is a legitimate newspaper in Washington state with editorial control/supervision.

  "Independent of subject" - The newspaper has absolutely no connection to Kokondo and this was not a press release. NJG302 (talk) 05:58, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

• That source looks perfectly good to me. There is no problem with local newspapers as sources.—S Marshall T/C 15:54, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion Article still lacks good sources. A couple of sentences about the organization in a local paper doesn't seem significant to me. It's "drawn from the primordial rites of the Far East" although it was created in 1970 in Connecticut? Really? I hope you can come up with better sources. I have nothing against this art, but I'm not seeing notability yet. Astudent0 (talk) 18:03, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

• Yeah, it does need a second source. But notability isn't a matter of opinion; it's entirely objective and evidence-based. Either there are two halfway decent sources or there aren't.—S Marshall T/C 20:07, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

I would say it still needs a first source. I don't think that article qualifies as significant coverage (and WP:GNG says "significant coverage" is required). To me, significant is a higher hurdle to clear than non-trivial. I would say our disagreement might indicate that it's not "entirely objective". Papaursa (talk) 03:44, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

• Endorse deletion. I contributed to the deletion discussion previously, but am not familiar with the deletion review process, so I read the instructions. It seems to me that the main issues are: (1) were there errors in process, and (2) is significant new information available? On the first point, I believe that the correct process was followed in the nomination for deletion. On the second point, I have looked again for sources, and the situation appears the same to me—only passing mentions in sources other than primary sources. I do not discount the possibility that the subject might meet Wikipedia's notability criteria, but I have not been able to find convincing support for this. To the initiator of this review (NJG302), I would ask in a respectful manner: what sets Kokondo apart from the many other martial art styles or schools that have a presence in several states or several countries? It is not uncommon for the founder of a school to seek affiliates in other countries and thereby (legitimately) claim an international presence, but this does not in itself make that school notable (since several other schools can make the same claim). If you can clarify what it is that makes Kokondo truly noteworthy (in the same way that, say, Albert Einstein is noteworthy amongst the thousands of physicists who have published international, peer-reviewed articles), you would start to have a case for supporting its inclusion in Wikipedia. Trust this commentary helps. Janggeom (talk) 14:52, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
• Here's another local newspaper article that is about Kokondo. http://www.palmcoastobserver.com/news/palm-coast/Sports/12092010123/Martial-arts-leaders-swing-into-academy. This newspaper is based in Florida. Kokondo was established in Connecticut, but I have now found mentions of it in papers in Florida and Washington state.

  This is another third-party site that mentions Kokondo. I can't verify that this is not a form of advertisement for this guy, but it does include a spotlight on a Kokondo dojo in Florida. http://www.samurai-sword-shop.com/connector/jukido-jujitsu-academie-sensei-george-rego/. I will keep looking for other reliable sources. If notability to the level of Einstein is the bar, we're never going to get there. I will also never be able to make the case that this is a art that is as impactful as some of the more mainstream arts. I'm just hoping to make the case that it is of interest to enough people that it would be useful to keep the Wikipedia page up. NJG302 (talk) 00:08, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Yael Meyer

Yael Meyer (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

I deleted this article per an AFD discussion last November. Yesterday, User:AndresGottlieb claimed that she's notable and offered to fix the article so I userfied it. He now thinks it's ready for article space but doesn't know how to file a DRV so I'm doing it for him. Ron Ritzman (talk) 12:54, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

• If what's posted in userspace is what is proposed to be the article; there's no assertion of meeting WP:MUSIC; self-published albums available at itunes doesn't meet the criteria AFAIK. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 00:07, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
• The assertion of notability seems to come from the references to significant coverage in reliable sources, the very first criterion listed at WP:MUSIC. This one definitely helps, the others I'm not so sure. Ignoring iTunes, YouTube, first-party links and obviously unreliable blogs, we have: an album review from a site that appears unreliable from its own description (not that that stops other articles from using it [1]); an MTV blog which may or may not be reliable under WP:NEWSBLOG; a very brief mention in a source which I know nothing about; and most promisingly this interview in a Chilean magazine. I'm not convinced any of this is enough to meet the guideline, but none of it was discussed at the AfD. Restore and relist for further discussion. Alzarian16 (talk) 14:42, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
• There's also this recent article (in spanish)from the most popular printed newspaper in Chile: http://diario.elmercurio.com/2011/09/09/espectaculos/musica/noticias/3c0a1adf-1dc6-4b47-8811-7379a0448aac.htm , I believe it proves notability according to the first criterion listed at WP:MUSIC Is it enough? Gottlieb (talk) 17:04, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
  • It is a few paragraph profile of the artist in anticipation of his upcoming show in Chile. Very much a WP:ROUTINE coverage, which does not give rise to notability; quoting from our notability guideline: "Planned coverage of pre-scheduled events, especially when those involved in the event are also promoting it, is considered to be routine." The article in El Mercurio is just that. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 17:58, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
    • I understand, is any article mentioning upcoming live presentations, even if it is not the main theme of the article, as is the case, considered "Planned coverage of pre-scheduled events"? If you're right on this and the sole existence of this article isn't proof od notability, doesn't the fact that this mainstream chilean newspaper's article mentions the appearence of Yael's songs in 4 TV shows ("Life unexpected" (Liv), "Drop dead diva" (Sony), "Awkward" (MTV) and Private practice" (Sony)), the mention of her participation in a very notable chilean movie (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qu%C3%A9_pena_tu_vida) and it's upcoming sequel, or the mention of the Rolling Stone Magazine best 50 albums achievement in 2004 prove notability in terms of the criteria presented in WP:MUSIC? Gottlieb (talk) 18:33, 12 September 2011 (UTC)