Talk:Punk subculture

When?

When did the Shakespearean term punke (prostitute) turn into punk (male prostitute)?

To be moved

Since this page is a disambiguation, I've shortened it and removed the following text to be moved to another appropriate and more specific article. Strike throughs have been used in disamb page or moved. Maybe copy of this should go to Wikitionary? [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm|^(talk)]] 11:40, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)

Yep, I suggest that all the etymological information and non-encyclopedic material be moved to the wiktionary page (I just created a link). The rest, we can somehow integrate into the relevant articles (for example the stuff on punk music should go to the punk rock article). --Lexor|Talk 13:23, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)

Modern usage of the term

1. Reference to followers of punk music, fashion or culture.

2. In prison slang, the term retains its urban street culture meaning and refers to a male who is treated as a sexual submissive.

3. Social and political set of beliefs, morals and standards indicating an absolute rejection of conformity. In many ways nihilistic, followers tend also to reject capitalism, government and social norms of the mainstream cultures and relgions. Alternately pacifist and violent by nature, it is a seemingly contradictory philosophy focused on the present. Adherents tend to prioritize the moment- often at the expense of history, or future personal success. An individual identifying as "punk" is likely to experience life as a raging fire or die trying. Many have co-opted the punk aesthetic for its commercial or cultural capital, yet the core believer will reject both. It is defined by its lack of definition. Adherents will reject arguments of most requirements, belief structure or even the label "punk" itself, yet when viewed from an objective standpoint these seemingly ungainly values come together as a unique way of living.

4. A small piece of kindling used for lighting slow-igniting substances.

5. A small stub of a cigar. This meaning is derived from the oldest uses of the term.

Terms derived from the word punk

Punk rock, named in reference to the above term, is a largely musical movement that arose in the mid to late 1970s and reached its peak of popularity in the early 1980s. Etymology of the term is suspect, but it likely derives from the customers of the first venue for such music, CBGB's in the Bowery in New York City, who were alledgedly male prostitutes. The music was therefore 'rock for punks.'

More recently, many variants on the punk sensibility have resulted in the word punk being combined with other terms - for example, "eco punk," meaning a person with punk attitudes who is dedicated to environmentalism or concerns about ecology.

See also: punk fashion, cyberpunk

External links: Open Directory: Punk Rock

Original meanings

The original meaning of punk is combustible material such as rotten, mouldy faggots of firewood or wood with Polyporus fungus growing on it. Alternative names: spunk, punkwood, funky stuff, amadou. The punkwood is dried or charred and used in a flint and steel fire. It may be used as tinder or char. When put into an already blazing fire, especially if not completely dried, this kind of material may cause explosive "popping" or "fizzing" sounds (See also: fireworks).

In Shakespearean slang punke is used as a word for a prostitute, interchangeable with the word "croshabell". For instance in "Merrie conceited Jests." by George Peele (undated but probably published in 1620) one of the jests is called "How George gulled a Punke, otherwise called a Croshabell."

This meaning (prostitute) remains in use to the 18th century. In the early Restoration (1672), Samuel Butler begins Hudibras by saying that the English Civil War had:
". . . made them fight, like mad or drunk
For Dame Religion, as for punk,
Whose honesty they all durst swear for,
Though not a man of them knew wherefore." (Canto I, lines 4-7)
It is a meaning that has never entirely disappeared, though it has, in the 20th century, developed a specialized context.

Slang. A young person, especially a member of a rebellious counterculture group. An inexperienced young man. Music. Punk rock. A punk rocker.

Slang. A young man who is the sexual partner of an older man. Archaic. A prostitute.

Excess

I have removed the following item from the dab "

• In Shakespearean slang, punke is a prostitute.
• In the English county of Somerset there are two traditional uses of the term "punk".

1. Hunky Punk, a stone carving of an ugly face on the walls of buildings
2. Punkie Night is a local Somerset variation of Halloween. (Source:Punkie Night on National Geographic's '"Pulse of the Planet"')

• A punk is a combustible material or a piece of kindling to light slow-igniting substances. Also a small stub or cigar.
• In American prison slang the word "Punk" is used to label the a person who is scared to do certain acts because the act may be illegal or frightening, also used as an insult agianst the misfit of a group."

