Talk:Modern schools of ninjutsu

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What happened to the section regarding Jizaikan?

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There is no citations for the Kuroi Ryu. It sounds fishy that a style passed down in secret for generations in Japan is suddenly exposed in the Netherlands. More like a fake background to sell some gym memberships. Lets see some citations! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.225.46.88 (talk) 01:09, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Western Ninjutsu

The U.S. Central Intelligence Agency has originated "Western Ninjutsu." The style is also called Montgomery Style Karate. (The U.S. government certifications in martial arts are certifications to preform or teach "karate," regardless of the martial art style). Dr. Maasaki Hatsumi of the Bujinkan is now teaching Montgomery Style Karate under the name Western Ninjutsu as the standard martial art system for the Bujinkan. Dr. Hatsumi is teaching the nine traditional components of the Bujinkan to nine Japanese masters of Western Ninjutsu so that the ninja arts can be independantly developed. The Chinese goverment has introduced Montgomery Style Karate to its citizens, and 75% of the population currently practices for two hours a day (as of June, 2010). Montgomery Style Karate has ninety-nine fighting sequences that kill in six steps, so government agents can usually kill America's enemies in five seconds with ten moves or less if some of the specific techniques are dodged or blocked by the enemy. Montgomery Style Karate achieves results in one year with a student that otherwise would take forty years of conventional karate training. The training breakthrough comes through training the concepts with documents, and students can become karate experts just by studying the documents alone. Karate experts in conventional styles have been training for fifteen to twenty years. Naturally, training with a qualified instructor on kinesthetic exercises along with reading the conceptual essays is best. People who are interested in working for the Central Intelligence Agency are encouraged to contact the CIA and ask about what kinds of martial arts backgrounds are favorable for retraining in Montgomery Style Karate. <Note to Wikipedia Editors: you can verify all of this information with the Central Intelligence Agency. Reference this note on June 14th and the code name Mr. "A". For security, I am discouraged from revealing my legal name, but my code name for the CIA should be sufficient.>

That sounds super cool. But to be on Wiki we need access to published articles and public documents. It sounds like MSK is probably still classified.Greenshinobi (talk) 03:10, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm part of a super secret ninja school that teaches people how to generate fireballs from all our bodily orifices to kill people. And I mean ALL our bodily orifices. It's a little uncomfortable sometimes. Unfortunately, we have no documentation either, so people keep thinking that we're full of crap (when in reality we're full of fireballs). Anyone can verify my story though . . . you just need to contact your local police department and ask them if they have a 'Mr. E' there. Keep repeating this code name, 'Mr. E' over and over no matter how angry the person on the other end of the phone gets, this is just how we keep our cover. They will eventually ask for your name and address, and if you give them that, then they'll send me out to your house personally. True story. :P --Stvfetterly (talk) 20:09, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Quest Centers

Quest Centers are listed in the 70's. This is complex because Hayes taught in the US in the 70s, but the legal Quest Entities didn't come online until the 1990s... We could put a line for SKH in the 70's or 80's and add (see Quest Centers) and put them in the 90s? Thoughts? Anyone have suggestions? Greenshinobi (talk) 03:13, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Donn Draeger

Donn Draeger's expertise on Ninja's and such things is not stablished as to use him as a source to invalidate these schools' claims or to determine who was "the last of the living ninja". How would he know? It is his POV but it is not something that can be proven. I guess http://www.koryu.com/index.html is more of the kind of site or reference that _can_ be used as NPOV: true research institutes that deal with the historical ninja thing and deny the probability of a conexion between modern schools and ancient ones. This is more encyclopedic, at least this is why I think Dreager's asseveration is out of place... Cheers! --Crio de la Paz (talk) 02:29, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Donn Draeger is a reliable, independent source. I agree that his opinion alone is not enough to establish the fact that there are no more ninja with connection to the historical ninja schools. The quote from him is valuable for two reasons:

• The article reads "Many in the martial arts community...". We need to establish at least one of the many.
• We must let MPOV exist in this article: the experts who believe in the historical link and those who do not.

