Wikipedia talk:Consensus

"Consensus is a partnership between interested parties working positively for a common goal." -- Jimmy Wales

Process diagram

About the diagram in the process section, though - it seems to me to be a gross over-simplification, and would belong better in some sort of essay than in a policy.--Kotniski (talk) 09:42, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

The diagram was the focus of long discussion some time ago. The view that I put, which seems to have prevailed, was that the diagram should be simple and immediately understandable for newcomers, that "policy" pages primarily exist to serve as an introduction for the newcomers. What policy pages should avoid is the becoming of forums for high-level oblique philosophical discussions between highly experienced Wikipedians. A number of diagrams were produced. Kim came close to collecting them all together, in an essay, I think. A more detailed version of the diagram that was there for some time previously can be found, half shaded, at WP:BRD. Kotniski, "gross" would seem to imply that you think the simplification is too great, to the point of taking it into error. What exactly is wrong with the diagram, or what is missing that is essential? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:34, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Well, all right, if it were labelled as a "simplified diagram of the process" or something, I guess I wouldn't object to it. But when we make things simple for newcomers, we do them no favours if we make them think that it really is that simple. (If there's an error, then I guess it's the reference to "compromise", which - as noted above - is not necessarily the right solution.)--Kotniski (talk) 14:37, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Here are some observations on the current diagram:

• You don't have to edited a page to disagree with a change made by someone else, but the diagram seems to suggest otherwise.
• The time to wait to see if the article is edited further is unspecified (might not seem significant but I've seen arguments based on the length of time between changes)
• Evaluation of the arguments for and against the change (e.g. checking more sources) should be given greater prominence—compromise may not be necessary.

Uniplex (talk) 15:09, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, those are all good points - particularly the first one, as we seem to be encouraging people to edit-war by telling them that their disagreement doesn't count if they don't physically revert.--Kotniski (talk) 15:34, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Here's a new diagram aimed at covering most of the usual cases: Uniplex (talk) 13:06, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Uniplex: that's not bad at a glance, but there are a couple of obvious revisions that need to be made

• you need to move the 'make an edit' box up, so that it's clear that that is the effective starting point of the diagram - otherwise there's no clera entry point, visually speaking
• say 'make an edit or propose a revision', to cover both cases
• 'outcome clear' and 'change needed' are ambiguous - they need clearer referents

let me think about it a bit more, beyond that. --Ludwigs2 14:33, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

It is probably not accurate to believe that the policy is examined primarily by newcomers. Another major use occurs when disputes arise and editors look for a way to resolve it. This double use accounts for easy case/hard case problem. For newcomers we want to show how the practice works in most cases (the easy ones), but when there is disagreement the same page is supposed to provide a way out of hard cases. --Ring Cinema (talk) 16:50, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Here's an updated diagram with some additional notes to hopefully address and clarify some of the points made. Ludwigs, one thing that the diagram is trying to show is that the process needn't start with an edit: it can also start with someone reading a page (and agreeing with what they see, or taking to talk if they don't). Ring, I think the hard cases are covered by spending a lot of time in box #1: the two eventual options are to give up, or to somehow find a clear way to proceed (which might for involve, for example, compromise or ArbCom) and allow box #3 to be done. Uniplex (talk) 18:11, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Box #3 should probably read "make the change" (that was clearly decided upon at box #1). Uniplex (talk) 18:27, 13 November 2011 (UTC) Updated so that it does. Uniplex (talk) 19:51, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Again, the more that is specified, the more that seems to need to be specified. The diagram works better when the categories are vague. Let the editors figure out how it works, because they are smarter than us and have real problems to solve. 2. I'm not sure which box is supposed to be number one, but in any case the presumption that editors are reasonably open to changing their views is not what I observe at all. This is an easy case solution applied to a hard case reality. Elsewhere in this discussion I read the view that compromise is overrated and editors should just figure out who has the better argument; in fact, that is not how it goes on the hard cases. The only way to break a deadlock of determined editors without recourse to authoritarian or democratic processes is through compromise. At least, I haven't heard or seen another way. --Ring Cinema (talk) 18:39, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

(And it bears mentioning that democratic solutions are also authoritarian.) --Ring Cinema (talk) 18:42, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

The proposal is not that compromise should be disallowed or even discouraged, but that it should not be given undue weight (in the diagram) over other debating techniques (such as persuasion, and objective discussion, which are listed ahead of compromise in the policy text). Uniplex (talk) 20:38, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

RE Uniplex’s three points Here are some observations on the current diagram:

• You don't have to edited a page to disagree with a change made by someone else, but the diagram seems to suggest otherwise.

The diagram is not about rights to disagree. It is about productive methods for moving forward. It is not productive to merely disagree. To be productive, you need to have a solution. This is where the starting edit comes in. If you disagree, then it is likely that only you know what you disagree with, and only you have read the archives specifically reading into the point of disagreement. You are then ideally suited to make the edit that fixes what you consider to be the problem.

If you can’t make you edit? Is it because you don’t have a solution? Then this is idle hand wringing.

The great advantage of making the edit is that it provides a focus for subsequent discussion, if there is disagreement.

• The time to wait to see if the article is edited further is unspecified (might not seem significant but I've seen arguments based on the length of time between changes)

Good point. Why don’t you suggest some lengths of time. I suggest you do it in the caption, not in the figure. For me, an edit is ratified after other regular edits further edit the page. I think “time to wait” is better measured in “edits by others” than in units of time.

• Evaluation of the arguments for and against the change (e.g. checking more sources) should be given greater prominence—compromise may not be necessary.

I think this sounds like a call for a new guideline on logical evaluation of arguments. Ring Cinema has a good point about rejecting weaker arguments in favour of stronger arguments. Where differing opinions are mutually exclusive, it does not make sense to “compromise”. However, it can be helpful to refocus on what is important and to sidestep the point of disagreement. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:22, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Uniplex, I must object to you making discussion here that references an offsite hosted image. One problem is that for me it is today inaccessible. Another problem is that the use of offsite images does not sit well with the copyright licensing for this discussion. Please upload your images onto Wikipedia, with free licensing, before referencing them. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:22, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

If it's faster and easier to upload them elsewhere, then I don't mind discussing them while hosted offsite. The final image would need to be uploaded to be useful to us, but the drafts seem unimportant to me. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:36, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Having images integral to the discussion offsite is crossing the line with respect to conducting offsite discussions. I therefore object to this discussion progressing with the image(s) not being available on and from this site.

Personally, I object, because for whatever reason, the site hosting the image(s) is blacklisted to me. I should not have to deal with issues of access to other sites in order to participate here. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:11, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

User:Uniplex's 1st image referred by him above, reasonably assumed that he licenses it the same as he does his text that discusses it.

User:Uniplex's modified image referred by him above, reasonably assumed that he licenses it the same as he does his text that discusses it.

OK, I got access to Uniplex’s images (easily uploaded and placed left and right). I must strongly object that these diagrams are a model for consensus building. His flowcharts introduce endless cycles with don’t involve edits to the page. Endless cycles of discussion and evaluation before an edit is allowed leads to discussions loosing focus, with tangential lines and debate scoring taking a life of its own, and newcomers to the debate being unable to decipher the point of the discussion. The point of any discussion should be the improvement of the page. The asserted improvements are evidenced in the actual edits to the page. With further discussion, especially where reverting occurs, the so called improvements are modified, and without modified edits being made to the page, it becomes increasingly unclear what edit is subject to the current debate. If in any cycle, an edit to the page is not even attempted, then the process is failing.

Contrary to some of Uniplex’s legend, “Every change to a page should be the results of following the blue/green path”, the ideal situation of wiki editing involves purely direct editing to the page. Discussion is only needed if there is disagreement, or the edits are too fast/complex for the edit summaries to suffice. Indeed, a huge number of decent mainspace pages don’t even have activity on their discussion pages. Uniplex’s model places committee work ahead of actual progress, and this is directly contrary to the wiki-method.

Edit warring and talk page filibuster are two extremes of failure to work productively. One is an extreme lack of discussion. The other is an extreme lack of editing. If there is any conflict, both discussion (to allow for a verbose description of perspectives) and direct edits (to focus the discussion) is needed in every cycle. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:24, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

SmokeyJoe, One of us is misunderstanding the process depicted in the diagram. Per the diagram on the right, here's how I see a normal edit progressing:

1. Editor "evaluate[s] existing text per sources, policy and guidelines; consider[s] further change"

• Is it clear [to our editor] how to proceed?
• Yes → [Based on that evaluation], was a change decided upon [by our editor]?

3. Yes → [Our editor] make[s] the change

In other words, (1) and the two questions loosely represent the mental processes all editors should go through when editing. Step (2), which is about involving others, is only entered when it is unclear how to proceed. Ideally the editor realizes when this is, but sometimes it takes BRD to find out...

I think this is a good description of the flow that actually occurs, though of course in reality many edits are not always preceded with as much evaluation of existing text against sources and policy as might be ideal. --Born2cycle 04:01, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Born2cycle, yes, we made different interpretations. Your interpretation is to me a stretch of interpretation in matching the diagram to good practice. However, even your interpretation as stated above places a high hurdle before the editor who has a first edit to make. It is clearly contrary to WP:IAR, and contrary to the message “you can edit this page right now”. Regarding File:Consensus Flowchart.svg (the current diagram), I take it as granted that at the “Edit” step, the editor will have thought first. However, little more than that. It should not be necessary, even recommended, that an editor evaluate policy, guidelines or past discussions. (Evaluate sources, yes, no argument there). RE: “Involving others, is only entered when it is unclear how to proceed.” By making the edit, the editor defines the focus of discussion that is too follow. If the editor is unsure and needs to ask a question, fine, do so, but asking questions first is not wiki-editing. It is good, to be encouraged, but is not wiki-editing and should not be mandated. My interpretation of the suggested diagram is that it calls for pre-agreement before editing. This amounts to requiring edit-request notices to be placed and for positive response(s?) before editing occurs. This would kill the vitality of the project. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:47, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

(ec) Thanks, SmokeyJoe, for uploading the diagram (I didn't do it myself as I could find a suitable sandbox for images but I guess it makes no odds). The diagram tries to capture the overall process of making an edit to Wikipedia and to cover the vast majority of cases. If it only helps level our understanding here at talk, then it's been a useful exercise; if it can be rolled out further, all well and good, but of course, it must be 100% clear in what it is saying before this could happen. The trickiest part of the process to explain or advise upon is the details of box#1 as this amounts to "how do you make a decision?", and "how do you win a debate?"—whole books have been written on those subjects, so I don't think we should try do this in the diagram; we can use the text for this aspect. Box#1 is most often a mental process: someone reads the page or just a recently changed portion and compares the presented information with their own knowledge (for which sources may well be available); whether they realise it or not, they often evaluate against guideline and policy (perhaps thinking "that sentence is too long to read easily", or "why should I believe that: it's not cited", or "that's true, but it's only half the story"). If they don't think any of these things then the blue/red path applies and the consensus status has been reinforced a little. I'll see if I can update the text on the diagram to make the mental aspect clearer. Uniplex (talk) 07:01, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Well, I'm quite confident that Uniplex did not intend to convey that pre-agreement is required before editing. But since you interpreted it that way, it's likely others will too. That needs to be rectified. How about just changing the text in box #1 to say:

1. Evaluate existing text as needed per sources, policy and guidelines to determine if change is warranted

Is adding the "as needed" sufficient to address your objections? If not, do you have any suggestions? --Born2cycle 06:29, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Okay, the proposed diagram does not reflect WP practices. The first thing that happens when an editor sees something in an article that should be changed is simple: the editor makes the edit. That's not what the proposed diagram says. Is this an attempt to smuggle in a change in the policy? As things stand today, there is not a crisis in consensus. We don't need to change anything. The best way to have a well-functioning editorial process is to let experienced editors do their editing in a context of stable, predictable policies. But a change in the policy is not called for and this diagram would definitely undermine the current practices of Wikipedia. --Ring Cinema (talk) 06:59, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

No, there's no nothing underhand going on; it's simply a good faith attempt to better understand and promote best practice. Uniplex (talk) 07:34, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Born2cycle, I’m not seeing anything close to an improvement over the current diagram. It is clear on the two essential points: (1) If you disagree with a previous edit, then you must discuss; (2) The point of the discussion is the next edit.

