Talk:Takis Fotopoulos

Untitled

This page survived an AfD. The discussion can be found here. enochlau (talk) 00:34, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I deleted "Having contributed only a handful of publications to peer-reviewed journals, and none to mainstream newspapers like The Guardian (see [1] or [2] for articles that were rejected)" because he has contributed articles to mainstream newspapers in Greece and Turkey. I also deleted "managed" because it was useless, not to say, offending.--TheVel 13:56, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

A cursory reading of the Guardian articles shows to any regular reader of this newspaper that the articles were in fact REFUSED (not rejected) for obvious political reasons, given that the Guardian line on both was opposite to the one supported by Fotopoulos, who has frequently not hesitated in his writings to criticise the reformist line of this paper.It is not accidental that the Guardian never published articles by, say, Murray Bookchin or other significant libertarian writers, particularly if they referred to current political events (Student in Britain) 18:46, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I deleted, "Although he never got a PH.D." and an inaccurate paragraph about heated exchanges. I replaced it with a more accurate account with links.--john sargis 6:05, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I believe it's valid to include Fotopoulos' lack of a PhD degree in this article; In his english-language CV, as posted on his own website[3], no postgraduate or doctoral studies are mentioned. In the Greek version[4], however, he does mention that he received a postgraduate degree in Economics from the London School of Economics. Do note, also, that, in the Greek version of his bio, Fotopoulos translates the english term "Senior Lecturer" as "καθηγητής", which is the Greek term for "Professor". Quite misleading on his behalf, no? And I have to note his rather dramatic[5] stance on the whole Wikipedia article about him, as well as the whole AfD debacle shows that Fotopoulos has a serious problem with people cross-checking facts about him and scrutinizing his positions and work. Coming from Greece, I think this has a bit to do with his status as a "Holy Cow" among Greek leftist theorists and I am quite sure he tries to exploit the language barrier to its fullest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.66.176.47 (talk) 19:47, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Your attempt to discredit Takis failed. john sargis 10:54, 28 January 2012

Violation of WP:OWN by ID members

john sargis needs to learn to respect Wikipedia's rules and stop removing referenced additions that were made to the article. I understand that John Sargis, being a member of Inclusive Democracy (therefore a biased editor), gets upset at the thought that international readers will realize that Mr. Fotopoulos has embarked on a smear campaign against many democratic movements (such as Democracy Now!) and even the Free Software movement, but this has got to stop. NOW. Otherwise, I'm going to end up reporting his antics to the administration of Wikipedia for whatever further actions need to be undertaken against this disruptive behavior. As for the Inclusive Democracy's melodramatic and rather libelous against Wikipedia announcement (basically, we are talking about Mr. Fotopoulos and his few Greek followers) of withdrawal from Wikipedia[6], I find it rather amusing (to say the very least) to see that they do not honor it. Men of honor stand by their word - at least that's what I thought so far. Elp gr (talk) 18:42, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Elp gr attacked the biography of Mr. Fotopoulos, just by sheer speculation, based on articles that Fotopoulos didn' t even write, as is shown in the talk page of john sargis. In fact all allegations by Elp gr are feeble, based on sheer very personal speculation, without any reliable Secondary sources dealing with Takis Fotopoulos work, as are the references in his biography. These allegations, in fact, seem to be completely biased and not accidental, as Inclusive Democracy has been under attack by a tiny group of bloggers because of Takis Fotopoulos' and others' proposal for direct-democratic and self-managed blogging by the bloggers and internet activists themselves. This libertarian ideal is something users (hopefully, a small minority) like Elp gr don' t desire, for reasons e.g. like the ...easiness to distort Mr. Fotopoulos' biography, due, obviously, to their personal libellous interest. It is indicant that the withdrawal from the Wikipedia mentioned above was also well substantiated, with specific facts that were also certified by Wikipedia adiministrators as well. So, it is more than a lie that Fotopoulos or Inclusive Democracy want Wikipedia "censored".Panlis (talk) 01:07, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Oh please. If you don't like Mr. Fotopoulos and his team's announcements being referenced here, maybe these announcementw shouldn't be written in the first place. After all, they are taken from his own website. As for the "direct democracy in the Greek blogosphere" etc, Mr. Fotopoulos and his team set against internet anonymity and also, in an email (which has now been published online) he sent to another blogger, Mr. Fotopoulos threatened a blogger with continuous harassment until the blogger would end up suing Mr. Fotopoulos, thus providing Mr. Fotopoulos with the blogger's personal information. Why would Mr. Fotopoulos want the personal information of someone who just happens to not agree with him 100%? Ask Mr. Fotopoulos, if you wish. Furthermore, Mr. Fotopoulos, in one of his recent Greek-language announcements, has labeled an important blog/news aggregator (the "You Pay Your Crisis" blog) as an... "instrument of the Israeli Embassy". Also, have you heard the news? It is not the (unpaid for 9 months now) personnel of Eleftherotypia that caused its publication to be "suspended". It was its ownership's mismanagement, which led to its bankruptcy. Elp gr (talk) 03:34, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, lies after stacks of lies, just for the sake of vandalism. These articles are taken from the Inclusive Democracy web site [7], which is not Mr. Fotopoulos' web site, but the Inclusive Democracy web site, that is a whole political organization. Obviously, you can' t even read the labels in a web site and who signs the articles and announcements, so what are you doing in Wikipedia, really? Attributing another person' work to another is a blatant logical fallacy and distortion, by any standard, and this would be sufficient for any kind of slander, as your vandalisms. The same applies to the fact that of course when and if someone smears somebody else repeatedly and does a personal attack without verifiable evidence, through anonymity, based on speculation and hir/her personal interest e.g. in the Left or in some internet business, this could be a good reason for the latter to sue the former for the slanders, although Mr. Fotopoulos has never done this before, as he explicitly stated, in his 71 years of age. Of course slander is by no means a kind of disagreement, as you comfortably present it, but there are standard criteria in rational and/or scientific discourse which define what slander is, like unsubstantiated or poorly substantiated attacks, arbitrary censorship, etc.. And Mr. Fotopoulos justly wanted to defend himself and his work from this sort of insidious and defaming distortion and censorship against ID and himself in some new media like Indymedia and some blogs, as he had every right to do, regardless if this is in the internet or anywhere else in the publishing world.

