Talk:Elizabeth of Vermandois, Countess of Leicester: Difference between revisions

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The notion that Gundred was of royal birth is generally thought to be a modern myth (see the Gundred article). I'd just remove that statement but it would be nice to find some other motivation for Warenne's actions. Loren Rosen 19:59, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Gundred

It has been said that due to the pope having not blessed the marriage of King William, that the birth of Gundred was not reported as it would have violated the will of the church. If not of William, then who's daughter is she? She's in the Domesday book as his daughter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonff (talk • contribs) 14:28, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not in Domesday so far as I know. Her father is thought to be Gerbod, hereditary advocate of St. Bertin in Flanders, though I don't know how certain the evidence is for that. Loren Rosen 03:17, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dates don't add up. If Isabelle was born 1081 and married 1096...

..she was 15 not 9 or 11 when she married. Further, the usual date of the wedding is given in other sources as 1100. And Emma is said to be born in 1102. There's general agreement from several sources that she was about 15 when she gave birth. If so, then her birthdate would have been circa 1087. That makes fer 13 at the wedding. I'm guessing that she was betrothed at 9 or 11...as was the custom. I'm looking for more references, but the ones given don't support all those dates and article is internally inconsistent. 69.108.25.101 (talk) 07:03, 23 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, the Complete Peerage gives her birthdate as 1081 (as does the first line of the article), making the discussion of her being 9 or 11 when she married out of place. I'm going to fix her birthdate throughout the article, but am researching the possibility that whoever wrote the edit on her young marriage may have confused betrothal date with marriage date (she was certainly still quite young when she had her first child and Robert de Meulan (Beaumont) was certainly much older, but she was definitely neither 9 nor 11 when she married - that is likely the date of her plight troth, as an article on Meulan and his political theories mentions that he was instrumental in peace negotiations involving Isabelle's uncle and father and spending a lot of time with them at that time; he saved them from further war with Henry I of England and they rewarded him by promising him Isabelle - but the promise and the marriage were probably at two different times, as was the custom.LeValley 18:19, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Alice of Leicester

Numerous sources give Isabelle/Elizabeth a daughter named Alice (English name), who married William of Grandmesnil (or Grentmesnil). Alice of Leicester. This would make an incredible number of living children for Elizabeth (15) but Maud doesn't appear on some other lists. There is no actual reference page for this article (just "external links," in which genealogies (one of which appears well-researched) are listed - but there are several other well-researched by conflicting genealogies and quite a bit of actual history written about Elizabeth and her progeny - so a real academic source should be found. I can't find an actual biography of Elizabeth (and what there is on her two husbands is scant). Perhaps the Maud confusion comes from the one external link (Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists...) in which the book lists Isabel of Vermandois and her marriage to Robert de Beaumont and then two entries later mentions a Maud de Beaumont (with another de Beaumont in between). That Maude was born after Isabel had died, so she can'd be her daughter - and I can't find another Maud de Beaumont. I don't have all the charts from that book in front of me, but someone who does (Jamie Allen) has published an exhaustively research pedigree (with every bit of the ARCAC book incorporated) and comes up with 14 children, one of them an unnamed girl and another named Matilda - which is usually translated as Maud in the French). However, Matilda-Maud was actually named Aubree - so is it possible this article has listed Matilda-Maud-Aubree as two different people? At any rate, I'd like to know the exact page of the Ancestral Roots book where this information is given, as I can't find it. The "unnamed girl" sometimes mentioned in some sources (including Jamie Allen's) also eludes capture in any genealogical source that I know of. But if Alice of Leicester didn't exist, then a lot of Grandmesnil genealogy is completely off...LéVeillé 23:12, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

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 ::Yep, the Complete Peerage gives her birthdate as 1081 (as does the first line of the article), making the discussion of her being 9 or 11 when she married out of place.  I'm going to fix her birthdate throughout the article, but am researching the possibility that whoever wrote the edit on her young marriage may have confused betrothal date with marriage date (she was certainly still quite young when she had her first child and Robert de Meulan (Beaumont) was certainly much older, but she was definitely neither 9 nor 11 when she married - that is likely the date of her plight troth, as an article on Meulan and his political theories mentions that he was instrumental in peace negotiations involving Isabelle's uncle and father and spending a lot of time with them at that time; he saved them from further war with Henry I of England and they rewarded him by promising him Isabelle - but the promise and the marriage were probably at two different times, as was the custom.LeValley 18:19, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
+== Alice of Leicester ==
+Numerous sources give Isabelle/Elizabeth a daughter named Alice (English name), who married William of Grandmesnil (or Grentmesnil).   Alice of Leicester.  This would make an incredible number of living children for Elizabeth (15) but Maud doesn't appear on some other lists.  There is no actual reference page for this article (just "external links," in which genealogies (one of which appears well-researched) are listed - but there are several other well-researched by conflicting genealogies and quite a bit of actual history written about Elizabeth and her progeny - so a real academic source should be found.  I can't find an actual biography of Elizabeth (and what there is on her two husbands is scant).  Perhaps the Maud confusion comes from the one external link (Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists...) in which the book lists Isabel of Vermandois and her marriage to Robert de Beaumont and then two entries later mentions a Maud de Beaumont (with another de Beaumont in between).  That Maude was born after Isabel had died, so she can'd be her daughter - and I can't find another Maud de Beaumont.  I don't have all the charts from that book in front of me, but someone who does (Jamie Allen) has published an exhaustively research pedigree (with every bit of the ARCAC book incorporated) and comes up with 14 children, one of them an unnamed girl and another named Matilda - which is usually translated as Maud in the French).  However, Matilda-Maud was actually named Aubree - so is it possible this article has listed Matilda-Maud-Aubree as two different people?  At any rate, I'd like to know the exact page of the Ancestral Roots book where this information is given, as I can't find it.  The "unnamed girl" sometimes mentioned in some sources (including Jamie Allen's) also eludes capture in any genealogical source that I know of.  But if Alice of Leicester didn't exist, then a lot of Grandmesnil genealogy is completely off...LéVeillé 23:12, 23 October 2011 (UTC)