If there is any problem with the current diagram, the only one I can see is the point made by Ring Cinema. Sometimes, the discussion leads to the conclusion that someone’s argument for change is rejected. In this case, the word “compromise” doesn’t fit, and there is no subsequent edit. However, the rejection of an edit, and discussion that answers a challenge, is not, per se, consensus building. It is mere maintenance of the existing consensus. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:01, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

W.r.t. your (1), it doesn't have to be a previous edit (per se) that you disagree with: you may just read a page and find something that you think is wrong. Uniplex (talk) 08:13, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Very confusing. The arrow points from 2 to 1??? What does that mean? Start at 1, obviously proceed to 2, then, no wait, follow the arrow, but then what makes it 2? Okay leave out 2 but it is second so it must be important. So then maybe start with 3. Yes, that is clear. Read the notes outside the boxes, ignore the labels, follow the path, try to get to 1.

What is the problem with consensus that this confusing diagram addresses? We already have the policy operating with all kinds of good results. If the diagram is different from the written policy, which should be followed? If there is no difference, why is it there? It's not clear on any point that I can see and it doesn't have the practices correct. Believe it or not, most editors know how to manage without our help. Let's not get in their way. --Ring Cinema (talk) 07:18, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

You find the diagram confusing? You start at the top at Provisional Consensus and then follow the blue arrow to box #1 where you evaluate the text, and from there to the bottom decision diamond. Making that decision will take you either to box #2 (black/no arrow) to consult with others or to the decision diamond in the center (blue/yes arrow). From the center diamond you either go to make the edit (box #3) or, because you've decided there is nothing to change, you go back to the top and off to evaluating more existing text. --Born2cycle 07:23, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The problem with the current diagram that the proposed diagram addresses is that the current diagram implies that edits are made without consideration for anything. The edit-with-consensus process does not start with making an edit; it starts with evaluating the existing text. I mean, the current diagram applies to vandalism edits that aren't noticed the same as it applies to consensus edits... there is no distinction.

So I don't understand the objection to the proposed diagram, especially with my suggested "as needed" change to the wording in Box #1. It addresses the problem with the current diagram I just described, and accurately describes how edits are normally done (as I outlined above). --Born2cycle 07:23, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Latest update incorporating suggestions above:

Uniplex (talk) 07:44, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Ring, I added the numbers primarily to facilitate discussion; they should probably be removed in a final draft. Further simplifications are possible: the two notes on the left, though useful, are not essential, so could go to the text. The note asscociated with box 2 could be incorporated into the text of box 2. Uniplex (talk) 08:05, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Break (process diagram)

Just my impression on coming back into the discussion - I'm not seeing anything useful in the (latest version of the) diagram that's been proposed. I can't imagine how anyone would understand anything better on looking at this diagram than they would by reading text describing the processes. I would rather do without a diagram altogether - to be honest, the activity we're talking about doesn't follow any set process or algorithm, and it's misleading to imply that it does.--Kotniski (talk) 09:40, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I'd be quite happy to lose the current diagram: it purports to be general but it's scope seems very limited; it's purpose is unclear (we've had suggestions that is both for and not-for newcomers). Uniplex (talk) 10:11, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

The diagram proved so successful that the problem it addressed has largely gone away. The problem was that many otherwise intelligent editors couldn't seem to rationalise direct wiki editing with a consensus building process. There was in some places a lot of Bold editing turning into edit warring, and in other places endless discussion that didn't move anywhere. Many diagrams were suggested. Some had more detail than others, but they coalesced around one core feature – the editing cycle during conflict includes both discussion and editing. The purpose of the diagram is to provide a very simple picture to communicate a proven method for consensus building through wiki-editing. The diagram is applicable for all editors, whether newcomer or old timer.

Today’s unease with the diagram I find difficult to understand. What, in theory or practice, is wrong with it? There was a problem with “compromise”, which Kotniski has just recently largely attended to, but no suggested problem of structure. Uniplex’s diagram suffers a very severe flaw – it includes cycles that don’t involve any editing. Experience, experience from before the rise of popularity of WP:BRD, was that endless discussion disconnected from actual editing would lead to tangential meandering, off-topic arguments, impenetrable talk page threads for newcomers, and exhaustion.

The advent of the consensus diagram would seem to be here: Wikipedia_talk:Consensus/Archive_3#What.3F_You_still_don.27t_get_it.3F_Do_you_want_me_to_draw_a_picture_or_something.3F.21. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:40, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I think the question of what's wrong with it has largely already been answered, by Uniplex near the start of this thread - for one thing, it implies there must be an edit and a revert (or further edit) before any discussion can start, and that the only initial way of expressing your non-acceptance of an edit is to fight it.--Kotniski (talk) 12:52, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

The implication is right. There is little point in starting a discussion in the absence of an edit and a revert (or further edit). Maybe a point is for editor education, but it is a discussion not directed at improving the page. Some people seem to like discussion for the sake of discussion, but it is not so productive. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:53, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I've seen many people start discussions questioning existing text or proposing an addition, without any recent edit having been made—these are all part of the consensus-forming process. Uniplex (talk) 14:12, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I can't agree that Joe's interpretation is either current practice or good practice. Often discussion is started before making a change (if you know it's going to be controversial, or you have doubts about it yourself, or...); and often discussion of others' edits is started without reverting or editing further. I think such behaviour would even be regarded as more admirable in many cases, as it avoids edit-warring and maintains a more respectful atmosphere.--Kotniski (talk) 14:37, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps you two are only thinking about high traffic pages? I've just gone through several random articles. Many of them don't even have talk page content! Of course if something is controversial, then discuss. But how do you know it is controversial. If you think you can improve it, and there is no history of related edits or discussion, you should make the edit. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:33, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, this is the point - sometimes one approach is right, sometimes the other, but the diagram would have people believe that there's only one route to follow.--Kotniski (talk) 08:23, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Oh, and another problem I'm seeing, looking at it again, is that the "implementation" of a "compromise" is treated the same as a bold edit, not as the establishment of a new consensus. If we are to assume the compromise really was accepted by (almost) everyone in thorough discussion, then this is wrong - it would imply that any one editor who doesn't accept the consensus and wants to be a pain about it can effectively keep the discussion going (or returning to the prior status quo) indefinitely.--Kotniski (talk) 13:01, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Again, I don’t see the problem. Implementation of the compromise may yield unforseen issues. An implementation of compromise should not be quickly assumed to be a new consensus. The change may attract new participants. It is quite right that this may go on for some several, even many cycles. If there is a disagreement, it is not normal for a consensus to appear after a single cycle. Eventually, if the process is followed, if most of the edits are not reverts, the process finds a consensus. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:53, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Depends what you mean by a "cycle". It seems you're considering a process where consensus is reached chiefly by editing, and it may be that this is the process that the author of the diagram mainly had in mind. However an important part of the process in practice is the bit where editing alone fails, and agreement is reached through discussion. In this case, I think we have to say that the agreement reached (provided certain conditions are met, such as sufficient publicity and correct closure) does represent a new consensus, and indeed an even stronger one than the implicit one we say exists when something hasn't been disputed for some amount of time. If explicit consensus decisions are not to be respected as consensus decisions, then we go back to the situation where nothing can be done without unanimity except by resorting to edit-warring.--Kotniski (talk) 14:44, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the author of the diagram (who was not me), is a strong advocate of “consensus is reached chiefly by editing”. I was a convert.

RE: What “represent a new consensus”. Do you not accept the definition: “Consensus is achieved when there are no further changes made”? You seem to be creating an artificial definition with too many caveats for it to be workable. Your notion of a “consensus decision” I submit is elusive in practice.

RE: “where nothing can be done without unanimity”. This goes to the question of how the group decides to reject the weaker argument. It’s a good question. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:42, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

No, I don't accept the definition that "consensus is achieved when there are no further changes made", whatever that would mean in practice (presumably that consensus is achieved when Wikipedia is switched permanently into read-only mode). Consensus on Wikipedia means that, when valid arguments are considered, most people agree (or something like that). It does not mean that everyone agrees, or that everyone who's prepared to edit-war over the matter agrees. --Kotniski (talk) 08:23, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Maybe a longer version? Would you accept the definition that "consensus is achieved when there are no further changes made (directly relating to the point in question) after the same editors make other accepted edits nearby, and there are no unanswered objections on the talk page. " (obviously page protection, or editors departing exacerbated is not evidence of consensus). The problem I have with your definition lies in the pragmatics. Who decides when valid arguments have been considered? Who decides who and how many can be excluded from the “most people agree” camp? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:12, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

An uninvolved admin (or other uninvolved editor of good standing). Obviously that then raises further questions, but thankfully we don't have disputes over such matters too often. But I don't think we can have a definition that makes consensus (ultimately) dependent on "no changes being made" - that would effectively entitle any single belligerent-minded editor to prevent a matter being settled in a way he/she doesn't like. --Kotniski (talk) 10:46, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

My objections are that the proposal diagram doesn't reflect current practice, it can't be edited, and it doesn't self-destruct when an editor realizes that it misrepresents the contents of the article. Again, if the diagram says something different from the article, I assume that the diagram should be ignored. Where does it say that? And if that is the case, what is the purpose of the change? --Ring Cinema (talk) 13:09, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Ring Cinema, I don’t get what you are saying. What is “it”? Are you saying that the current diagram is in conflict with the policy text? If so, can you explain more precisely? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:55, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

When you say 'current' do you mean the diagram now in the article or the draft change proposal above? --Ring Cinema (talk) 13:58, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

By 'current', I mean File:Consensus Flowchart.svg, the diagram currently on the policy page. Note that policy pages are not articles. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 14:03, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

For the curious, the wikijargon for all pages in the WP: namespace is "project page". WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:16, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I think Ring's point is that whilst policy pages should be edited only with care, it should still be possible for anyone to edit them, including diagrams. This may be a fundamental problem with WP, that it doesn't provide a diagram editor. Uniplex (talk) 14:17, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I have to apologize for a confusion. I misread or misspoke "current diagram" in some places above as the current proposal. So, to be clear, the current diagram (as found now on the page) is not a problem with me. It states less than the policy so it's fine. The proposal diagram on this page is a problem. It's not an accurate statement of the practice. Again, my apologies. --Ring Cinema (talk) 14:26, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Ring, you said "if the diagram says something different from the article, I assume that the diagram should be ignored"—the current diagram does say different to the policy. Cherry-picking is not fine: it's misleading; were similar to occur in an article it would be called POV. Uniplex (talk) 14:44, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

My point is that if the diagram is different from the policy, a mistake was made in the creation of the diagram. For that reason, the current diagram -- simplified and therefore clearly not a full statement of the policy -- is useful but the muddled proposal on this page is bad (i.e. confused, unclear, contradictory). There's no question of cherry-picking with the current diagram because it's a stripped-down representation that can't be mistaken for the full policy and probably does help a newcomer. --Ring Cinema (talk) 15:48, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Most newcomers have their edits/arguments rejected because they don't "get" V. When they start to get V, they then fall foul of RS, and their next hurdle is often DUE. Suggesting to compromise doesn't help them along this road of understanding at all. I'm not proposing that the diagram that I drafted should necessarily replace the existing one (in fact, it seems that there are valid arguments for having no diagram); at this stage it's primarily a vehicle for discussion and invites helpful suggestion for improvements to get it to a state where it might be useful for further dissemination. Uniplex (talk) 16:32, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I have to say, this section itself is a perfect example of typical work through consensus, and it is not represented by the current diagram on the policy page, but is represented by the proposed diagram. It is not represented in the current diagram because the current diagram starts with someone editing the article (or, in this case, the policy page). Yet no one has done that here. A proposal has been made, it was not "clear how to proceed", so it went to "seek more opinions". Now we're all in box 1 together talking about whether change is warranted. This is very typical for how edits are often done.

The other way edits are often done is also represented in the proposed program - where the box 1 deliberation is done within the mind of a sole editor, who decides it is clear how to proceed, and he goes ahead and edits. Now, some comments about what was said above:

• Kotniski, first you said, " I'm not seeing anything useful in the (latest version of the) diagram that's been proposed.", then you said, "Often discussion is started before making a change, ...". Well, what's useful in the proposed diagram is that it clearly depicts that discussion is often started without making a change", while the current diagram on the policy page does not. Do you not see that, or am I missing something?