--Commander Keane 11:01, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Things to be done

• Fill out 'Visual arts', 'Dance', 'Literature', and 'Film' sections under 'Culture'
• Make 'Fashion' section less focused on classic look--summarize Punk fashion article
• Make 'Music' section more of an overview of punk rock rather than specific definition of the sound
• Give a handful of example bands under 'Music' from a variety of substyles
• Write 'History' section--massive job!--not focused on music like Punk culture and Punk rock--maybe make History of punk if too long, with brief summary and link in Punk
• Write short paragraphs for all the subcultures under 'Subcultures within punk'--quick summaries of main articles
• Write short paragraphs about how punk relates to other subcultures under 'Relationships to other subcultures'
• Write 'Relationship to popular culture' section--commercialization, pop punk, influence on rock
• Make 'See also' section
• Give detail to major scenes under 'Regional scenes' section
• Add images
• Make new article for Punk visual art

Ecto 13:09, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Factual Accuracy

• This article is predominantly perscriptive rather than descriptive and needs a complete rewrite.Tombride 17:48, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Could you be more specific? What are some of the biggest problems? I know it's not perfect, but can you give some idea of how to fix it? The Ungovernable Force 04:22, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and what facts are you disputing? The Ungovernable Force 04:22, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

The factual accuracy tab is just the best fit for the problems I see with this. As I said above the article is a completely perscriptive view of things. The problem is mostly that the article has been written by "punks". It is worded so to avoid any criticism of the punk scene; it paints too rosey a picture. Tombride 06:16, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I wrote about 90% of this article and I'm not a punk. Ecto 06:58, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

By the way, if it's NPOV you're worried about, that wouldn't be the factual accuracy tab, it would be the neutrality tab. I'll change it if that's alright. Also, what exactly do you take issue with? Ecto 07:03, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Well then, paint a bleaker picture, as long as what you say is NPOV itself we should have no problem. I'm the first to admit the punk scene is uber-screwed and has serious problems. If you have anything specific, please add them. The Ungovernable Force 07:26, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I really don't think it's an issue of NPOV. As I think about it, probably the best tag to add would be a needs improvement tag. The article just is written from a really narrow viewpoint. Also, TUF, I don't apprectiate your taking such a combative stance here, it's really unneeded.Tombride 01:47, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

How was I combative? I agreed with you. The Ungovernable Force 16:42, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

The problem of the article being written from "a really narrow viewpoint" would be a NPOV problem by definition, so a "needs improvement" tag would not be exact enough by your reasoning. I will remove the NPOV tag until we can sort out what the best tag would be. Tombride, could you please supply specific examples of what you think is wrong with the article? That would go a long way in communicating your views. Thank you! Ecto 02:42, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I can do that, I'll have a little more free time tomorrow and I'll put something up. I see that request has been made twice and I'm not ignoring it. I've just not gotten around to it yet.Tombride 03:01, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I've reread the article. I would say there is litterally NOTHING in this article that warrants being kept. It reads like a middle school english essay by some kid who just cut himself a mohawk. This is a essentially an article on the punk music scene from the late 80's onward. It doesn't discuss the aspects of punk art and music from the first wave (you know, when they mattered). Punk deserves an article on wikipedia, but this article is complete and unadulterated garbage.Tombride 17:43, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Then fix it. The Ungovernable Force 23:11, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

There is plenty of content in this article which pertains to the first wave of punk, including the art and music sections. How does that content ignore the first wave? Of course, much more content is needed, not only regarding the first wave, but also the contemporary subculture (this article is about both, no matter how unimportant you think the contemporary subculture is). Please contribute what you know about the original subculture, since more content is needed on that subject. Besides that, your criticism of the article is still as vague as ever. Once again, I have to let you know that specific examples would be helpful. Would you please provide some? Ecto 03:18, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Fun with Punk

“Punks seek to outrage propriety with the highly theatrical use of clothing, hairstyles, cosmetics, jewelry and body modification.”

You automatically outrage people and get body modfications when you've been wearing the same clothes for a year and thereby smell like a shit.

“Punks enjoy stage diving, crowd surfing, skanking, pogoing, hardcore dancing and moshing.”

Now, did we? From what I remember most of us were too busy clinging to the bar, to jump around like monkeys.

“The Young Ones is, in some ways, a punk television show.”

No, not really.

“U.S. punks sometimes faced abuse from Rednecks and other right-wing groups such as the Nazi-Skinheads.”

Read 1st comment.

I could go on forever... But I won't. The article is a joke and needs a complete rewrite.