Talk:Geisha

Sorry Guys

Sorry guys, i challenge the impartiality of this page.

See

http://joi.ito.com/archives/2003/04/28/are_geisha_prostitutes.html

ALso, Arthur Golden, the guy who wrote 'Memoirs of a Giesha' said in an interview:

For example, all apprentice geisha go through something they call mizuage, which we might call, "deflowering." It amounts to the sale of their virginity to the highest bidder. Back in the '30s and '40s, girls went through it as young as thirteen or fourteen--certainly no later than eighteen. It's misleading not to call this prostitution, even child prostitution. So we can't say that geisha aren't prostitutes. http://www.randomhouse.com/vintage/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780307275165&view=qa

The San Francisco Chronicle ran an interesting article which also supports the view: The thinking goes that there used to be legalized prostitution in Japan, and that geisha were paid to entertain men, so therefore geisha were prostitutes http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/06/20/PKGBF74BU61.DTL

Giesha sell there virginity, that makes them prostitutes, albiet high class, cultured, expensive, educated ones.

Not Prostitutes

Regarding "Sorry guys.."

The sources you cite are of questionable authority. Try reading Liza Dalby's geisha. She was probably the only westerner to penetrate deeply into their secretive world and examine their customs from the inside. Dalby is one of the most reliable sources of information on Geisha. Make sure you check the backgrounds of your sources. The geisha world is not well understood by outsiders, and people who jump to summary conclusions and round-off complex issues based on misinformation are doing a disservice to those genuinely interested in the subject.

First of all, young maiko are no longer called upon to part with their virginity in accordance the custom called mizuage. That custom that is now obsolete. Second, it takes more than an obscure, once in a lifetime event to brand a person a prostitute by trade, which is misleading. Third, Geisha don't earn their living by getting paid for sex. Finally, citing Arthur Golden as an authority on geisha is like citing George Lucas as an authority on space travel. Golden is a romantic novelist who was was sued by his own source of information, a geisha named Mineko Iwasaki, for misrepresentations.

male geisha

I reverted some (to my knowledge) nonsense about the first geisha being male: however, the contributor seems to have made good edits elsewhere, so I thought I'd mention the deletion here. Can anyone provide any evidence for this remarkable assertion? -- Karada 10:50, 22 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Oh, look, Google is your friend.

• http://www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/kunoichi/themestream/taikomochi.html
• http://www.japanese-incense.com/geisha-bedini.htm
• http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0747264260/ref%3Dpd%5Fsim%5Fb%5Fdp%5F3/202-7709597-3191017

OK, back it goes. -- Karada 10:54, 22 Oct 2003 (UTC)

question about the picture: are these women "dressed as" geisha (actually, more correctly, as maiko) or are they actual maiko? An important distinction. Exploding Boy 12:13, May 22, 2004 (UTC)

link cycle

The term "mizuage" in the article redirects back to this article. I am removing the reference to eliminate a link cycle. Matthew Plough 04:55, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Not prostitutes

Not wanting to be too salacious here. I'm sure I have the traditional, Western idea of what a geisha is. I wouldn't be surprised that it is wrong. :-)

The article says "Geisha are not prostitutes." So, was there no sexual activity between a geisha and a customer? Or, was sex not an expected part of the transaction, but it often happened? Or, .... (I'm too embarrassed to list out all the variations, gradations, and permutations that come to mind.)

Also, I don't quite understand this sentence:

Although in the past the right to take their virginity (an event called a mizuage) was sold, they were not obliged to have sex with any customers, even the men who paid dearly for their virginity.

Somebody paid for the right, but then there was no obligation? Perhaps these might not the usual Western meanings of those words?

DanielVonEhren 00:14, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

"Real" geisha (that is, not "hotsprings geisha," who were/are prostitutes) were/are not prostitutes, at least not in the traditional sense of the word. They did often have danna, that is lovers/benefactors with whom they had sexual relationships--often longterm--and who paid many of their expenses, however. Exploding Boy 19:31, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)

That's kind of what I expected. Perhaps you should try to incorporate your knowledge into the article. (I'd do it, but I have have any knowledge.) Something like that although many geisha did have liasons with their customers, they were not prostitutes in the common Western sex-for-money sense of the word. I would think that words along that line would better fit the Wikipedia's spirit of a NPOV. It might even help explain the right and obligation thing that is still seems contradictory.