  Then a bit later you said, "another problem I'm seeing, looking at it again, is that the "implementation" of a "compromise" is treated the same as a bold edit,", so now you are seeing not only one problem, but two? Is that with the proposed diagram, or the current diagram? Or maybe you're saying the problems you see in the current diagram are not resolved by the proposed diagram? Well, this particular problem is addressed by the proposed diagram, I think, by intentionally conflating both kinds of consensus (bold and compromise) into what he calls "provisional consensus". But is that not accurate? I mean a bold edit is often likely to be accepted by consensus, and "compromise" consensus edits often aren't. Do we really prefer compromise consensus to bold consensus? I mean, sure, when you know a particular change is against consensus, that's to be discouraged, but that's going beyond bold editing, isn't it? So, like Ring, I don't see a problem with conflating compromise and bold consensus. The "provisional consensus" notion is actually quite brilliant, if you ask me.

• Ring, you say "My point is that if the diagram is different from the policy, a mistake was made in the creation of the diagram." How is the proposed diagram different from the policy? I mean, I think everyone understands that a diagram can only be a high level overview, and that you have to look at the text to get the details of what exactly each box means, but do you see anything depicted in the proposed diagram that is incorrect or misrepresentative of policy? I don't, but I do see misrepresentation in the current diagram on the policy page (it implies everything starts with edits, which ignores situations like this very one).
• SmokeyJoe, you said, "There is little point in starting a discussion in the absence of an edit and a revert (or further edit)". I just noted above how this entire section is an example of exactly that - starting a discussion in the absence of an edit and a revert. I find this to be very familiar and typical. Do you not? --Born2cycle 16:43, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I find this familiar and typical, but not in a good way. There is an implied edit here – the removal of the figure. This conversation would likely be clearer had someone actually removed the figure. At the moment, this conversation confuses the removal of the figure entirely and the discussion of new versions. This confusion hinders progress. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:54, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

How can something be so clear and obvious to one (me) and so confusing and muddled to another (you)? Specific issues with the current diagram have been identified by multiple people. There is a proposed version which is evolving in the obvious hopes to replace the current one. Some people have suggested removing the original one and not replacing, but no one wants that enough to actually have done that, apparently. So the discussion is mostly about replacing the current diagram with the proposed diagram (or a revision of it). --Born2cycle 02:00, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

How can something be so clear and obvious to one and so confusing and muddled to another? Easy. You can have a lengthy meandering discussion that is decoupled from editing. This is my point about what is good about the current diagram, directly contrary to others’ positions. This thread “Process diagram” begins with a post suggesting removal of the diagram. If this thread is no longer advocating removal of the diagram, then how is it a reasonable discussion, especially to someone newly arriving? “Specific issues with the current diagram have been identified by multiple people”. They mixed through the discussion, and not the focus of it, and I disagree that their issues read as specific. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:59, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Most everything starts with edits. It's a distortion to imply that garden variety editing involves anything other than edits as a starting point. Then there's discussion in search of a compromise. So for a newcomer -- who doesn't contribute to policy pages anyway -- the current diagram is a useful streamlined summary. It's not complete but it doesn't pretend it is. --Ring Cinema (talk) 17:16, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, maybe it's lack of coffee, but I just cannot understand your objection. One of the most common acts I see newbies do is post on talk pages making suggestions for the article, obviously because they're not sure if it's appropriate to add or whatever. And the difference between an experienced editor and such a newbie is that the experienced editor can do a better job in box 1 in his own mind, so he can answer the first question affirmatively, and proceed with the edit. But this is also true for newbies when it comes to relatively minor changes about which they are confident. All of this is covered in the proposed diagram, and yet you say it's a "streamlined summary" and "not complete". Of course it's an overview, but that does not mean it's incomplete. What, exactly, do you think is missing? And, even if something is missing, how is the proposed diagram still not better than the current diagram which is blatantly incorrect by implying everything does start with an edit, when it never does (unless it is vandalism or poorly conceived edit, it always starts with evaluation of the text, and consideration of other factors like UNDUE, as depicted in the proposed diagram). --Born2cycle 17:25, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

To clarify my objections in a few words: my objection to the present diagram is that it's simplified to such a degree as to make it wrong about certain things; and my objection to the proposed diagram is that it looks so complicated that it's not going to help anyone understand (or want to understand) what we're trying to get across. Until someone can come up with a magic solution that is both reasonably simple-looking and reasonably accurate, I think we do best to dispense with any diagram and just use ordinary text like we do for almost everything else in our policies.--Kotniski (talk) 18:00, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

The diagram is appropriately simple. There is nothing in it that is wrong. There is no case to remove the simple diagram, it works well and faultlessly. I suggest a more detailed diagram can be added after the simple one. Please review the several in the archives. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:01, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

With respect, I think the reason you don't see anything wrong with the diagram is that you yourself are wrong (or out of sync with the community's views) about certain things. You seem to think that consensus is purely an editing process (when people stop editing, we have consensus), which is commendable up to a point (I agree that discussion is generally overrated, and constructive co-editing underrated, as a means of producing better content), but it can't be only that - discussion and explicit consensus-forming/decision-making inevitably play an important part too, and the diagram doesn't properly reflect that. In fact I don't think any diagram can, as the two processes are often concurrent and interact in too many ways for us to be able to predict.--Kotniski (talk) 08:31, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

I don’t think I am “wrong” or “out-of-sync”, I think the problem is that you want more from the diagram than it gives. I certainly don’t pretend that the diagram alone covers everything. It is necessarily a simplification of the text that it supports. I personally support including additional diagrams with more detail. We attempted that years ago, and I think the effort is worth continuing. However, the current diagram is not wrong in what it does contain. It represents a very good method for finding consensus through coupled editing and discussion. It is obviously more complicated that WhatamIdoing’s very simplest and most common case below, which occurs when there is no opposition. And it does not cover situations of entrenched oppositions, where calls for further opinion are needed, or dispute resolution, etc.

I am sure that the proposed diagram is faulty because it doesn’t tightly couple the discussion to the focus of the discussion.

I do think that consensus is best achieved through editing. Discussion provides an abstraction of what people want. Editing demonstrates what people want.

When people stop editing, we have consensus, yes, except of course unless editors have been bullied or bored out of the process.

RE: “explicit consensus-forming/decision-making”. What is this? I don’t see it in the proposed diagram. It would be great it you could formulate a recipe or diagram for doing it, and I will be impressed if you can. If you can, it would have obvious application in the guidelines on how to close an RFC.

Can you clarify for me: Do you want to remove the current diagram? Do you want to work on a more comprehensive diagram? Do you think that the current diagram is worse than no diagram? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:48, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

I would happily remove the current diagram (though I could live with it as long as it's explained that it's a simplification, and preferably in what ways it's a simplification). I don't want to work on a more comprehensive diagram, since I don't believe this is an issue that can be conveniently represented diagrammatically (though someone may prove me wrong). And yes, I believe that the current diagram is worse than no diagram (again, because it misleads people into thinking there's some simple algorithm at work here).--Kotniski (talk) 10:52, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Oh, and about “explicit consensus-forming/decision-making” - I mean the taking of decisions as a result of talk-page discussion (either through the discussion being formally closed, or through the result being clear to everyone). Of course I don't have an algorithm or a "recipe" for doing this, but it's an inevitable and important part of the process. (Personally I wouldn't say that this kind of decision-making is necessarily based on "consensus", but the word is so much part of wiki-religion that people have come to use it as jargon to describe any kind of decision that originates from editors rather than The Powers.)--Kotniski (talk) 11:01, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

The current diagram has six shapes connected by lines: so does the proposed diagram; however the proposed diagram describes about 99.9% of cases whereas the existing diagram covers a much smaller number. The notes could move to the text (if they're not already there) to yield a) a simpler looking diagram and b) text that can easily be revised. As long as WP keeps its collaborative editing model, the geometry/topology of the proposed diagram is unlikely to ever change. Certainly, we shouldn't show a diagram that's misleading, but if the diagram is clearly presented (and we're still waiting to hear what exactly is not clear) then those readers for whom a picture paints a thousand words can focus on the diagram; those who prefer text can focus on that. Uniplex (talk) 00:25, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

I think we could all agree on the very simplest and most common case, which looks something like this:

(Make a WP:BOLD edit) → (Everybody [perhaps silently] agrees) → (Voilà, consensus!)

But I'm not sure that this is useful enough to bother diagramming. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:20, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

No. That's the point of the proposed diagram. Even the simplest case that involves action only from one editor is this:

(consensus) → (Evaluate text; change needed?) → (determine change is needed) → (make the change) → (consensus)

In cases where collaboration is needed

(consensus) → (Evaluate text; change needed?) → (not sure how to proceed, seek opinions) → (determine change is needed) → (make the change) → (consensus)

The green part can loop, as shown in the proposed diagram. --Born2cycle 00:40, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

No, you're thinking about the editing process. The consensus process begins with someone's desire to change something. Until a change is wanted, then there's no point behind trying to decide whether everyone accepts the change. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:54, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

The current diagram has the virtue of being so simple that it will not be mistaken for the actual policy. It is clearly a representation of something more complicated with the details left out. Since that is clear, that will be seen as its purpose. It is true that different editors go for consensus in different ways, and we are better off letting them do that. Much as I admire the intensity of this group's respect for WP, we must humbly accept that we are self-appointed experts who likely lack the magic wand of consensus. I think it is possible to take issue with the current diagram because it smuggles discussion in under "compromise"; it's a reasonable summary. --Ring Cinema (talk) 16:10, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

RC, no one, including you, has identified how the proposed diagram is an inaccurate or misleading summary of what policy is. I say it is accurate.

We agree the current diagram is over-simplified. You say "so simple it will not be mistaken for the actual policy"; I say, "so simple it does not reflect policy at all". --born2cYcle 16:55, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

WAID, I'm definitely not thinking about the "editing process". AFAIK, the "editing process" is: "click on edit; edit; save".

I wouldn't word how the consensus process begins as "with someone's desire to change something", but I essentially agree. An editor decides an improvement could, or might, be made, with a change. If the decision is it could be made and it's clear what to do, he does it. If it's unclear it would be an improvement, or it's unclear exactly how to proceed, he consults with others. All of this is depicted in the proposed diagram.

Look, I had nothing to do with coming up with this proposed diagram. I just came along and recognized how amazingly accurate, and yet simple, it is. It's amazing in that it has as many shapes as the current diagram, and yet is comprehensive. I agree the presentation/layout could be clearer, but the flow depicted is spot on as far as I can tell. So far everyone who has objected to it cannot identify something wrong or inaccurate with it. It applies to every situation I've ever been or, or can imagine anyone being in, from the most trivial copy edit task to a months-long debate involving dozens of editors, countless proposed revisions, and multiple straw polls, etc. The linchpin of the diagram is box #1, which ingeniously represents the mental processes of individuals as well as points and reasoning shared in discussion which are key to maintaining and finding consensus. I think Uniplex deserves a barnstar for this stroke of genius. --born2cYcle 16:55, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

The proposed diagram leaves out the most common editing process. According to the proposal, an editor who is clear about how to proceed makes an edit and arrives at consensus immediately. Another editor reverts that edit and we're not on the diagram any more. So according to the proposal the two editors are in different places -- one says it's clear how to proceed and the other is probably over in box 2. This is what I meant above when I said it lacks a point of view. The current diagram is from the perspective of the person reading the diagram; they don't have to read anyone else into it to figure out how it applies to them right now. So in that way it's a summary that works for newcomers: it answers the question, "What do I do now?" --Ring Cinema (talk) 18:24, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Huh, you say they are in different places but don't identify where each is. No. That's not my interpretation at all. You're looking at it at different times. The first one is at "clear how to proceed" before he edits. After he edits they're both at provisional consensus. Then the second editor goes through loop, and reverts. The the fist editor either accepts the revert, or they both end up in #2/#1... What I see in the proposed diagram:

1. an editor who after evaluating text per box #1 is clear about how to proceed and so makes an edit and arrives at provisional consensus immediately.
2. a second editor who after evaluated text including 1st editor's change per box #1 is also clear about how to proceed and makes another edit (a revert, hopefully with a thoughtful/helpful edit summary), and also arrives at provisional consensus immediately.
3. now the first editor either accepts the revert, or goes through the process again, but this time via box #2 to bring in others, at least Editor #2, together with him into box #1 which which ingeniously represents the mental processes of individuals as well as points and reasoning shared in discussion which are key to maintaining and finding consensus.