I think this article particularly is improved by this quote. jmcw (talk) 08:25, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

The claim that Donn Draeger is a reliable independent source about Ninjutsu is not established in the article and could be questioned regarding the specific claim: Where does it say that Draeger is an expert in ninjutsu and Koryu as to be able to claim who was "the last living Ninja". How can _this_affirmation_ be of substance based on a single comment by Draeger? Koryu.com, on the other hand, is a serious organization and, without trying to point who was the last ninja and who was not it does state clearly the concept that modern ninjutsu or ninpo schools are probably not really linked, historically, to the ninja of feudal Japan. I believe that this point is better represented by these organization such as http://www.koryu.com/library/ninjutsu.html or http://business.fortunecity.com/johns/510/koryu.html besides I do believe there should be better quotes and references that one that claims to know exactly who was "the las living ninja" an aseveration that needs real historic validation which would be difficult to assess. What is in question here is not that the real historic value of claims made by ninpo or ninjutsu or taijutsu schools of ancient roots is dubious. What is in question is that it is not verifiable who the las living ninja is or was or could have been. Draeger is claiming that Fujita Seiko was the last living ninja and no other: this is a little specific. I do not know if I make clear what my objection is, it is not that some if not all historic roots claims are more legendary than historic for modern ninpo or ninjutsu or taijutsu schools: these are, probably, more legend that historic truth. But the claim itself is not verified, at least not to my knowledge. Cheers! --Crio de la Paz (talk) 06:57, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

This article has an important function

This article has an important function: documenting the modern ninja movement.. There are historical ryu that taught ninja skills and there are large modern schools that teach ninja skills. The historical ryu have been studied a long time: references exist to establish their Wikipedia articles. The modern schools (like many areas of martial arts) might not yet been studied by reliable independent sources.

Although large and world-wide, the modern schools might not have sufficient quality references for their own Wikipedia articles (as with Genbukan). I think the extensive use of non-independent source is (in the context of this article) quite useful: it an acceptable Wikipedia practice which documents the modern ninja movement.

Because all the material in this article is presented as 'claims', I find the use of primary or non-independent sources valid. The lead paragraph warns a reader about the difficulties of the claims. If any of the modern schools are (in the future) discovered to be a hoax, this article will still be valid. jmcw (talk) 09:02, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

• Question: Would there be support to rename this article to 'Modern schools of ninjutsu'? jmcw (talk) 09:04, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Modern schools of ninjutsu makes more sense than the current name. --Crio de la Paz (talk) 07:11, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Since nobody commented I did the name change. --Crio de la Paz (talk) 23:06, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Genbukan

It is iteresting that Genbukan's article was deleted and Shoto Tanemura's article also but i.e. Bujinkan has an article and Masaaki Hatsumi has an aricle, Fran Dux has an article, Stephen K. Hayes has an article (who was also trained by Tanemura when at Bujinkan,as I read in blac belt magazine, Donn F. Draeger has a page that looks like a fan page, Akban has a page, etc.

Is there a _real_ reason why Genbukan's page and Shoto Tanemura´s page were deleted?

I really don't see it from the citation below and what I remeber of the original articles.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Log/2011_September_15#Genbukan

Cheers!

--Crio de la Paz (talk) 03:40, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

This is the original page for Genbukan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genbukan&oldid=448737196

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genbukan&oldid=292888031

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genbukan&oldid=355692061

I mean: really I do not see any more notability issues or need of deletion of these pages on NPOV grounds compared with many other existing martial arts pages. I do think personal preference is being imposed over real notability or verifiability of what is claimed in subsequent revisions of this article.

Truly there is an explanation?

Cheers!

--Crio de la Paz (talk) 03:49, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Of the links you posted above,

• [1] - 100% references are directly from the Genbukan. No independent sources to establish notability.
• [2] - 100% references are directly from the Genbukan. No independent sources to establish notability.
• [3] - 100% references are directly from the Genbukan. No independent sources to establish notability.