DanielVonEhren 22:11, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Can somebody provide a source for the mizuage/danna/sex thing? I know this comes from Arthur Golden's "Memoirs of a Geisha", but that's fiction. Mineko Iwasaki strongly contradicts it in her book "Geisha of Gion". Vashti 13:51, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Given the lack of a source and Iwasaki's statement that no one's virginity was ever auctioned off in Gion, I have removed the references to mizuage from the article. KGiles 02:08, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

I can recommend Sayo Masuda's "Autobiography of a Geisha" (translated by G.G. Rowley), describing the (now former) hotsprings geisha. This book does describe how the system with danna, selling the geisha's mizuage (even multiple times!) etc. worked in prewar Japan. The way I read it, the hotsprings geisha were also expected to engage in sex with their customers, and could risk some kind of corporal punishment if they didn't. 80.196.148.217 20:20, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Liza Crihfield Dalby is another confirmation source for the outdated [i]mizuage[/i] ceremony. When she was living and working among the geisha of the Pontocho district (the primary rival district of Gion) in the mid 1970s, she was told about [i]mizuage[/i] by several older geisha and longterm clients. Even at the time, she was told it was an old-fashioned ceremony which was no longer pursued. She discusses the stories in her thesis, which was later published as the book [b]Geisha[/b]. The book was re-issued in 1998. As far as I am aware, [i]mizuage[/i] was never much of a "controversial" subject nor so hotly denied until Mineko -- understandably angry at what she perceived as a betrayal of trust by Arthur Golden -- made her claims that he made it up. Very clearly, he did *not* invent it for his novel.

I removed the following part of a sentence "Geishas are not prostitutes... the only exception would be the Geisha from mainland China." That statement is extremely POV and a common Japanese stereotype against non-Japanese Asians, and is also levelled against Korean geisha as well. It is not factual, and should not be considered for putting back into the article unless someone can provide proof and links and there has been a discussion on this talk page. --154.20.68.142 06:38, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

~/~/~/~/~/~/ Mizuage is a really controversial issue. Most of what I've read says that mizuage is when a geisha offers her virginity to the highest bidder. This and when they have a danna (basically a geisha's boyfriend except they pay for her expenses) are the only times that geisha have any sexual relations. The man who wins her mizuage doesn't have any obligation to become her danna or anything like that. But Iwasaki (author of geisha of gion) says that its a misconception and mizuage isn't too different from a sweet 16. The geisha changes her hair and her clothes and it's just another stage in the artist's life.

I found the direct quote from Iwasaki. I think she makes it pretty clear that mizuage does not involve virginity for a geisha. :"Q: Talk to me about the mizuage ceremony. What is it, and why is there so much confusion about it?

A: This again goes back to the separation between the pleasure quarter and the entertainment quarter. Mizuage is really a coming-of-age ceremony, and apparently there was some selling of the virginity that went on in association with that ritual ceremony in the pleasure district a long time ago. However, that has never been true for the geisha. For the geisha, it was simply when they were becoming a young woman, similar to a sweet 16 in the West, and it was symbolized by the change in hairstyle, into a more womanly, grown-up hairstyle. And also certain subtle changes in the ensembles. There are a lot of rites of passage, but for some reason this one has been really latched on by people, and maybe it’s because of this misunderstanding.

Also, it is true that as with many of the rituals and rites of passage, once one has become a maiko [geisha-in-training], or a geiko, it’s very expensive, because every time you go through an entire change of kimono, for example, or of hairstyle and you need different hair ornaments, these are expensive things. For me, I was the successor to the house, the atotori, so there was no question that the money was there to provide this. But if someone is coming from the outside and training, as basically someone who is there under contract, it is expensive, and sometimes they do ask their patrons to help pay for the cost involved in making the transition.