They're both in the diagram and at the same place... right back where they started with the same text... at the top in provisional consensus. The difference is that presumably this time in box #1 the first editor will take into account the 2nd editor's input, or, if necessary, will "seek more opinions" per box #2 before proceeding.

The proposed diagram also answers "what do I do now?". The difference with the current diagram is that the proposed diagram gives a correct answer. --born2cYcle 18:50, 16 November 2011 (UTC) Revise --born2cYcle 19:00, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Your description doesn't seem to match the diagram. The first editor goes straight to consensus (blue blue blue green green). Every consensus is provisional, no? In the current diagram, he waits to see what happens to his edit ("Wait"). So the proposal seems wrong and over-specifies the policy. Secondly, the second editor is in another part of the diagram (2, I think) saying things like, "Hey I have a different opinion." But the proposal says that the consensus is already done. Of course, I know what you mean and how you want me to read it because I know the practices of WP. But that's not the point, right? Tendentious or creative misreadings will happen if they are allowed. --Ring Cinema (talk) 20:36, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

How long should he "Wait"—a week, a month, a year? In reality, he need not wait at all; he can do anything he likes. "the proposal says that the consensus is already done": no, the proposal says that consensus is provisional. Uniplex (talk) 21:15, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Also, the box "Is it clear how to proceed?" seems superfluous. I see an identity between knowing how to proceed and agreeing to a change, unless there will be no change, in which case the diagram seems to strand us in the middle forever. --Ring Cinema (talk) 20:39, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

I am baffled by what you're apparently seeing and saying. I with you up to where you ask if every consensus is provisional. Yes. Then you say that in the current diagram it shows the editor waiting after making his edit (true, that's what it depicts), and that that somehow makes the proposal diagram wrong and an over-specification of policy. I don't see how that second part follows the first part at all. The wait in the proposed diagram is implied, and, accurately, is not necessary. The editor, can, for example, decide to make another edit, or even revert himself. He will not necessarily wait, which the current diagram incorrectly states he will do.

Then you say the second editor is in another part of the diagram ("2, I think"). It's unclear if you're talking about the second editor before or after he reverts, but in either case, he never takes the black path through #2. He also goes blue-blue-blue-green-[edit (revert)]-green.

The proposal never says "the consensus is done" - it says consensus is always provisional (another brilliant aspect of it).

I don't see how the diagram strands us in the middle. To use our own situation as an example, you and I are circling from #1, through the diamond you say is superflous, answering no each time, and reentering #1 via #2 (at the moment only you and I are actively participating, but we're certainly seeking input from others too). Are we stranded here? Perhaps, but that's reality. Until we get to a point where one of us feels it's clear to proceed, there we will stay. Eventually, we will either agree on how to proceed with a change (from #1, blue-blue-green-green), or we will realize we can't agree on a change or will agree no change is needed (blue-blue-red). In either case we will finally answer "yes" to what you say is a superflous question, and then either yes or no at the diamond in the middle.

If you're now trying to say the diagram could be misinterpreted - and giving example of how it could be - okay, we can work with that, by trying to make it more clear. Would you agree to at least try to work towards making this diagram convey more clearly what we want it to say? Because that's very different from an effort to try to show it's unworkable. --born2cYcle 21:17, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps I could ask you to re-read my last post with an eye to the fact that I sometimes refer to the proposal and sometimes to the current diagram. Sorry if I do that in a confusing way. That said, I think my objection stands up just fine. If an editor starts at 1 (why is that on the side?) and follows blue-blue-blue-green-green, he can think of an edit change, decide it should be done, do it, and have a new consensus all on his own without coming across any other editors. At that point, according to the diagram, his work is the new consensus. That is what the diagram says. I am not making that up. And that does not seem to be the actual process. Since it is not the way the practice goes here, I think that constitutes a divergence of the diagram from the practice, and that divergence is what I object to. (I'm not sufficiently interested in this to repeat myself on the other objections, although I think they're definite problems.) --Ring Cinema (talk) 01:19, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

I've gone back and reread your last two posts with particular care to whether you're referring to the proposed or current diagram - my same observations and questions stand as posted. I was not confused about which diagram you referred to when. I am confused by statements like this:

In the current diagram, he waits to see what happens to his edit ("Wait"). So the proposal seems wrong and over-specifies the policy.

How does the fact that the current diagram shows a wait after the edit support the conclusion that the proposal diagram is wrong and over-specifies the policy? Does the policy specify a wait? No (I even searched for the word "wait" in the text at WP:CONSENSUS... not there). It's the current diagram that over-specifies the policy by indicating that wait.

Now in this latest post you write:

If an editor starts at 1 (why is that on the side?) and follows blue-blue-blue-green-green, he can think of an edit change, decide it should be done, do it, and have a new consensus all on his own without coming across any other editors. At that point, according to the diagram, his work is the new consensus. That is what the diagram says. I am not making that up. And that does not seem to be the actual process. Since it is not the way the practice goes here, ...

Above you were told by both me and Uniplex that the numbers in the boxes are just labels. You always start at the top, at "Provisional consensus". Starting at the top the editor can follow blue-blue-blue-green-green. But from box #1, it's just blue-blue-green-green (the first blue got him to box #1 from provisional consensus). But that nit aside, yes, tracing that path is the normal path for a unilateral edit (if you will), and the end result is a provisional consensus for that updated text, which remains until that text is changed again, which could be a few seconds later, or not for years. You're not making that up. That is what the diagram depicts, and that is the actual process. Of course. What about this seems like it's not the actual process to you? --born2cYcle 05:51, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

In general, more than one editor is involved in consensus-making. It seems more accurate and less likely to cause problems if it's recognized that consensus depends on some kind of acceptance, especially since it's implied that consensus is always provisional. There is a difference between a change that's worked over thoroughly and one that's just put up, even though both are revisable. --Ring Cinema (talk) 10:18, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Of course there is a difference. But every change ever made, whether it lasted forever (so far), or just a few minutes, was 5 seconds old 5 seconds after the editor who made it clicked save. And if it was never changed again then the consensus support it had at 5 seconds was no different than the consensus support it had at 3 years. Time does not determine consensus for a change, but it helps confirm whether there is consensus, but even then it's always provisional. There is no bright line, and I fail to see how waiting is a factor in the consensus process we're trying to depict in the diagram. If you find something in an article that is problematic, it doesn't matter whether it was there 5 minutes or 5 years - you will, presumably, challenge it just the same.

Anyway, the current diagram implies that there is some unspecified "wait" period after an edit is made that determines whether there is consensus. But this is plainly wrong. First, even if the edit is reverted during the unspecified waiting period, that doesn't mean there was no consensus (in the extreme, it might have been a vandal that reverted, more realistically, it might be the one person who is against consensus that reverted). Second, even if the edit is not reverted, or not changed further, during the unspecified waiting period, that does not mean there is consensus. It could mean no one noticed. WP is riddled with unnoticed edits made by vandals that fall into this category. --born2cYcle 18:25, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

I think that waiting to see how others react to an edit is part of what good editors do. It's certainly a better description of the process than the proposal diagram, which allows the erroneous interpretation that a new edit is consensus upon its adoption by a single editor. And your counterexamples seem to require bad faith edits to undermine the utility of the current diagram. This page is about consensus. I have other problems with the proposal as well, primarily based on its over-specifications. For example, the box labelled 1 seems to limit the valid reasons for an edit and I know from experience that if good edits have to be for specified reasons according to policy, then edits made for other reasons will be reverted for illicit reasoning. Sometimes that is good and sometimes it is bad, but this is not the place to take that up. --Ring Cinema (talk) 19:12, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

"than the proposal diagram, which allows the erroneous interpretation that a new edit is consensus upon its adoption by a single editor". No. The proposed diagram correctly presents that a new edit is provisional consensus regardless of whether it has been adopted by just one, or dozens, of editors, and that it achieves and retains this status as long as it is not changed again, or challenged, which could be five seconds, or five years or more.

You say that good editors wait, and that waiting is part of what they do. Wait for what? Wait before they do what?

Some editors edit and move on, and don't even know if their change is reverted or challenged. Others may watch the page to see what happens, but in the mean time they do others things too. I don't get the "wait" thing at all. To wait means to delay some other action. What are they delaying? I don't see how "wait" accurately describes what editors, including good editors, actually do, at all. Can you explain? --born2cYcle 19:58, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

This is a sort of passing comment: If Ring is confused by the diagram, then it's likely to leave other people confused, too.

Also, the diagram gives a seriously misleading definition of "bold". Cleaning up someone else's typos is still bold editing, even though it's perfectly clear that typo correction constitutes an improvement. I really cannot support its current form. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:34, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

The word 'bold' means 'courageous and daring'—experienced editors especially would not consider fixing typos to be bold. That said, my recommendation above was to minimize the text in the diagram per se and provide necessary notes as editable text. Arguably, mentioning bold editing is not necessary; it all depends how much you want to cover in the diagram and its notes. Uniplex (talk) 12:35, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

That's only in the real world. BOLD is wikijargon and has a substantially different meaning on-wiki, just like "Notable" means "qualifies for its own stand-alone article, as proven by the fact that multiple reliable sources have already taken notice of it" on-wiki, rather than what the dictionary says, which is closer to "worthy of someone taking notice of it (whether or not anyone actually has)". WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:12, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your response WAID; will have to return to this subject to this later—too many irons in the fire at the moment! Uniplex (talk) 09:26, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Both good points. I think we're passed misunderstandings with RC and are actually at a disagreement about how consensus works. In particular, whether "waiting" is a fundamental aspect of it. Do you have a view on that question (please review the last few comments above)? Also, once we get that ironed out, I'd like to work on tweaking the diagram to make it easier to understand. And of course make wording changes to address problems like the one you just noted about bold editing. Any suggestions on what wording to use instead there? --born2cYcle 06:00, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

I think some find the two chained yes/no questions hard to follow as they consider these to occur (in some cases at least) simultaneously. So maybe these should be collapsed into a single question: "Conclusion?", with three possible answers "Unclear", "No change warranted", "Change decided upon" or some such. Uniplex (talk) 12:50, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

I am not confused about what tie diagram says. For the record, I have no problem locating some parts of WP page editing in the proposed diagram. However, tendentious readings will be made under pressure and in that context detailed definitions become destructive and distracting. Wikipedia's strength is in its editors not its policies. --Ring Cinema (talk) 15:21, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Good Lord, I've lost track of how many different different objections for the proposed diagram you've raised and, apparently, abandoned. If this is just a game of Whac-A-Mole for you because you're just against the diagram for some unstated reason, and so the stated reasons are not really important to you, we cannot have a productive discussion about this. --born2cYcle 21:44, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

My objections are perfectly coherent; none of them are abandoned; all of them still stand. However, long posts are not read here. Careful consideration yields good decisions. I suspect the proposed diagram would not be a good idea and I am happy to share my objections in a eupeptic form. There is no problem before us and stable policies are a lot more important than adding a dubious diagram to a policy already functioning well. --Ring Cinema (talk) 13:56, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

"There is no problem before us"...!!! Have you attended any RfCs lately? They're mostly freakin' disasters, inordinately inefficient, and the just the tip of the iceberg of the petty squabbles going on underneath. "a policy already functioning well"... Why do you think we've arrived here at this policy page? Because we've observed it functioning so abysmally. Also for consideration, why do you think, as has been reported, that "good editors are leaving WP in droves"? Jimbo himself complains that the project looks backwards instead of looking forwards. I'm astounded by how far removed from reality your statements appear to be. Uniplex (talk) 07:52, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I get that you're generally opposed to incorporating the proposed diagram, but your specific objections are a mystery, at least to me, and I've been trying to pay very close attention. Note that I at least recognized you were not confused about what the proposed diagram says. If you're just going to repeat vague general objections without engaging in a genuine effort to explain what your specific objections are so that they can be addressed, or so that others realize that they cannot be addressed, you're just being disruptive. You had two somewhat specific objections to the latest revision below. I addressed one, and Uniplex addressed the other. If those objections "still stand", please explain, in detail, how and why they were not adequately addressed by us. Anything else? --born2cYcle 16:50, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Break 2 (process diagram)

Consensus is the broad, community agreement that we strive for in making decisions on Wikipedia.

