Talk:Mel Lyman

Cult Leader

I disagree with the removal of Lyman from the category "Cult leaders". First of all, he was a cult leader, and his only fame is as a cult leader. To have him in category "Harmonica players" but not "Cult leaders" is misleading, as he is far more notable in the later category as the former. Second of all, there are very few sources about Lyman that don't describe him first and foremost as a cult leader. The Rolling Stone article for starters, amd any of the sources listed in the external link, including at least one book. If the assertion is being made that he isn't noted enough as a cult leader in major books and publications (which I don't think is true), then that would mean he isn't notable enough to have to have an article at all (which I think he clearly does). (Admittedly I wrote this article fairly early one and didn't cite sources for major statements, but they're all there in the external link). Herostratus 02:04, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Again...

• Was Mel a "religious leader"? No, he wasn't. There never was a religion "Lymanism" under that name or any other. Mel or his followers didn't write any coherent set of scriptures, there was never anything like a liturgy or any other religious practices, there was no clear-cut creed, there were no "Lymanists" outside of the few hundred Family members.
• Was Mel neither a cult leader or a religious leader, but just another musician? Of course not, don't be silly. Mel is notable for as the leader of the Family, otherwise he would not merit an article.
• Was Mel just the chief of a commune, the Family? He was that, but he was more than just that. I mean, look at the Kweskin quote in the article (and there are many more). (e.g. "There is no doubt in my mind that Mel is the Creator. He is the center of Creation ... He makes me feel the Spirit. He is next to God, if not God himself..." - Richie Guerin)
• Was Mel a "cult leader"? Yes, he was, and everyone at the time understood this, and he was known as such at the time. His charismatic personality was the key element here. People were attached to him personally, in quite an extraordinary way, and believed him to be more than just another person. I'm not saying "cult leader" in a pejorative way. After all, Jesus was a cult leader at first (the religion came later, with St. Paul and the other first church fathers, and the writers of the Gospels.) If "Lymanism" had evolved into a real religion, we could in retrospect call Mel a religious leader. But it didn't, mainly because nothing that Mel wrote or said had any real staying power.

Anyway, I'm going to revert back to that version, absent any counterargument. Herostratus 09:19, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Looks like the whole Cult Leader category was deleted by a former administrator with a conflict of interest (jossi). Oh well, this makes WP less useful for the user once again. 24.4.132.165 (talk) 16:06, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

i rented from the enlightened realty trust/jim kweskin

in the late 80's around twenty young idealistic punks rented two houses from the remnants of the mel lyman cult.we wrote our rent checks to the enlightened realty trust and had our day to day interactions with a burned out jim kweskin. during our stay at the compound we were only allowed communication with the male members of the landlord group as the women were shipped off in vans every day not to return until nightime. at some point in our time there we broke in to a forbidden room in our basement.this room was the darkroom and archive for the avitar magazine. more to came —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.231.38.44 (talk) 10:37, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

cult leader

An editor has objected to the characterization of Lyman as a "cult leader". It's not clear exactly what his objection but since she's not gone to the talk page I will.

• The word "cult" is a word of the English language. It has a meaning which can be looked up. The word "leader" is also a word of the English language. It also has a meaning which can be looked up. If the editor is making the point that either "cult" or "leader" are not English words, the onus would be on him to explain why there are entries for these words in most English-language dictionaries.
• The phrase "cult leader", composed of these two words, also has meaning in the English language. It is not an idiom but simply the combination of the two words in such a way as to support this description: a person who is the leader of a cult. If the editor is making the point that "cult leader" is an idiom the onus would be on him to demonstrate that.
• If we assume that the above points -- that "cult", "leader" and "cult leader" have common and easily accessible meanings -- the editor's objection may be that "cult leader" mischaracterizes Lyman. But this is not a valid objection, because if "cult leader" can be applied to anyone, it would be Lyman. Again, if "cult leader" has no meaning and can't be applied to anyone, that's one argument. But if it has a meaning and can ever be used, Lyman would certainly fill the bill as well as anyone else who has ever lived, I would say. And though Lyman did some other things, such as play music, these are entirely peripheral to his notability and his reason for having an article. And there's no need to imply otherwise in the lead.
• Or maybe it's something else.