Q: But their virginity isn’t offered in exchange for that help?

A: That is never on the table. There is one other potential source of confusion, and that is with the word "mizuage" itself. In the Gion, the geisha district, and in many areas of the entertainment industry, "mizuage" is also a term that directly means "gross earnings," because it’s an old fishing term; as you may know, Japan was dependent on fishing for one of its main economic bases for many years. "Mizuage" means "to take out of the water." It stood for the catch. "What was your catch?" — "How much money did you make from the water?" So when I refer to mizuage, I’m actually referring to my earnings, rather than the ceremony itself."

It is from an interview of Iwasaki by Tamara Weider in the Boston Phoenix, the url for it is http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/news_features/qa/documents/02473409.htm. I'm suprised nobody mentioned it before, it is one of the first Google results for "mizuage." puppies_fly 22:18, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

add a section on western misconceptions?

I think we should add a section on western misconceptions. Item #1, Geisha aren't prostitutes; yûjo are prostitutes. Item #2, Ge - i - sha not gissha. Any other ideas for the section? --Carl 13:42, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

First Giesha was not male...

The first Giesha was Izumo No Okuni, a woman.

• Nope. Izumo no Okuni was part of the kawaramono, or riverbed people. She and her troupe pioneered the kabuki dance style and preformed in dry riverbeds until they were shut down by the shogunate. She *inspired* the first geisha (she predated them), but Izumo no Okuni was never one of them. - Sofia ( http://www.sofieloafy.net/geishamain.htm )

Photo

First of all, the photo for this article should show geisha, not maiko. And they don't look like real maiko either. They are likely tourists who underwent a maiko makeover. Can the photographer confirm that they are real? Real maiko would know how to pose well while dressed in kimono. They do not pose like that, with the sleeves ruffled, umbrella held unaesthetically, etc.

I don't see why. A maiko is a type of geisha, after all. These maiko look authentic enough to me; if they don't look practiced enough to you maybe they're just new. Exploding Boy 22:17, May 8, 2005 (UTC)

No, they are not authentic. Confirmed by this page: http://www.flickr.com/photos/russellc/13168902/ Photojpn.org 15:11, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Not sufficient confirmation for me. The person isn't an expert, obviously has no inside information, and doesn't speak Japanese by the looks of it. Either way, it's still basically irrelevant. Exploding Boy 20:03, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

OK, if you like this picture so much, I won't replace it. Photojpn.org 10:33, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Hey, it's not that I'm in love with the photo... Please, feel free to add more pics and/or replace it with a better one. Exploding Boy

Why replace it if they look "authentic enough" to you, you still think they are real (I don't care to spend more time to try and convince you that they are not real), and "it's basically irrelevant?" I was all but ready to replace it and add more images (selected from among my hundreds of geisha images), but your reaction has really irked me. "Geisha" has been crossed off my list of "Wiki images to be replaced." Someone else can do it. Photojpn.org 03:35, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Look, I thought we were having a discussion. Perhaps, if you were considering adding images from your collection, you should have said so rather than pussyfooting around and then throwing a hissy fit when you didn't get the response you wanted. If you have an interest in Wikipedia and this topic, I don't know why you'd want them to suffer because you have an issue with me. Exploding Boy 19:03, May 25, 2005 (UTC)

Read my notes again please. What you call "pussyfooting" was consensus-building. You yourself said this thing is run by consensus (which was not reached). All your responses were negative. Very ironic since you were the first to ask the same question right on this page. Throwing a hissy fit? Not me. Photojpn.org 02:21, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

Meaning of "geisha"

I think we need some consensus about this before it gets out of hand. I think we can agree that "artisan" is plain wrong, and that "artist" isn't the best translation. If we are going to say "literally," then "art person" is the most correct. If we're giving a literal translation, it doesn't have to be pretty in English. Exploding Boy 22:01, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