[Assessing ‘true’ consensus (observing that the entire community gives simultaneous agreement) is neither practical nor particularly useful since, because the community, its views, and the world at large on which those views are based, are in a constant state of flux, any determination of consensus is potentially out-of-date the moment after it has been made.]

Consensus in Wikipedia is deemed to be provisional, that is, it may be considered to represent ‘true’ consensus, providing that it is not subsequently challenged and replaced with a new, provisional consensus.

The decision-making process in practice is depicted in the diagram and starts from A, the current state of a page. As above, consensus is provisional.

Changes (adding, removing, or modifying content) are most often the result of a single editor judging that change is needed and editing the page. This is shown by the path A→B→C→D→A.

To determine if and what change is warranted, an evaluation (B) per sources and Wikipedia's policies and guidelines is made; this, even if by a single editor, best ensures that the result should constitute community consensus.

At D, all that is needed beyond editing the page (citing sources as appropriate), is to give an appropriate edit summary, including the reason for the change (e.g. "... per given source", or "... per guideline X").

Others who view the page may decide to change it further (ABCDA again) or give silent agreement (ABCA).

If it is unclear whether to make (or perhaps revert) a change, the issue is opened for discussion (E) at an article-, policy-, or other talk-page as appropriate, and evaluation (now a collaboration by a group of editors) resumes at B.

Pared down diagram with editable notes. Seeing as the proposed diagram takes a generalized view, and the existing diagram details a smaller set of specific circumstances, if they are clearly designated as such, there's no reason why we can't have both. Uniplex (talk) 16:40, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

• Support including Uniplex' diagram in the article. --born2cYcle 21:39, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

It has the same problem as the previous proposal: a single editor goes all the way to consensus without any other editorial input? Plus, is there really an identity between consensus and provisional consensus? If so, why "provisional"? Seems to me experienced editors are aware that a consensus goes through stages of acceptance. And if not, it's an extra word. I'm not sure what problem is being solved by adding a diagram that can't be edited. --Ring Cinema (talk) 23:07, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, a single editor goes all the way to consensus without any other editorial input, just like in the current diagram...

• [previous consensus] → [make an edit] → <was the article edited further?> (no) → [new consensus]

And, yes, there is a distinction between consensus and provisional consensus. There really is no such thing as consensus in Wikipedia - it's really always provisional, and the proposed diagram emphasizes this, which is good. --born2cYcle 01:32, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Ring, that consensus can be considered to be "provisional" is explained in the first note: "since pages are always subject to further change". The ABCA cycle occurs every time someone reads a page or a diff and lets it stand as is. Prior to such, the consensus for the page is provisional (subject to change), and after such, it is still provisional (subject to change)—this is the very nature of Wikipedia. You appear to have an objection to diagrams "that can't be edited"; one can only wonder as to what relevance this might have as: AFAIK, it applies equally to all diagrams in WP; if it doesn't, a helpful response would be to suggest a more suitable format to use—either way, the diagram is so simple that modification through recreation is an easy option. Uniplex (talk) 11:02, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

On the "wait" issue - it seems like there is an unstated general agreement that the period between an edit and any other edit to that page is significant to the consensus process. That is, if you make an edit it's especially provisional until someone else makes an edit; that if someone else makes an edit, without reverting your change, that somehow counts as overt acceptance of your change.... now there are two people who apparently support the change, which makes reverting it a bigger deal. Maybe this is what RC is trying to get at, and sees reflected somewhat in the current diagram but not in the proposed diagram? --born2cYcle 16:38, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

The infinite loop running through BCE seems altogether too accurate a description of seriously dysfunctional disputes to be something that we want to recommend as a best practice. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:16, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

But it doesn't suggest an infinite loop, since one way or another, some kind of conclusion is eventually reached, especially as "seek more opinions" escalates as per the dispute resolution process. Like it or not, this is the recommended and tried-and-true practice. --born2cYcle 23:16, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

That's basically wishful thinking. Seeking more opinions on a content dispute does not always result in reaching a conclusion about what to do with the article. In fact, #1 under ==Pitfalls== is "too many cooks", i.e., you have sought more opinions and it has made the dispute worse, not better. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:15, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

♣ The role of the diagram is not to encourage any particular path; that's a job for the text. The diagram merely reflects certain aspects of the text, specifically, the most common paths taken in the consensus process. Perhaps the title of the diagram could make its role clearer in this respect. Perhaps note E could express caution at progressing up the chain; perhaps all the notes could be worked into the main text (or are already there). The specific benefit that the diagram brings, is that in reference to it, the current text can be made shorter and still convey the same meaning. This is true for two reasons, paths may be referred to in the text very succinctly (e.g. ABCA) and some of the paths that are currently treated as being different in the current text, are in fact the same path, or the same path with only a modicum of textual qualification. Consider the diagram as a road map: a road map doesn't tell you the best route, but it is used in conjunction with a route-finder app that does. Uniplex (talk) 11:50, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't accept the "up is down" logic that provisional consensus is distinct from consensus because all consensus is provisional (see B2Cycle above). 2) I don't accept the "two are one" logic that Uniplex uses to imply that consensus is the same kind of provisional both before and after subsequent edits. The true statement that all WP articles can be changed does not imply that consensus is constant after a new edit. Rather, there are several criteria one can reasonably employ to assess the "stickiness" of an edit, i.e. time, discussion, subsequent edits. --Ring Cinema (talk) 05:34, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

It has been neither implied nor stated that "consensus is constant after a new edit". Neither has it been implied nor stated that the diagram offers a means to assess the "stickiness" of an edit. It has been stated (many times now) that consensus is provisional after any edit: i.e. that the edit represents consensus providing that is it not subsequently challenged. This is the reality we find ourselves in at WP; one can never know if a challenge will subsequently occur. For example, this edit, was eventually reverted as practical-joke/mistaken after being present in the article in one form or another for 19 months. Did that edit represent the consensus view during that time? No, it just hadn't been properly assessed. Did that edit have provisional consensus during that time? Yes, it was taken at face value, copy-edited, and worked in with other text, but it was always subject to the eventual assessment that would see it reverted. Does it have "constant" consensus now? No, the current text (without the edit) could be challenged again today. Will WP articles ever have "constant" consensus? Unlikely, but that's not the point, such things are best discussed in the text: the diagram's role is to inform you or to remind you of most of what you need to know, for most of the time. Uniplex (talk) 07:47, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Okay, let's try an example and see whether it helps. Here is an actual, good-faith change made yesterday by an editor. This person presumably:

A. Read the article (which had "provisional consensus" according to this diagram).

B. Considered a possible change.

C. Concluded that a change was needed.

D. Made the change.

and—according to this diagram—this change, which replaces a direct quotation from a reputable source that is firmly against this thoroughly discredited alternative cancer treatment with a made-up recommendation to use it—instantly acquired the status of "provisional consensus", even though we could trivially predict that nobody was going to agree with this person's change, and in fact it was reverted six and a quarter minutes later.

Now are you really prepared to declare that person's edit to be just as valid and just as consensus-driven as any other change made to the page? Did that change actually have any level of support that could be described as "provisional consensus" with a straight face? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:23, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I say again:

It seems like there is an unstated general agreement that the period between an edit and any other edit to that page is significant to the consensus process. That is, if you make an edit it's especially provisional until someone else makes an edit; that if someone else makes an edit, without reverting your change, that somehow counts as overt acceptance of your change.... now there are two people who apparently support the change, which makes reverting it a bigger deal.

How to address this in the diagram? What if we added:

[E. Wait for another edit to the page] → <is change reverted> → (yes) → [F. change has provisional consensus]/ (no) → [F' change is not consensus] → [A. provisional consensus]

In words, once the change is made whether it has provisional consensus is determined by the next edit to the page. If it's reverted it obviously does not; if it's not reverted, then it apparently does. Either way, you're back to Box A. --born2cYcle 20:06, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

• WAID, I can't declare that an edit is not valid until I've reviewed it, and nor can anyone else. Furthermore, there is no formal review process, no guarantee of when or if an edit will be reviewed. In the mean time, the edit has provisional consensus and readers may be viewing it. This is the very nature of WP's editing model: we trust our editors, but no more than to declare their editorial decisions as provisional. The probability of an edit having full, community consensus may go up depending on the breadth of the discussion that approved it, and the length of time it remains unchanged—we never formally measure this probabilty though, because our process doesn't require us to. (Note to self: probability of community consensus may also go down with time, as information may go out-of-date and the likelihood of a challenge goes up.) In these terms, it all sounds a bit crazy—how could it possibly produce a useful encyclopedia? But it does. Uniplex (talk) 21:16, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Jumping back: Uniplex, we agree that consensus is mutable by nature. However, I think we part company in our willingness to leave the impression that consensus becomes sticky. The diagram that you defend says that all consensus is the same kind of provisional, and I don't think a project page on consensus should give that impression. Consensus is different before and after other editors have been on the scene. Yes, there is a sense in which both are provisional, but it is so equivocal as to be misleading to use the same expression for a fresh edit done this morning and a compromise solution arrived at after two weeks of discussion. I find it a misrepresentation of consensus rather than a useful simplification. This seems to be the position you are defending, although you might point to something in the diagram that makes this distinction clear. Thank you. --Ring Cinema (talk) 15:18, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I suspect that both you and WAID are misinterpreting the purpose of the diagram, which is to supplement the text. The diagram shows the general case; how "sticky" consensus is depends on specific circumstances; the diagram makes no comment on it. The reply ♣ I made to WAID above may help. Also, what "bad thing" are you afraid of happening if we use the diagram? The rules are not being changed. Bad edits will still be reverted. Edit warring will still be disallowed. Uniplex (talk) 15:53, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

While it may in your mind be a supplement, it will be read tendentiously. Again, there seems to be an easy case/hard case problem. If I was going to design a diagram to supplement, I might think about box labels that match the article's section headings. Or a box for each process with arrows for segues. Discussion seems to get short shrift in this proposal even though it is the place where things get worked out. --Ring Cinema (talk) 16:29, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Couldn't writing "See text for details" next to the diagram perform a mind transfer to the readers? Discussion of discussion is where we are trying to get to, if only we could get the basic ground rules in place first. Uniplex (talk) 16:49, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Should we be able to? Sure, if every single editor were a cooperative, mature person who wanted nothing more than the ideal contents for the project. In practice, it doesn't work that way. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:54, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Sorry WAID, you've lost me there. Let's roll back: RC complains that the fact that the diagram supplements the text is in my mind and not in the readers' minds, is a problem. I suggest that we can transfer it from my mind, to a note—"See text for details"—and from there to the readers minds. RC also expressed an interest in the discussion area of the process; I suggested that we ought to try to do one thing at a time. What are you suggesting? Uniplex (talk) 19:07, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

In translation: "Rejoice! You are neither cynical nor a born bureaucrat!"

It does not matter how many disclaimers you add. If you put up a diagram that is wrong, or at least one that could be seriously wrong in some messy dispute, someone is going to pound on the table and demand that the diagram is the one True™ way. You can no more stop them from doing this than you can stop them from taking half-sentences out of context. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:59, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

This comment is in reference to Uniplex's statement, "I can't declare that an edit is not valid until I've reviewed it":

I understand what you're saying, but the fact is that a change like this does not have consensus from the very instant that the change is thought about, even if nobody ever sees it. It is not possible to have consensus for a change that seriously and unquestionably violates major content policies.

"Consensus" is not "the agreement of the couple people who happen to notice the change". Consensus is based on the whole community's views. It is not possible for a POV pusher or a spammer to override the major policies even if nobody ever sees their bad changes. That's what we mean at WP:LOCALCONSENSUS when we say "Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale."