You need to read WP:N if you're honestly confused why the Genbukan articles you posted were not considered notable. If you can find some independent sources that support it (grabbing a few BB articles that were mentioned in the AFD discussion and maybe some additional newspapers/books that aren't written by Genbukan members to support it), and want to flesh it out a bit I don't think that anyone would have issue with the creation of another Genbukan page.--Stvfetterly (talk) 13:28, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I did not post Genbukan articles. I might have visited some of these articles at times and might have added some info but I am not the primary author of these articles. In the affore metioned discussion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Genbukan

This sources are mentioned:

Encyclopédie technique, historique, biographique et culturelle des arts martiaux, Gabrielle Habersetzer,Roland Habersetzer. p703. Takagi Soshin Ryu. http://books.google.co.cr/books?id=mqTP18US1asC&pg=PA703&dq=shoto+tanemura&hl=es&ei=4j5mTpnxNcmhtweTirWHCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCsQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=shoto%20tanemura&f=false

Martial Arts of the World: An Encyclopedia of History and Innovation, Volumen 2 Thomas A. Green,Joseph R. Svinth. Ninpo in the Modern Era. pp 170-172. http://books.google.com/books?id=P-Nv_LUi6KgC&pg=PA171&dq=shoto+tanemura&hl=es&ei=KEBmToD3BczAtgeKteH-CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CE0Q6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=shoto%20tanemura&f=false

And from what I can gather this happened: aditional sources were asked for, Black Belt Magazine articles specifically, they were provided and thus some tags removed. Articles were retagged demanding for the third party information but the person who added the info thought issues had been addressed. The pagged was semiblocked and the IP user understood somebody wanted extra info and provided the above mentioned encyclopedias, which, for some reason, were completly ignored in the AfD discussion and article was removed.

That is what I, myself see. Maybe, some day, I might take the time and study the Martial Arts of the World Encyclopedia, I am even thinking of buying it along some Draeger books, and maybe I'll write a Genbukan article for the Wiki, although, if it will be erased because Tenanemura _is_ making on _his_ webpage some unsubstantianted claims, What is the point in doing all that work?

What is the point to contribute to the wiki if somebody that dislikes the subject comes along and destroys the work?

Cheers!

--Crio de la Paz (talk) 18:54, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

From the Martial Arts of the World: An Encyclopedia of History and Innovation "In 1984 Tanemura (Tsunehisa) Shoto (1947-) who was a student and trained with Kimura, Sato and Hatsumi, established the Genbukan organization and began to propagate Takamatsu's traditions..."

From Encyclopédie technique, historique, biographique et culturelle des arts martiaux "Takagi Yoshin-Ryu (Jap): ... Hatsumi Maasaki et Tanemura Shoto l'ont repris dans leur enseignement".

Appart from the Black Belt Article by Andy Addams "The Battle for Ninja Supremacy" of DIC85 which I do not see how is not an independent source. Andy Adams was a (is?) foreing correspondent working out of the foreign press club in Tokyo. He (Adams) also conducted an interview with Hatsumi regarding in some respects Tanemura on 86, where Hatsumi depicted Tanemura in a bad light.

There is also Yim Young's article on Steve Hayes that mentions Tanemura as one of the people that trained Hayes and John Stewart article on Hayes that does the same, besides articles written by Hayes himself, but articles by independent correspondents and articles about Hayes, Tanemura and Hatsumi on the discussion page on Genbukan and on the AfD were equated: as if saying that an article written about Jigoro Kano is as much a primary source as an article written by Kano.

One of the issues was notability, as I recall, but the ammount of dojo's around the globe or the attention or the ammount of students or the articles were all deemed not evidence of notability: that is baffling...

This is what makes one wonder: why write Wiki articles so people can just destroy them just because they do not like the subject?

--Crio de la Paz (talk) 00:30, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Regarding the post above by Stvfetterly:

I do not know where did or do people get the idea that http://www.ninjutsufederation.mk/schools.html is linked with Genbukan, or that http://wayofninja.com/2009/ninjutsu-martial-arts-the-genbukan/ is linked with Genbukan. And as I recall http://kageshin.startlogic.com/ninpolibrary/ninposanjurokkeis.html was not related to Genbukan (it is broken now) and I am not being able to access http://www.samurai-sword-shop.com/connector/category/genbukan/ which I believe is not related to genbukan either. If 6 out of 10 references are not related to Gebukan that makes 40% related to Genbukan not 100%.