I don't see why "artist" isn't a good translation. A person who performs art = artist. But if I get no support for this claim, I suggest "person of the arts". A little long, but more elegant English. -Himasaram 09:59, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Butting in. There's a Indian English usage, seen in credits for Bollywood films. Artiste. Actors and singers and dancers are artistes. Wouldn't that describe a geisha? Zora 10:08, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Artiste" sound affected and pretentious. Once again, if we're giving a direct translation of the kanji it doesn't have to sound "elegant," and "art person" is the most correct. Exploding Boy 20:07, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)

I must disagree. Giving a direct translation of the collection of kanji that make up Japanese words is not how you translate them. A word is a word, even in Japanese. Finally, I don't see why we shouldn't at least try to get an English translation that sound "elegant"?? That doesn't make sense. -Himasaram 21:30, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

When you use the term "literally," then you should be giving a literal translation. The actual translation for 芸者 is geisha. It is not "artist" (which would be アーティスト, 画家, or something similar), and it's certainly not "artiste." Exploding Boy 23:31, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)

The blind leading the blind again. Exploding Boy is someone who answers questions even if he does not really know the answer. (See my exchange with him above where he tries to answer my question which he himself asked before.) In English, when people hear the word "art," most think of the visual arts like paintings, drawings, sculpture, photography, etc. In Japanese, when people hear the word "gei," they think of the performing arts like singing, dancing, acting, etc. Most of the kanji compounds using "gei" refer to these performing arts, such as geinojin (entertainers), daidogei (street performance), etc. Therefore, "art person" is not good, and "person of the arts" (should be "performing arts," but that might be going too far) is better. Photojpn.org 08:20, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)\\

To begin with, someone needs to take a look at Wikipedia: No personal attacks. I really have no clue what you're trying to say, Photojpn. Did you even read my post before you responded? You seem to be agreeing with me while simultaneously insulting me. What, pray tell, is the big difference between "art person" (the most literal translation) and "person of the arts" (which, by the way, is not strictly accurate)? Exploding Boy 17:28, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

Right, no personal attacks. That's what I thought too until you accused me of pussyfooting and throwing a hissy fit (see above). (From a Wikipedia Admin no less. An anonymous one at that.) But that didn't bother me as much as the questionable quality of your replies. What exactly are your qualifications and expertise to answer questions about geisha? And no, I don't agree with your "art person" proposal. "Art person" is almost the same as "artist" which you (and I) don't like. "The arts" implies multiple talents (which geisha have) and has a broader connotation (read: performing arts) than just "art." That's why I say that "person of the arts" is better than "art person," but it's not necessarily perfect. But if you change it to "person of the performing arts," I would not object. Photojpn.org 18:29, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I might ask you the same question, but I won't bother. I will, however, point out that we are all anonymous here. Revealing personal details is not a prerequisite for participating in Wikipedia, even as an admin. At any rate, you, like Himasaram, are repeatedly missing the point. Exploding Boy 20:02, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

Another false answer. No, we are not all anonymous. Some of us identify ourselves on our personal pages. You can easily find out who I am if you click on my username at the end of this message. In the same way, you can easily tell us your real name, location, credentials (if any), and qualifications (if any) on your personal page. If you don't do this, how can we take you seriously? I am demonstrating to you and whoever else is reading this, the inherent shortcomings of Wikipedia which seriously affects its long-term credibility. You are the one missing the point. Photojpn.org 20:19, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

We're moving way off topic here. The fact that you provide information about yourself on your user page means absolutely nothing. It could all very easily be untrue. We are all anonymous on Wikipedia, and despite your opinions on the subject, and no matter how much you wish it were different, that's the way it is. You may consider it a flaw, but there you are. And by the way, I've looked at your user page and frankly, nothing I saw there convinces me you in any way have special "credentials" or "qalifications" to discuss this or any other topic. Exploding Boy 20:29, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC) --> added: Let me make it clear that I'm not saying you shouldn't be editing Wikipedia, just pointing out that the information you provide says nothing about your supposed qualifications (and even if it did that wouldn't give you exclusive right to edit articles). Exploding Boy 20:33, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