Moreover, he did not proceed with these just (in the context mentioned) "threats", but he proposed, as he had done many times in the past, self-management and direct democratic decision making of bloggers and internet activists themselves, which should abide by some ethics and self-control, as used broadely in every section of serious social activity, in all sort of publications etc..

Second, you repeat the same false and malicious arguments that you added to john sargis talk page and to which I replied there. If you don' t want to abide by the rules set by Wikipedia you should not repeat what has been plausibly replied with specific evidence and not distortion, then you could be easily deemed a vandal in Wikipedia. All info about this blog "You Pay Your Crisis", along with specific evidence of what happened, has been posted. So Mr. Fotopoulos did not call the blog "an instrument of the Israeli Embassy" as you repeat, but he just parallelized what the blog implied about Mr. Fotopoulos antisemitism (and what you also implied, just copying/pasting these unsubstantiated claims!), with what the Israeli Embassy thought of him. The "instrument of the Israeli Embassy" moto is what the blogger who censored Mr. Fotopoulos and Inclusive Democracy claimed (links in john sargis talk page), in order to defame him and supposedly turn this blog into a "victim". So, a biased adoption of this "claim" on your behalf, distorting the other' s words is a logical jump and fallacy which is also obviously malicious, with everything this implies for your motives.

Last, you repeat the same lie about Eleftherotypia: Eleftherotypia was filed for bankruptcy, as this is a normal legalistic device to avoid proceedings by creditors, but in the meantime there are discussions for the sale of 30% of shares to another publisher who has already agreed to continue publication and at the moment it just suspended publication because of the strike of the stuff, not because of "bankruptcy", as you misconstrue the case.Panlis (talk) 13:38, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

OK then, I'll start translating everything that was written. Elp gr (talk) 16:04, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

I am adding the following to my reply to the malicious accusations and distorting lies of Elp gr.

He writes: "As for the "direct democracy in the Greek blogosphere" etc, Mr. Fotopoulos and his team set against internet anonymity and also, in an email (which has now been published online) he sent to another blogger, Mr. Fotopoulos threatened a blogger with continuous harassment until the blogger would end up suing Mr. Fotopoulos, thus providing Mr. Fotopoulos with the blogger's personal information. Why would Mr. Fotopoulos want the personal information of someone who just happens to not agree with him 100%? Ask Mr. Fotopoulos, if you wish."

What Elp gr does not mention above is that this blogger had described TF as suffering from dementia, paranoia etc. and also falsely (as he himself admitted) accused him of personally slandering Castoriadis, which he never did. It was at this point that Mr. Fotopoulos wrote to him and asked him to abandon anonymity and come into the open to criticise him in any publication he liked. He is lying that Fotopoulos just wanted his personal information, which any way, had Fotopoulos wanted to sue him, he could easily find it out

He also writes: "Furthermore, Mr. Fotopoulos, in one of his recent Greek-language announcements, has labeled an important blog/news aggregator (the "You Pay Your Crisis" blog) as an... "instrument of the Israeli Embassy."