At the time: rereading the AfD and discussions and else what happened was that _all_ sources were related to Genbukan. This was modified and these sources added by an IP address and the tags removed. Tags were added againg without explanation and without verification, tags removed -> semiprotection -> explanations on talk page regarding that _40%_ of references were Genbukan -> demands for Black Belt Magazines Articles -> Privided -> other sources -> provided including other magazines, dojo's around the globe, and encyclopedias -> AfD -> Discussion where articles in BB Mag, other magz, different sources, multiple dojo's etc. were provided -> article was deleted without a pausible explanation.

I believe the issue was that some people are confusing a modern evolution of "ninpo taijutsu" "bikenjutsu" "bojutsu" and some other arts trying to emulate some traditional ways with "being a ninja" without reading about the arts or knowing about them. So, in the AfD it is stated that "The Japanese Consulate said "Only legends of ninja remain". Ninja were a historical fact - I do not critique these articles. I see a group of modern martial artists who created a business out of a myth. Modern ninjutsu does not have reliable sources" these personal believes, that these schools are "a business created out of a myth" without any substantiantion are what warranted the deletion of the article, not WP:N, encyclopedias, magazines and other independent sources had been provided to back up the existence and notablity of Genbukan. It was personal belief on "businesses created out of myth" what warranted the deletion of articles regarding Genbukan and Tanemura and has kept warranting them, time and time again. --Crio de la Paz (talk) 01:12, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Regarding the sources you've brought up Crio:

• [4] - This one directly copies it's information from this wiki page. Wiki pages can be edited by anyone, that means that it's not a valid source of information.
• [5] - This is a blog written by people who only give their first names (Curtis, Joyce, and Logen). Not really a good source of information, as anyone could write a blog.
• [6] - Dead link as you mentioned
• [7] - Dead link as you mentioned

If you're keeping score, that makes all reliable references that exist invalid, and all other links in the article directly related to Genbukan. I'm not (and I don't think that the average editor is) trying to say that ninjas don't exist. There's plenty of documented historical evidence of them. If you can find enough references that exist, are valid, and are not directly related to the Genbukan then make an article!--Stvfetterly (talk) 14:44, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Still no explanation of the reasoning behind the AfD discussion or the blocking of the page. The only reason for the deletion and blocking I still see is the one I provided "businesses created out of myth" no other reason was provided in the AfD. There was an interest in blocking an IP from editing a page while the IP user (or users) were learning about wiki and prividing more info and finding out about the Wiki and providing more and more info, at first stuff that migh have been questionable, then encyclopedias and all: I will not do the job of a group of people just because Stvfetterly commands me to. People willing to edit were compelled not to because they were blocked from doing so because of personal believe: "businesses created out of myth" of some wiki editors. As I stated about I myself might do the job, if I find the time (I have a family, a job, and multiple occupations) and am not willing to loose my time because some people are jealous of Tanemura Shoto's achievements or his business. I might even buy some of Draeger's books and one of Encyclopedias mentioned above and might share a little in the wiki, if I find the willingnes and the time. But editors should avoid the intention of blocking new IP users without trying to guide them in a more willingful manner towards better documentation without letting their POV on subjects getting on the way. I might one day do an stubb on Genbukan or on Tanemura or on another subject but I might be wary of doing them since there are people clearly (to me) trying to block the devolpment of the wiki. That is what I can gather, at is, at least, what I can gather. --Crio de la Paz (talk) 19:00, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