This edit was a serious violation of consensus from the very beginning. Any individual might not be able to act on that violation (by reverting it) until he has seen it, but there is zero consensus for the change even before any specific human realizes that we have a problem, because there is a strong, unshakable, community-wide consensus not to dramatically misquote sources. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:02, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

WAID, I don't disagree with you, but I'm not sure what bearing this has on the diagram. Perhaps I can ask you the same question that RC steadfastly refuses to answer: What "bad thing" are you afraid of happening if we use the diagram? (Since no rules are being changed: bad edits will still be reverted; edit warring will still be disallowed, etc. etc.) If someone would answer the question then we might be able to do something about it. Uniplex (talk) 19:14, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

No, your accusation is inaccurate, Uniplex. I have repeatedly raised the ways in which the proposed diagrams can be read that are antithetical to current practice or good practice. Now, perhaps you want me to then say, "And the editors will then be allowed to insert falsehoods into the articles." However, a clear causal link from a bad diagram to a poor WP article might never be made. But that is not the point, right? I think that I have less faith in our ability to make a rule and know how it will be followed. (You are incorrect that adding the proposed diagram changes no rule; you are talking about your intention.) That is why I like to mention that the best path to WP excellence comes from experienced editors working within a stable set of practices that are widely understood. Changes to this page are not stable. Changes to this page that can be read in bad ways are not stable. So, what bad thing have I steadfastly refused to mention? I have been quite clear: the proposed diagram could make the work of good editors difficult and I've said it implicitly or explicitly in every post. --Ring Cinema (talk) 21:01, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I assure you, Ring Cinema, you have been anything but clear. I cannot think of any discussion in which I have ever been involved on Wikipedia in which someone's comments were less clear or more nebulous than yours have been. After spending hours over a number of days reading and thinking about everything you've written, I have only the slightest and most general of inklings of what you're trying to say. By the way, saying you've been clear and that you've said "it" does not make it true.

If you really wanted to be clear, then you would do this:

1. State your objections as clearly as you can in a draft post,
2. Review everything in that draft that you've already said above and how others have responded to it, and
3. incorporate clarifications in your statement that addresses what others have said.

If you do that, then you can say you've been clear. --Born2cycle (talk) 01:19, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Uniplex, what matters is that your diagram says that this zero-consensus-from-its-conception edit has "provisional consensus". It doesn't have provisional consensus. It has no consensus whatsoever. It is exactly the kind of edit that is prohibited by all of the content policies. But you have incorrectly and misleadingly labeled that zero-consensus edit as having some kind of consensus, solely on the grounds that it happens.

The first "bad thing" that's going to happen is that some people will be honestly confused (especially people who don't read the text, and that's a lot of them) and thus believe that this zero-consensus edit has some sort of consensus. The second "bad thing" that's going to happen is that wikilawyers and POV pushers will find it very convenient for insisting that their anti-consensus changes have some sort of consensus. Neither of these are beneficial to the overall project. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:39, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

WAID, firstly, referring to the diagram as "your diagram" belies and attacks the fact that it is the result of a collaboration: it has thus far, been updated to incorporate the comments of (off the top of my head) five other editors. Secondly, your comments belie the fact that virtually every WP policy, guideline, and paragraph therein, cannot be read in isolation. Thirdly, the diagram does not imply that deliberately bad changes have any sort of consensus: a deliberately bad change omits B: Evaluate existing text as needed per sources, policy, and guidelines, to determine if change is warranted. Uniplex (talk) 07:42, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

The third point here is particularly important. I'm curious to know if that satisfies WAID, and, if not, why not? --Born2cycle (talk) 08:56, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

The third point is entirely irrelevant. The diff I give as an example was impossibly bad, but it was actually made in good faith. The edit summary plainly indicates that the newbie thought his change was going to be helpful to readers. The newbie did "evaluable the existing text to determine if change is warranted": He thought the existing text violated NPOV (by emphasizing the mainstream story), and he adjusted the text to line up with sources that support his POV.

This was a good-faith, zero-consensus, obviously policy-violating change. At no point in time did anything about this change have any form of consensus, "provisional" or otherwise, behind it.

And there is still no path on this diagram that allows this misguided newbie to make a change without that change being declared "consensus". According to this erroneous diagram, every single (good-faith) edit results in consensus. This is simply wrong. "Make an edit" must be able to lead to something other than "consensus". "Make an edit" must have the option of leading to "discover that the edit you honestly thought was supported by sources, policies, and guidelines definitely wasn't, and thus got reverted". WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:59, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps you'd like let us know what it is that a good faith edit, evaluated according to V, NPOV, etc. does have (if not provisional consensus). Also, please let us know, what the bad faith edit that I mentioned above which persisted for 19 months had (if not provisional consensus) during that time. Uniplex (talk) 22:30, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

All irremediably inappropriate edits, whether made in perfectly good faith or in particularly bad faith, have the same status: no consensus for the change. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:22, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Fool I, for asking two questions, the first of which you did not answer. Ultimately, the purpose of the policy and the diagram is to describe best practice. The terms that we "hang" on that description are just that: terms, meaning whatever we define them to them to mean. The proposed diagram (and associated text) promotes best practice to achieve community consensus in important ways that the current one does not. It promotes collaboration, and evaluation according to policy & sources, and it discourages (through deemphasis) disagreement, compromise, and persuasion—all things that result from opinion, something that is expressly forbidden. The proposed diagram is derived from the current diagram as follows:

• The existing policy clearly states that decision is primarily by evaluation, not compromise: so replace compromise (before the second edit) with evaluation.
• Evaluate before the second edit but not the first? Clearly not best practice, so place evaluation also before the first edit.
• Wait. Who should wait? And for how long? Is there some obligation here? No, there is no Wikipedia principle that obliges anybody to wait for approval for an edit: either before or after. Review is possible but in no way mandated.
• So, the first and the second edits are in fact governed by exactly the same rules: we have an iterative process, but one that though it makes a steadfast approach towards and to track community consensus, can never be known to have met it.
• Assuming good faith (which we are obliged to do), "provisional consensus" is a reasonable term to express the state between our best effort steps. It reflects the fact that if editors follow the principles embodied in the modified diagram, then the trust that this term bestows in them is deserved. It's a two-edged sword though: contrary to what you suggest, the term "provisional consensus" makes it easier to overturn claims of consensus for POV, since by definition, that "consensus" was only provisional.
• The escalation path in the proposed diagram (BCE) is relatively insignificant: with the above in place, it's need would be dramatically reduced.

We could proceed without the term "provisional consensus", for example, by replacing it on the diagram with "Start" (and the process paths "go back to the start"); though this would likely give a slower move towards our ultimate goal of maximising the number of edits that move the project directly towards community consensus. Uniplex (talk) 12:22, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

RC, though you still haven't answered the question in a way that could allow the diagram to improved, we now understand your objection: the diagram represents a change, and change, in your opinion, is bad. Here are some comments from Jimbo for you to ponder: "This enshrines old bad practices and privileges the past over the future ... That radically conservative attitude conflicts with WP:BOLD and WP:IAR". Uniplex (talk) 07:42, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Is that what he's trying to say? It's change and change is bad? Really? Wow. In any case, the proposed diagram seems like a change to how the policy is presented, but not a change to the policy. --Born2cycle (talk) 08:56, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

This is particularly alarming: "the best path to WP excellence comes from experienced editors working within a stable set of practices that are widely understood". Okay, so I'm not Jimbo, but I'm certain he'd say something more akin to: "WP excellence will come from simple, efficient practices that are easily understood by new editors". His comments just above (BOLD, IAR) are in reference to policy improvement. Uniplex (talk) 12:38, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Okay, so there we have it. You mistakenly believe that new editors, many of whom don't know what they're doing, will somehow make improvements, when it is pretty obvious that the backbone of WP is the experienced editors who do the bulk of the work. To undermine the experienced editors by destabilizing important policy is a destructive idea. So, yeah, wow, I have an idea about how to maintain a well-functioning institution. You don't.

Speaking of things that haven't been articulated, there is a gaping hole where the reason to change the policy should be. Uniplex? B2C? Any ideas about what you're trying to fix? --Ring Cinema (talk) 15:35, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

I suppose I should mention, for the record, that B2C and Uniplex have misstated my objections rather crudely. I don't have one objection, and they land on different levels of detail. It is not hard to understand (e.g.) that the proposed diagram can be read as different from current practice -- even if the advocates claim they don't intend that -- but that reading is very simple. Since we don't need this diagram, we should do with it what we do with all the proposed edits we don't need. --Ring Cinema (talk) 15:41, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Ring, I'm sure that you're already aware that Delete – No need is an WP:IDONTLIKEIT argument, one to be avoided. As for the reasons for looking for improvement, several have already been given; you did not respond. Here are some again:

"There is no problem before us"...!!! Have you attended any RfCs lately? They're mostly freakin' disasters, inordinately inefficient, and the just the tip of the iceberg of the petty squabbles going on underneath. "a policy already functioning well"... Why do you think we've arrived here at this policy page? Because we've observed it functioning so abysmally. Also for consideration, why do you think, as has been reported, that "good editors are leaving WP in droves"? Jimbo himself complains that the project looks backwards instead of looking forwards. I'm astounded by how far removed from reality your statements appear to be. Uniplex (talk) 07:52, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

What do you think happens to experienced editors? They leave. What will new editors become (if they don't run off screaming)? Experienced editors. Why do you ignore Jimbo's views? Do you even know who he is...? Uniplex (talk) 17:12, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

I see the genetic fallacy in that reference to Jimbo, Uniplex. I'm sure Jimbo can speak for himself. I also don't know what you mean when you say that experienced editors leave, since the definition of an experienced editor is one who stays. I would take issue with the idea that the proposed diagram would make RfC's more efficient or that the policy on consensus is the cause of any problem. Depending on consensus is intrinsically difficult so it's unsurprising that there are sometimes problems; it is removed from reality to believe that there are rules for consensus that would obviate those problems. Even less do I accept that a flawed diagram that misstates the practice of page editing could improve the editing of pages. But I am open to good ideas about how to incrementally improve WP practices. You may recall that I mentioned the majority of the minority as a group that might be undervalued in our thinking. --Ring Cinema (talk) 15:48, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Ring, I guarantee that, one way or another, every experienced editor will leave WP; think about it. Sorry, but "the flawed diagram" is IDONTLIKEIT—there is nothing that can be done for such claims. The diagram does not embody any change to WP practice; it merely reflects (a substantial portion of) the current text. Uniplex (talk) 20:14, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

If that is really your argument, Uniplex, it falls spectacularly flat on its face. I feel quite certain that we do not have a problem with mortality attrition among WP editors, and if, as you claim, the proposed diagram was put forward to solve the problem of editors lost to death, you painted yourself into a corner. This makes it clear that the diagram isn't proposed for a useful stated purpose. As for your assertion that the diagram would not change WP practice, this is pure speculation on your part and, based on my experience, certainly false. --Ring Cinema (talk) 15:47, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Break 3 (process diagram)

Consensus is the broad, community agreement that we strive for in making decisions on Wikipedia. True consensus (simultaneous agreement of the entire community) is never determined; instead, one or more editors make their best effort to estimate it and the result is deemed provisional, meaning that it may act in place of true consensus, providing that it is not subsequently challenged and replaced with a new, provisional consensus.

How this works in practice is depicted in the diagram and starts from A, the current state of a page. Changes (adding, removing, or modifying content) are most often made by single editor, judging that change is needed, and editing the page; this is shown by the path A→B→C→D→A.

To determine if and what change is warranted, an evaluation (B) per sources and Wikipedia's policies and guidelines is made; this, even if by a single editor, best ensures that the result should constitute community consensus.

At D, all that is needed beyond editing the page (citing sources as appropriate), is to give an appropriate edit summary, including the reason for the change (e.g. "... per given source", or "... per guideline X").

Others who view the page may decide to change it further (ABCDA again) or give silent agreement (ABCA).

If it is unclear whether to make (or perhaps revert) a change, the issue is opened for discussion (E) at an article-, policy-, or other talk-page as appropriate, and evaluation (now a collaboration by a group of editors) resumes at B.

Though it may be revisited as necessary during the evaluation, the most important thing to first establish is the set of criteria by which the potential change will be judged.

This involves identifying which policies and guidelines apply particularly to the matter in hand, and determining which types of reliable source will be used to provide the evidence for the criteria to be assessed.

If multiple source types are considered pertinent, "weighting" them in some way is sometimes appropriate. For example, depending on the subject matter, mainstream press may be considered more or less authoritative than books on the subject. WP:RS and WP:NPOV discuss this in detail.