But whatever, per WP:BRD it's up to the editor suggesting the change to make her case, and consequently I've restored the lead absent such a case being made and proven. Herostratus (talk) 00:46, 23 May 2011 (UTC) Also see the section "Cult Leader" (different capitalization) at the top of this talk page, where the characterization of Lyman as a cult leader is defended in more detail. Herostratus (talk) 00:50, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

That is most one the bizarre rationales for anything I have see on Wikipedia. Basic WP:NPOV states Avoid stating opinions as facts The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 16:18, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Ummmm OK well I'm glad to have contributed to your experience of the unusual and grotesque, I guess.... =/ I'm not sure where the stating of opinion comes in here so I'm rather at a loss as to how to continue... I don't see any opinion offered from the editors to the effect of "Lyman was a blackguard" or "Lyman was a wise man" or anything even close to that... there are quotes to this effect (from both points of view) from people who knew Lyman, but this is allowed I think if it's not a BLP, the quotes are ref'd, the quotes cogently bear on the subject, and things are kept balanced, and... but anyway your edits aren't even to that material but rather to the lead! So.... hmmmm. Herostratus (talk) 18:01, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Herostratus (talk) 18:01, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

criminal activity

Mel Lyman was responsible for the deaths of two of his followers - Thien & Frechette - as a result of the armed robbery attempt on the NE Merchants Bank. Among his other followers, there were assault & battery (especially against women), kidnapping, rape, illegal weapons, shoplifting, welfare fraud, etc. Mel always had plausible deniability, as is usual with cult leaders, who can claim that their followers got out of control. Of course, they were good artists and model citizens.

Number of albums where Lyman had creative control

The article states, regarding the album Jim Kweskin's America, that "This is the only recording on which Lyman had creative control". Another editor has disputed this with a note to the effect "Warner/Reprise contract with Mo Ostin was two record deal with complete artistic control on both." However, I don't think that any other album was made and released (except for Jim Kweskin's America) where Lyman produced and/or had creative control, which is what counts. I'm willing to be instructed otherwise, but is there a reference for this second album? Herostratus (talk) 04:31, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the chance to discuss this a bit further with you. Checking the release dates of the albums it turns out that the first album was in fact "American Avatar: Love Comes Rolling Down" performers listed as The Lyman Family with Lisa Kindred. The actual tapes for this record were recorded in New York in 1966 at the Vanguard studios in New York. There was quite a difference of artisitic values in the production at the time, detailed somewhat later in, among other places, in a rather dramatic and notorious article in Rolling Stone. The differences led to a standoff which delayed the release of the record by Vanguard indefinitely.

The tapes of these sessions were played a couple years later for the president of Warner Brothers records, Mo Ostin. As stated by Lyman on the jacket of that record:

"I've been waiting to get this record released for three years and it is finally only possible now because I played the tapes for Mo Ostin a few months ago and be loved them."

At that point Mo Ostin signed a two record deal which included buying the tapes from Maynard Solomion at Vanguard and releasing them as "American Avatar: Love Comes Rolling Down" with liner notes and artwork supplied by The Lyman Family. The second album, released a bit over a year later on the Warner/Reprise label was "America". There was no interference with Mel Lyman and the Lyman Family from Warner/Reprise (or "corporate" as they would say nowadays) on either record. They both stand on their own so, in light of this history, I have to say the prior characterization of the America album as "the only" album is incorrect.

I have also corrected the title on the first album.

Thanks for your time and the chance to set the record straight on this detail.BishopBandita (talk) 15:00, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

But I don't think this is correct. American Avatar: Love Comes Rolling Down was a Lisa Kindred album. It was supposed to have been her second album, the follow up to I Like It That Way (and was to have been titled Kindred Spirit, I think). Lyman played harmonica on the album, is all. He didn't have creative control or anything close to it. He stole the master tapes (or had someone else steal them) and later -- God knows how he managed this, but I guess he could be pretty persuasive and must have had considerable chutzpah -- managed to get an entirely different record company to release them under the title American Avatar: Love Comes Rolling Down by the Lyman Family. And they were remixed, to bring his harmonica forward (and perhaps in other ways). But remixing is a very long way from having creative control. Herostratus (talk) 00:48, 10 June 2011 (UTC)