You at least know my name, where I'm located, what I specialize in. Many people identify themselves truthfully. So they are not anonymous. If you ask me what my qualifications are, I would gladly tell you. (I'm not a geisha expert so I haven't touched this article, but I do read Japanese.) In your case, we know nothing about you. Why are you so shy? Imagine if Wikipedia were a printed edition. You think people would buy this encyclopedia when the writers/editors are all nameless and anonymous? How can we take you seriously if you decide to remain anonymous? Photojpn.org 05:00, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Um, what about using "performing artist"? Zora 07:45, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Performing artist" isn't correct either. Photojpn, if you want to continue the discussion about anonymity, you can do so on my talk page, but please remember that I don't have to answer to you or anyone else. No one on Wikipedia is required to divulge personal information about him- or her-self. If you don't like it, feel free to start your own project. Exploding Boy 17:41, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

Zora, the word geisha consists of two kanji characters: gei + sha. "Sha" literally means "person." That's why we want to use the word "person" in the literal translation. The problem is "gei" which does not correspond to any one word in English. "Artist" might sound better in English, but it's not a literal translation. To Exploding Boy, this will be my second-to-the-last message on a Japan-related Wikipedia page. I'm withdrawing my participation in Wikipedia to spend more time on my own project (which I had started even before you suggested it). (My last message will be on the Tokyo discussion page.) Photojpn.org 11:45, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Before everyone tries to debate the proper translation in English, perhaps someone should research into the proper Kanji writing for geisha first. I am not Japanese myself, but I thought the proper writing for geisha is 芸妓 and the term 芸者 is for performing artists. Actually 芸妓 is one kind of 芸者 too by definition. Google search finds 65K 芸妓 and 170K 芸者. Looks like the google matches on 芸者 include other artists like musicians etc. Those who continue the research should pay attention to traditional usage vs. modern usage too. The second character of 芸妓 carries a negative connotation because another usage of 妓 means prostitutes. Since 芸妓 is not a prostitutes, the name might have changed in modern usage to stay away from the misleading image. Kowloonese 21:55, Jun 24, 2005 (UTC)

The japanese version of this Wikipedia article (as well as the linked site Immortal Geisha) states that the difference between "geisha" and "geiko" is that the former is Tokyo dialect, and the latter is Kyoto dialect, and the words for apprentices are "hangyoku" and "maiko" respectively. It also says that these two sets of expressions are used to refer to geisha and apprentice geisha in Tokyo and Kyoto respectively. It is interesting to notice that in english usage (in my experience), while the Tokyo dialect "geisha" is used, the Kyoto dialect "maiko" is used when reffering to apprentice geisha. Also, the japanese Wikipedia article states that "geigi" is the broader term, including both "geisha" and "geiko".

Maiko vs geigo

The article refers to apprentice geisha in romaji as maiko. However, 芸子 and indeed the given hiragana pronounciation is "geiko" ("young geisha" according to wwwjdic). Having a romanization entirely different from the original Japanese seems rather misleading. According to wwwjdic, while maiko also means "apprentice geisha", it is written 舞子. Am I missing something here?

---

To answer your question to the best of my ability... In Kyoto, maiko is generally written 舞妓 and geiko is typically written 芸妓. The characters 芸者 are pronounced geisha, and this a the term used just about everywhere outside of Kyoto, to my knowledge. The characters literally mean "art person" or artist, but the term is used in Japan exclusively for geisha, not for artists in general. -Todd Laracuenta

Minor Changes/Contributions

My compliments to the original contributor of this article. Great work.

I took the liberty of making a few minor rhetorical adjustments based on information from my own conversations with geisha as well as friends of geisha (properly geiko-san) in Kyoto, Japan. The information that I submitted and/or adjusted, regarding the danna-san, the prostitution stigma, and the status of Gion and Pontocho, is widely available to those interested in the subject. A number of books, such as Liza Dalby's "Geisha," as well as documentaries, such as A&E's "The Secret Life of Geisha" provide clear, verifiable information. Virtually all of the information I submitted is reflected in those and other credible sources.