Once the criteria have been established, it should be a relatively straight-forward task to consult sources to gather the evidence required to make the decision. If the decision seems difficult then options include: gathering more evidence, reestablishing the criteria, or it may become apparent that the the discussion would be better moved to a more appropriate forum (e.g. from article-talk to guideline-talk).

Note that to maintain clarity in a group evaluation (whose members may "dip in and out" as their time allows), it can help on the talk page to keep established information (such as the criteria and the gathered evidence) separate from the journal of related discussion.

Let's remind ourselves of how this discussion started: problems with the current diagram. Despite its best intentions, the current diagram supports the following conclusions:

• any edit (including bad ones) has consensus if no other edit occurs on the same page (after 24hrs, say)
• any edit has consensus if other edits subsequently occur on the same page
• NPOV editors have to compromise with POV editors (so that a partial amount of POV material receives consensus)
• POV edit 1 modified by POV edit 2 makes for a strong, "sticky" consensus

These are serious problems for something that plays such a central role in WP's operation. It's no wonder that when day-to-day editing includes elements of the above, we end up with train-wreck RfCs. With this in the mix, editors just aren't sufficiently cognizant of WP's principles or best practice. If day-to-day editing didn't suffer from the above, most problems would be solved early on and few would even get to RfC.

The proposed diagram attempts specifically to address the problems in the current diagram, and thus be a good, base reference for what consensus is. It doesn't preclude having other diagrams which "unroll" particular paths worthy of specific comment. Problems with the proposed diagram raised and not addressed thus far:

• possibly open to misinterpretation

The writer's challenge is to present ideas clearly and concisely—are we not up to that challenge? If not, why are we even here? If we use the diagram and a problem occurs, we'll fix it. If we can't fix it, we'll revert and think again, based on the valuable knowledge that we gained in trying—to make WP better. Uniplex (talk) 09:00, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Do you have any evidence that your conclusions reflect reality? I think your conclusions are not realistic, certainly not under the scutiny that any bold edit attracts, and when push comes to shove, editors refer to the text, not to a simple diagram. However, I would like to encourage you make a more complete diagram, covering more of the details. This should be in addition to the simple diagram, which should come first. Experience is that "detailed and correct" inevitably is so complicated that it is not helpful as an introduction. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:13, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughts Joe. I suspect that all of the "conclusions" I gave, do occur in WP to a certain extent (and I think WAID alluded to some of them, somewhere above); whether or not they occur because of the diagram, is hard to say—the existing diagram could be used to bolster such claims though. The proposed diagram covers a large number of scenarios and doesn't seem to have the same problems. In fact, just about everything that has been thrown at it so far, it has coped with. It doesn't include a "give up" option: I've hesitated to do so since a) it's fairly obvious that any process can be abandoned at any point, and b) it's a bit defeatist! (We have, of course, a text section on "no consensus"). Which are some of the most important details that you think should be included in the more complete diagram? I have an idea for describing best practice for consensus discussions, but I was thinking that this may be best in text... Uniplex (talk) 22:06, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't see where any of the objections have been knocked down. The proposed diagram still has the same problems that were mentioned from the beginning. --Ring Cinema (talk) 01:23, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

As equally does the present diagram. Do people not see by now that consensus-forming is not something that follows a diagrammatic process, and we would do better simply to abandon all attempts to illustrate this policy with diagrams?--Kotniski (talk) 11:42, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

How do you distinguish processes that are "diagrammatic" from those which are not? I suggest that any process is diagrammatic, and that any process that is not diagrammatic is not a process. Are you saying consensus-forming is not a process? --Born2cycle (talk) 20:08, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Well, yes, I suppose - at least, not a single process with defined steps and paths that can realistically be represented on a diagram.--Kotniski (talk) 11:10, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Well, then, I present the proposed diagram as a refutation. How, specifically, is the process of consensus-forming not represented by this diagram? --Born2cycle (talk) 19:49, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Which is currently the proposed diagram?--Kotniski (talk) 09:18, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Latest version now at the top of this section. Uniplex (talk) 11:50, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

All right, so this proposed diagram is possibly an improvement on the present diagram, but it still seems wrong to me - depending on how you interpret it (whether "evaluate" means individually or as a group), it implies either that any edit has "provisional consensus" regardless of how long or short a time it's stood, or that you can't make any change until it's been discussed by the group. Combine the two diagrams somehow (I mean the present one and the proposed one), and you might have something that starts to look acceptable. --Kotniski (talk) 12:18, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Please have a look at my reply above (12:22, 29 November) which also covers a lot of this. Yes, any consensus decision is subject to being overturned at some unknown time in the future, so "provisional" is very apt. Are you referring to the group graphic? The reason it's there is because the view it presents is radically different and preferable to the pitched battles prevalent in many current discussions. It mustn't confuse though; I could perhaps move it under the arrow. I did at one point try to re-express the current diagram in terms of the proposed one, but it simply doesn't work: the current diagram allows things (see bullet points at the top of this section) that rightly, are not allowed by the logic of the proposed diagram. Uniplex (talk) 14:47, 29 November 2011 (UTC) Update: moved the graphic. Uniplex (talk) 20:21, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

"Consensus is the broad, community agreement that we seek in making decisions on Wikipedia"? This seems inaccurate and subject to many interpretations, some of which could be false. If the whole community doesn't participate in a decision, is it still consensus? According to this sentence, maybe not. Uniplex tried to include this on the main page already and I reverted it. Now, it's almost like he might want to smuggle it in where it can't be edited. I'm sure he's not thinking that way but here it is. --Ring Cinema (talk) 04:08, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

We strive for community consensus, but we only ever achieve an estimation of it, made frequently by no more than handful of editors. This is explained a bit more in the notes with the diagram above. @SmokeyJoe, per your suggestion, I've also added a first draft of an expansion of box B. Uniplex (talk) 13:25, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

No, this sentence is inaccurate and misleading. Although it is vague, it still manages to misstate consensus according to the current policy and practice. Since we don't have a problem with consensus at the moment, it's unnecessary, and in any event mischaracterizing it is destructive. --Ring Cinema (talk) 15:50, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

It states it in a way that is compatible with the rest of the proposal: sometimes, incremental change is not appropriate. "we don't have a problem with consensus at the moment". Why do you think Jimbo had to step in and administer closure of the Pregnancy RfC this week? The current policy is expressed and depicted in terms of disagreement, persuasion, and compromise. Well, they disagreed, they couldn't persuade each other, and they wouldn't compromise—these are all facets of opinion, the antithesis of community consensus. Uniplex (talk) 16:53, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

No, that's poor reasoning. I don't accept that the exceptional cases that are seen on RfC's constitute the norm, demonstrate a systemic problem, exemplify a chronic affliction, or reveal endemic failings. Does this diagram proposal do anything to help editors compromise? No. Is it, then, an attempt to change the practices of WP? If so, that should be done explicitly in the usual way, not smuggled in or accidentally included or incompetently overwritten. No, Uniplex, I'm afraid you haven't started to make your case. --Ring Cinema (talk) 23:35, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Break4

The first of the listed "errors" is essentially wrong: "any edit (including bad ones) has consensus if no other edit occurs on the same page (after 24hrs, say)".

Actually, neither of the two points here is correct. A policy-violating edit never has consensus, full stop. You cannot have a consensus to violate the WP:COPYVIO policy. It is actually impossible. Secondly, the "after 24hrs" is nonsense. If a change is made and nobody looks at the page for the next ten years, and when they look at it, they remove it, then that edit does not have consensus. There is no magic time limit.

An edit has consensus when other people approve of it (or do not disapprove enough to remove it). There are various practical mechanisms for figuring out whether other people have approved of your change (passage of time, number of page views since the edit, talk page comments, subsequent change to the article, etc.) but it is the fact of approval, not the existence of these markers or indicators, that constitute consensus. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:09, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

It's pointless to declare retrospectively that an edit that persisted for years did or did not have consensus. An edit may never have been disputed and reverted simply to restore balance after other editing—whether it ever had consensus though, no one knows. Philosophizing about this and what may or may not happen eventually, is a complete waste of time. Characterizing consensus as "provisional" is a practical way of avoiding all of the nonsense. Doing so merely reflects that WP:CCC: any consensus, regardless of its supposed "stickiness", may be overturned by another. So trying to measure stickiness with page views since the edit etc. is again, pointless in this respect. Uniplex (talk) 16:34, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

And, yet, that's what the current diagram on this page (not the proposed one) indicates. That's the problem, and that was Uniplex's point. --Born2cycle (talk) 22:15, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

The current diagram gives the option of the copyvio edit being rejected (e.g., by someone else editing the article to remove the copyvio). This is IMO an accurate reflection of reality and an appropriate description of how consensus works: if you commit a copyvio, someone will (eventually) discover it and remove it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:26, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Not at all. To the contrary, the current diagram strongly suggests that if the article is not edited further after some unspecified "Wait", the copyvio edit becomes "New consensus". The proposed diagram indicates the existing text needs to be evaluated per sources and policy before deciding how to proceed, which at least implies copyvio edits are not even "provisional consensus" (because they violate policy), much less "consensus" or "new consensus".

Further, the proposed diagram gives the same option of rejecting a copyvio change as does the current diagram. --Born2cycle (talk) 02:01, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

The proposal should be placed in a form where all can edit it. --Ring Cinema (talk) 15:52, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

• These new diagrams are not looking much like positive improvements. It seems to be misunderstood as to what is the role of a diagram in supporting text. The diagram necessarily must be a simplification of the text. If the legends and captions of the diagram begin to approach the detail of the text-proper, then the diagram fails its purpose. Another fundamental problem is that some people here are locked into an extremely cautious view of editing, one completely at odds with WP:BOLD and the slogan “you can edit right now”. This approach places unreasonable obstacles in front of an editor who can make an improvement right now, and creates a quagmire of inaction that becomes increasingly unfocused and entrenched. To the extent that this reflects a developing reality (see “verifiability not truth” at WT:V for an example of massive circles of discussion), you may have a point, but policy pages are not merely for describing latest practice, they should describe accepted best practice. Best practice is definitely not holding back on your edits until you are certain that you have consensus/agreement. If that was how we did things, the project would have not got to this point. If that is how things are to be, then its continued growth is to be stifled. Editors pushing for a cautious default process of building consensus here seem to be only at the level of beginner in Wikipedia:Levels of competence. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:08, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
  • SmokeyJoe, do you think the proposed diagram encourages "holding back on your edits until you are certain that you have consensus/agreement"? If so, how? To me, I see A→[Evaluate possible change]→[Conclusion?]→(yes)→[Make the change].  Done. Where is the holding back?

    If not, why are you talking about this here? --Born2cycle (talk) 23:35, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

    • Yes, without doubt. Firstly, the diagram itself. Is the editor newly stopping by required to read the diagram before making the improvement? Does the reading of WP:NPOV and WP:RS constitute a mandatory preliminary action before an edit is allowed. No, it must not, we don’t want that hurdle. More about the diagram: the caption includes so much text that by the time you have read it you will have lost your train of thought on the edit to be made. Or is it to be assumed that only WP:CONSENSUS experts will edit in future. Then, much worse, diagram II balloons in detail on what “evaluate” means. Is the diagram II process supposed to be copleted before "evaluate" is completed? This is way over the top for an introductory diagram. Step 1 must be no more complicated than “make an improvement”. Any more detail is to hold back the start of editorial process. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:58, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
      • This is an absurd and unrealistic position. If someone from France flies into California and rents a car, he is expected to drive according to the rules. Does that imply reading the California Motor Vehicle Code first? Of course not. Similarly, WP editors are expected to edit in accordance with policy, but are not expected to read policy first. How? Because, just like driving rules, WP policy and guidelines largely coincide with common sense. The actual written rules (and helpful diagrams) are only needed for clarification and reinforcement when there are questions or conflicts. To interpret the diagram as introducing the hurdle that the diagram must be read before editing is to presume that all policy must be read before editing. Absurd!

        Point taken about too much text in the diagram, but that's beside the point we're discussing here. I think I agree the more detailed 2nd diagram is not needed. --Born2cycle (talk) 01:26, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

I disagree that my position is at all absurd, or that you make any points saying that it is absurd. Perhaps we are talking cross points. Are you arguing that WP:IAR should be overturned?

Editing wikipedia is *not* like driving. There is nothing reasonable that any person can do that can’t be undone. They can’t break the project. They can’t break the interface. Newcomers have always been told to jump in and edit. Do you want to change this? Editing wikipedia is better compared to learning to crawl.