This is a blatant lie. What Fotopoulos wrote was: "I have to point out that this miserable calumny (that we are antisemitists), it was only the Goebbelists of the Israeli embassy who uttered it publicly against us, and it seems that your blog goes along with this." (calumny) Moreover, this was further explained in the dialogue between Fotopoulos and the the blogger of "You Pay Your Crisis". Here is an article (in English) showing the kind of “anti-Semite” Takis Fotopoulos is!Panlis (talk) 18:31, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Elp gr also disputed the following fact, reverting my addition about Takis Fotopoulos' political activity in Athens: "He was elected as a member of the Administrative Council of the Law students Union in 1958-59, following the first victory of a Left alliance in which he participated against EKOF, an extreme right wing student association controlled by the 'deep' Greek state , which a few years later, in 1963, was responsible for the murder of Left parliamentarian Grigoris Lambrakis and 4 years later of the military coup which led to the military dictatorship (1967-74)"

What sort of citation could be given on this? The only citation could have been a negative one if somebody has disputed this entry which was standard in all Fotopoulos' books published in the last 20 years or so. This never happened. And something else: E.g. In Michael Albert' s bio it is written “During the 1960s, he was a member of Students for a Democratic Society, and was active in the anti-Vietnam War movement.” Why nobody asked for a citation on this? Obviously for the same reason Fotopoulos cannot give a citation in his participation to the Greek student movement, although we gave many more details on his activity than Albert’s bio did.

Judging from the above, I conclude without any doubt that Elp gr' s activity is highly distorting, in the brink of vandalizing repeatedly the entry, and this has been also rightly implicitly or explicitly spotted by other users and administrators of Wikipedia as well. The addition of the WP:NPOV in the entry, is therefore redundant and disruptive and another indication that this user is not bonafide at all and would probably like to vandalize the entry, as he already repeatedly arbitrarily altered it, misconstrued the words of others in the talk pages, altering facts, and s/he added the need of extra citations to verifiable facts per se, as was shown above.

So, I assume it is prudent to demand the immediate removal of this Header, along with the removal of the Header on additional sources in a BLP.Panlis (talk) 19:27, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Well , the templates are not so bad for a little while - they at least show editors that there is a bit of dispute and work required to improve the biography. If you want to calmly lay out any issues you have with the current content on the talkpage and if you have any reliable sources to support anything that is uncited currently that would be beneficial. Rather than carrying on the previous dispute, we rather focus on content. - Thanks - Youreallycan 20:03, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Hello. Other editors and I have already done significant improvements and provided citations for everything, even for those demanded by this biased user (many more than those provided by other -non disputed for neutrality- Wikipedia bios), so I cannot see why a tag disputing the neutrality of the article should stay just because one user, who was shown to be utterly biased, did so, and therefore I think it is high time that this tag is removed, as there is no dispute anymore.Panlis (talk) 12:46, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Following my and other editors' efforts to achieve consensus (making lots of improvements, even to meet demands by user Elp gr) and, as in fact a consensus has already been achieved among everybody else (even among the people in the biographies talk), apart from this obviously biased user, I now proceed to the removal of the tag.Panlis (talk) 21:31, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Seems like a reasonable position. Youreallycan 21:33, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

I am terribly sorry to interrupt, but the vast majority of the sources and references provided for this article are from publications and websites directly controlled by Mr. Takis Fotopoulos himself (the "Democracy & Nature" publication, the "Inclusive Democracy" websites etc) and there are aspects of Mr. Fotopoulos' biography that are mentioned only on his own websites or have been copied verbatim from his own website on other websites friendly or affiliated to him. This article looks a bit too much like the one on Jamie Zawinski. I will also have to add that I do not see any mention of criticism on his positions; in articles about other scholars, philosophers etc, we usually do see sections with criticism of the subject's views, positions, even actions. To my eyes, this article looks a bit too much like an attempt by people who are - more or less admittedly - followers of Mr. Fotopoulos to write a hagiography about him. In my eyes (and I must say I was not really aware of Mr. Fotopoulos so far, until I ran into this article while studying various other articles on Libertarian Socialism), this article does not look as neutral as Wikipedia would require. SentientContrarian (talk) 06:23, 29 March 2012 (UTC)