I also added a photo of a geiko as she works a gathering in typical fashion. While snapshots of geisha posing outdoors are commonplace on the Internet, I have found that candid glimpses into the actual banquets where the geisha typically earn their living are relatively rare. The geiko-san that appears in the photo (in which the cigar is being lit) is a real-life geisha hosting a gathering in a ryotei on Hanamikojidouri, which is the main street in Gion that is shown in another picture on the page.

It is apparent that the two "maiko" pictured at the upper right section of the article are, in fact, Japanese women posing as maiko and not the real thing -- just as the caption indicates. The kimonos, the hair styles, and the way the maiko are standing are all wrong -- not even a brand new maiko would be permitted to pose this way. It is a beautiful picture of two very lovely creatures, but it is not authentic. In my opinion it should not be included in this article for that reason alone. I would leave it in place, though, until someone finds a suitable replacement. It does have good visual impact.

I hope my contributions were useful. If not, please edit or delete them. The article is still far from perfect or complete, so hopefully more people will come forward and contribute.

Todd Laracuenta

Kanji Character for Geisha

In the english article, it says that the Kanji character for Geisha is 芸者, but if you go to the Japanese article for Geisha, they use the character 芸妓 instead. I understand there are differences on how the word for this particular art is used in the Kansai region and the Tokyo region, in which in cities like Kyoto, they tend to use 芸妓, while in Tokyo they tend to use 芸者. My question is, which one should the english wikipedia use?

• • I would say we should mention both, but primarily 芸者 since it corresponds with the word geisha. Geisha is a term used in the west and pretty much everywhere in Japan outside of the Kyoto/Kansai area. Ironically, the traditional roots of the art are in Kyoto, and most of the "geisha" we see in the movies, in this article, etc. are actually depictions of entertainers from Kyoto who would refer to themselves only as geiko. Nonetheless, I think it would be inaccurate to connect 芸妓 with the word geisha without explaining the difference. So, I would say that the kanji 芸者 is appropriate for this article, with the kanji 芸妓 included with an explanation of the difference. ToddLara 23:37, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

The kanji 芸者 is read geisha, and the kanji 芸妓 is read geiko or geigi (with different meanings). In the Japanese article, the title is geigi (芸妓), and geisha (芸者) and geiko (芸妓) are discussed as Tokyo and Kyoto dialect for geigi.

Copied?

Part of this article appears to be copied from this page. The makeup section in particular. Rmhermen 23:38, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Also, the Geisha hairstyles section is word-for-word copied from this [page]. It's possible that the original author was also the author of that page, but it seems unlikely. There doesn't seem to be any copyright information (as the link is to a personal webpage) but it is on a .edu website so that might mean something.

"poppy"

Poppy Industries is no nore in Australia. It closed down some years ago. Sorry guys but its no longer around and the products are gone too.

Suggestions

A BBC2 documentary broadcasted yesterday noted two additional facts about maiko/geisha, though i cannot verify them. The senior geisha house keeper and trainer, excuse my expressions, revealed to a maiko the following purpose of the white make-up: in older days it would reflect the scarce candle-light in order to show her face better, and thus showing the geisha's beauty clearer. Another note was that the 2 V's in the neck were a sexual reference, but to what was not explained. Still all this could be a local or personal explaination, making me hesitate to add this information. 83.85.83.86 11:04, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

As to the first, I can't verify it, but if it's not true it's a lovely story. As to the second, the nape of the neck is considered sexy. The 2 or 3 unwhitened portions left in that area are supposed to heighten the effect. Exploding Boy 16:31, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

OK. I'll try to verify the first, as soon as i can make time for it. W.ouwehand 20:25, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Contradiction

I put in the contradiction template, because of the (seemingly) contradictory mentionings of the term used in Kyoto (geiko, but only maiko (both in first paragraph)). --Marcoscramer 21:21, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

According to immortal geisha, maiko is not geisha but training to be a geisha which last for 5 years of training. Geiko is another word for geisha, only used in Kyoto. (From the information I gathered.) jynx 04:52, 7 April 2006 (UTC)