And it does not make "all realiable references that exist invalid" if you check above it makes all references that IP addreses were able to add invalid. When they could not add any more and Black Belt Magazines articles, other magazine articles and Encyclpedias were asked for to validate they were provided. Does Stvfetterly claim that Black Belt Magazine, the other magazines quoted, the different reporters that covered the articles, and the encylopedias, _all_of_them_ were either related to Genbukan or were all so questionable that none warranted enough notability to warrant a wiki article and thus -> deletion? I mean I just went to the Brazilian Jujitsu page and all reference are to brazilian jujitsu related pages, not a single independent source is provided, no secondary sources, no sources independent of the subject, etc. Don Draeger sources and the sources provided to justify, by the IP people are not only similar, much more material was provided to justify Genbukan. It could be argued that most books justifiying what Aikido is are aikido books, thus not independent from aikido. Now: here all dojo's somehow teaching Genbukan, along other arts, or that have studied Genbukan or Bujinkan or anything related to Ninpo are being treated as being "primary" I believe this is plain wrong. A martial artist that has a dojo and has trained Judo up to his 3rd or 4th Dan and Jujitsu up to his 3rd and 4th Dan and relates his experiences training with Shoto Tanemura is somehow Shoto Tanemura himself? Hayes is somehow Genbukan because he trained under Tanemura in Genbukan? So anybody that read about String Theory is invalidated about writting about it? So any secondary source automaticaly transforms itself into a primary source but only in modern Ninpo related stuff? Because it has been argued that, since Hayes trained in Bujinkan he can't be a secondary source for Genbukan. But Hayes is not related to Genbukan nor Hatsumi, as per example... I'm sorry but I do see a bias in this AfD against modern Ninpo/Ninjustu in relation to other content and specially other marital arts content and I do think it has to do with people thinking that other people are claiming that they are "true ninja's" which this is not true: anymore that a modern judoka does not think he is a "true samurai". And I do train in Genbukan and know what I am talking about and nobody over there thinks himself as a "ninja" (at least nobody in his right mind). Cheers! --Crio de la Paz (talk) 19:25, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Bugei Ryuha Daijiten

There are some references here to Bugei Ryuha Daijiten and to Watatani Kiyoshi, but wikipedia's article on the subject indicate a lack of notability and lack of secondary sources for the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten article. So we are using unverifiable not notable information in order to question the verifiability of other information? When does this trying to deny verifiability and notabily and trying to erase schools that are not to this or that person liking? This looks like one of those MA tournaments or seminars or reunions where every school tries to deny the verifiability of another schools: it seems ludicrous to me to use the Encyclopedia to try to promote and demote personal affiliations and choices! --Crio de la Paz (talk) 04:00, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I come from reading the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten and it does not seem to say what people are saying it says...

http://books.google.co.cr/books?id=FaTfuuIlmqcC&pg=PA171&dq=Kiyoshi+Watatani+Takamatsu.&hl=es&ei=q3PMTuLOBYausQK0vIjnDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&sqi=2&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

Now I do not understand at all! It seems that there is a lot of confusion around these things.

"In modern times <Takamtsu> was instrumental in perpetuating Ninpo traditions" "In 1984 <Tanemura> ... established his Genbukan organization and began to propagate Takamatsu's traditions..."

It seems something is amiss..

Cheers!

--Crio de la Paz (talk) 04:25, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Martial Arts of the World: An Encyclopedia of History and Innovation

This encyclopedia and it's entries regarding Ninpo/Ninjutsu do not seem to add up to the descriptions given on this article. Pages 162 to 171 can be read via Google Books. There are quite a bunch of references to the encyclopedia and the encyclopedia has quite an impressive list of colaborators and editors... The article on the Wikipedia reads as an ensemble of bits and pieces that have not been placed on proper persepective because of some assumptions without proper research. --Crio de la Paz (talk) 07:26, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Feel free to rewrite the information based on what the reference actually says. Silverseren^C 09:29, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

OK: will do as soon as I get the time: cheers! --Crio de la Paz (talk) 16:18, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

• I like this quote from the encyclopedia . . . it may be applicable to this modern ninja article: "Yet there are no ninja today, only practitioners of some of the techniques and students of the tradition. Achievement of some rank in a school teaching ninjutsu cannot make one a ninja any more than learning techniques with a sword can qualify one as a samurai" - G. Cameron Hurst III, Martial arts of the world: an encyclopedia, 1st edition, p. 361--Stvfetterly (talk) 13:43, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes: that sums up the issue: like trying to figure out how a fight with a long sword might have been handled or could be handled is quite different from being a medieval knight. Practicing some modern form of Taijutsu is not "being" some sort of "ninja" doing modern kendo or jujitsu or aikido or judo is not "being" some sort of ancient "samurai" even if some of the people involved in developping the arts go back to some of the Budo or Zen or Shinto or Buddist philosophies or try to understand from some more or less ancient sources what some ancient warriors might have done when developping the _new_ arts, or even if they try sometimes to reconstruct somewhat what might have happend in a duel of sorts for a movie or for acting or in the Dojo. --Crio de la Paz (talk) 02:27, 6 January 2012 (UTC)