You second absurd is absurd. No diagram should be considered read unless it is read, at least through one cycle depicted, and all relevant caption. Even then, irrelevant caption must be read to know that it is irrelevant. This is a significant hurdle, unless your position is that few will read the diagram. If few will read the diagram, then what is its purpose?

About the first diagram (whether the current, or whatever is to be the first diagram). Do you disagree that the first action, to be found near the top left, is an initial edit? If you disagree, I feel this line needs to be pursued. The vast majority of pages have no recent activity. If you agree that an initial edit belongs at the top left, then you should agree that the offered diagram needs change.

My preference is to keep the current diagram. I cannot understand any of the objections, other than complaints that it is not the complete truth, which I consider a feature, not a bug. An initial diagram should be as simple as possible while still being workable for simple cases. A subsequent diagram of more detail would do well to be included if it were reference along the lines of “if the process illustrated above fails, try the diagram below”. One should always try the simplest, most common approach first.

Have you yet read the relevant archives (Wikipedia_talk:Consensus/Archive_3 to Wikipedia_talk:Consensus/Archive_6) which contain the history of how we got to be here with the current simple diagram? It feels like new editors want to start from scratch for no good reason.

There was a lot of interest in a more complete diagram. I still think it is a worthwhile idea, but that it should be an expansion of a simple diagram. “Engage others” is missing from the current simple diagram, and is important when a small number are at loggerheads. “Make an edit” is an excellent first method to engage others, but it’s return diminishes with use. The concept of attracting further opinions was present in this diagram, File:CCC Flowchart 4.jpg, for example. We now have the page Wikipedia:Publicising discussions responsible for providing advice on “engaging others”.

Any process of consensus building is thwarted by Wikipedia:Tendentious editing, bad faith, trolls or kooks, for example. A recommended consensus building process should refer to the possibility of needing to resort to Wikipedia:Dispute resolution.

I’m not so certain that I agree that the more detailed 2nd diagram is not needed. I see clear purpose for it. Many poor discussions (including this one) suffer from unclear criteria. Personally, I recommend use of the next edit to define the ongoing discussion, but I can’t deny that on popular contentious pages there is an expectation that editors will desist from repeating reverted edits, and in the case of multiple distinct reverted edits, defining the problem is a worthwhile challenge. However, I’m not familiar with that ever working without “compromise”. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:42, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

There's a lot to discuss here, but I've only got a couple of mins just now. Remember that Consensus is policy and (per the current lead) V & NPOV are very important considerations for WP. Be Bold is a guideline which uses a slogan to try to get people to join the project. However, its message (if you read further) is actually "Be bold, but be careful", an oxymoron. You can't have your cake and eat it. But that problem is one to be conjured with with a "marketing" hat on over at BOLD; here, we're dealing strictly with policy. The notes with the diagram espouse the underlying philosophy of evaluation and Community consensus (which are mentioned in the current text but, for historical reasons, mixed in with opinion-related philosophy. which should be very much secondary), so much of the notes for the proposed diagram could probably become part of the text. Uniplex (talk) 05:44, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Hi Uniplex. Yes, WP:Consensus is tagged as policy. This happened relatively lately for kind of a funny reason. It is, regardless of tag, more a guiding page than an rule page, and it is hard to read it otherwise. WP:Consensus is better described as a principle than a policy (I’m tempted to re-tag). WP:V and WP:NPOV are very important, yes, but this is going off-track. It is not for WP:Consensus to elevate WP:V and WP:NPOV above WP:NOR among the core policies, or among any of the policies. I believe, directly and indirectly from what you have said here and previously, that you misinterpret “bold”. Bold is not incompatible with careful.

I think I largely get where you are coming from, and largely agree in general if not in detail. What do you think of File:CCC Flowchart 4.jpg? Can you image anything better that could use it as a template? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:21, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, good point. That decisions are made by consensus is the principle (correctly located at WP:5P). That consensus is "determined by the quality of the arguments given for and against an issue, as viewed through the lens of Wikipedia policy" is the statement of policy (bizarrely buried deeply in the current page). How to make edits that are likely to have consensus is the guideline. So the policy statement should be on its own page (a short policy, but then so is IAR). I suggest that we do this before continuing further, as it will help to put everything else in the correct perspective. Uniplex (talk) 20:58, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

About flowchart 4: it's hard to see the policy statement reflected in this flowchart; the decision points tend to suggest editor opinion may be a significant contributor to the decision process. Uniplex (talk) 22:31, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

SmokeyJoe, we're not understanding each other. I'll try to be more clear. You wrote: "Firstly, the diagram itself. Is the editor newly stopping by required to read the diagram before making the improvement?". I took this question to be rhetorical, and taking the position that the proposed diagram somehow implies that new editors are required to read the diagram before editing. If that's not what you meant to convey with the question I just quoted, what is? If it is what you mean to convey, that is the position that I found to be absurd, and I explained why.

Of course knowing and following the rules while driving is much more important than while editing WP because when driving lives are stake. But my point is that even with driving reading the vehicle code is not required. So if the existence of the vehicle code and the expectation that drivers know and follow the rules in the vehicle code does not mean drivers are expected to read the vehicle code, why would you think the existence of the drawing and the expectation that editors do what it says implies an expectation that editors are required to read it before editing? --Born2cycle (talk) 06:46, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Born2cycle, my main point there is that the diagram is too complicated, and on an editor's first reading it isn’t relevant to the simplest most common process of consensus building. I asked you a number of simple direct questions above. It would help me if you answered them. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:12, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

The proposed diagram foundered on the contradictions of its aims. It cannot be honestly maintained that it would not have altered the policy, yet that objection was repeatedly answered with the claim that it merely reflected policy. Also, I sense mission creep: there was a wish to diagram all of 'editing' not 'consensus'. But what is the Frame of consensus? In some way it is the ghost world double of all Wikipedia activity. Apart from that, SmokeyJoe mentions rightly that the current diagram does not include engagement; I have mentioned myself that it says nothing about discussion, where, for the purposes of consensus, the heavy lifting is done. That said, the proposed diagram was just way too detailed to work as an adjunct to the article. The usual purpose of a flow chart is to represent visually the flow of data or decisions concomitant to a process; this proposal went beyond that aim with all of its notes, seeking to define what the policy does not; that is why this effort didn't work. --Ring Cinema (talk) 08:18, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

I think the effort is still ongoing, so it's inappropriate to use the past tense. But how about my simpler solution - simply remove the present diagram, and don't worry too much about replacing it? Why is everyone so attached to the thought that there has to be a diagram in this policy? Do any other policies have diagrams? Given that any diagram anyone has come up with so far has been fundamentally faulty - why insist on including a diagram in this policy?--Kotniski (talk) 08:53, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

What is faulty, much less fundamentally faulty, with the proposed diagram? --Born2cycle (talk) 09:07, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

I did answer this above, and I don't really understand Uniplex's point in reply. This diagram shows "making change" as coming right at the end of the process. So (depending on how you interpret the diagram) it means EITHER we're not allowed to make bold changes OR any editor's decision to make a change counts as a new (provisional) consensus. Moreover there doesn't seem to be anything in either the present diagram or the proposed diagram that actually relates to the subject of consensus-building. The existing diagram is basically a representation of the WP:BRD process, and would be better off being put on that page (and that page should be advertised as more than a mere essay, but that's another matter). The proposed diagram seems not to say anything except that decisions are made (somehow) and then acted on. None of this has much to do with how we reach and evaluate consensus, which is supposedly the topic of this page, and which (I continue to believe) is too multifaceted and multipathed a process to admit of any useful diagrammatic representation.--Kotniski (talk) 10:54, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Kotniski, while the existing diagram fits very well with WP:BRD (and do you deny that WP:BRD is a very successful method for quickly finding concensus in cases where consensus is to be found?), the existing diagram is an accurate representation of the process described in the second paragraph of the lede.

The existing diagram very nicely serves the purpose of illustrating (a supplementary form of communication to the text) how consensus building works with editing a wiki page. There used to seem to be a problem that many intermediate editors thought that in the face of a single objection, consensus needed to be achieved through discussion before further editing. That approach would lead to endless unfocused, tangential, interpersonal point scoring essay writing on talk pages. The diagram helps. It doesn’t hurt – nobody misquotes the diagram. Your only sound objection seems to be that it leaves stuff out, and that objection logically suggests the addition of more complete diagrams. I think that to remove the current diagram entirely would be a backward step. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:29, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) RC, why are you so fatalistic about this effort? In post after post rather than making specific suggestions on how to make the proposal acceptable, you express very general and barely comprehensible objections to it. This doesn't feel like a collaborative effort with you; rather, it seems like argument for the purpose of argument.

For example, you write: "It cannot be honestly maintained that it would not have altered the policy, yet that objection was repeatedly answered with the claim that it merely reflected policy." What? Yes, it can be honestly maintained that (a) the proposed diagram does not alter the policy, and (b) the proposed diagram merely reflects policy. It doesn't change policy, it reflects policy. What is contradictory about that? What is the point of writing such nonsense? At least I can't make any sense out of it.

You also finally concede (you say you've acknowledged this before, but I must have missed it) that the current diagram fails to say anything about engagement, and yet you don't explain why that is not reason enough to warrant an improvement that you could support, not to mention all of the other shortcomings we've mentioned about the current diagram before.

I disagree that this proposal seeks to define what the policy does not, but even if it did that, why not point out what exactly that extra stuff is and explain why you think it goes beyond policy, so we can discuss it and see about removing it to make it acceptable to you? Why instead you again choose to make these unproductive nonspecific objections is puzzling, and quite frustrating, frankly. --Born2cycle (talk) 09:07, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

So you are mistaken, B2C. The proposal would have changed the policy. I suppose I could equally lament your failure to collaborate because you pursued a project I considered poorly conceived. In fact, your goal was to write a diagram for the page; my goal is to improve the page. I mentioned repeatedly that over-specification or over-definition of practices or terms will yield unintended consequences. That was a very practical consideration. Since you seemed to believe that we could eliminate unintended consequences, I simply had to keep pointing out the types of errors that will arise. Good results come from experienced editors with stable policies; I'm impressed by the absence of any reasoned contradiction of that idea. (Mockery was tried but the idea survived.) So, you see, my objections were not the least bit abstruse. True, you couldn't change a word here or there to paper over our disagreement. But until there was a reason to add a diagram, I didn't see why adding a diagram would have been good. --Ring Cinema (talk) 10:18, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Frame

Where does consensus begin and the rest of the editorial process leave off? Perhaps upon examination we enter consensus and its necessities always from a finite number of directions. Limited cases, limited reasons, narrow requirements. Where does consensus end and the rest of the process begin? Perhaps we return only with a new consensus or the failure to achieve consensus. Since this article is about consensus, we should discipline ourselves to stay on that subject only. --Ring Cinema (talk) 16:15, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Goal

There's a line I like at User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_88#NOTCENSORED_and_illustrations that says "the proper goal of community consensus should be (generally) to reflect what is in reliable sources." This is specifically about article content (rather than advice pages or behavioral issues, and therefore would have to be labeled as such), but perhaps something like that would be a helpful addition to the lead. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:41, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it's great for content. However, the lead should be a precis of the body. Whether we ever get as far as reviewing the rest of the body, to update it to reflect current best practice, and further highlight/clarify what we all observe as horribly-bad practice, remains to be seen. If we ever do, per RC's section above, we should be careful to keep separate the essential characteristics of consensus from that of content policy. Uniplex (talk) 09:06, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Jimbo's statement at the top of this talk page is also rather good. Someone asked recently if it is acceptable to begin a lead with a quote, to which the response was a resounding "no"; that was in relation to articles though. Uniplex (talk) 09:15, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

On first impression, I don't think it is significant and central to the policy of consensus. It is not really about consensus, but about the project goal. Perhaps add it to WP:Goal. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:16, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

I'd find such an addition helpful, just to underline that consensus can't override other content policies. --JN466 11:32, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Joe, it's a project goal: a goal of Wikipedia should be (generally) to reflect what is in reliable sources. Though I think WP:5P may the place for it, in the second pillar, which skirts round this sentiment. Uniplex (talk) 22:36, 26 November 2011 (UTC)