Talk:Voseo

Tratarse de tú y vos

In Vargas Llosa's Conversation at La Catedral, it is used (once) "tratarse de tú y vos" to indicate familiarity between boss and servant. Internet gives back a few more examples. Now, in Argentina I've never heard it. Is it common in Peru or elsewhere? If true, it might be interesting to mention it here. Ejrrjs | What? 09:06, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, perhaps it has been used in Argentina:

nada más que porque estábamos en el extranjero, ya se imaginaba que debíamos de tratarnos de tú y vos.

Lucio V. Mansilla: Horror al vacío.

Differences among countries

This needs more research, but it should be noted that among the distinctions between countries, some countries use both. My understanding is that in some parts of the Spanish-speaking world, vos is condescending rather than familiar, whereas in other countries this is obviously not the case.

In Costa Rica vos is moslty used and tu is usualy regarded as being "imported". Kinds that watch a lot of Discovery Kids (like mine) use tu, at least for now. In Guatemala and El Salvador you might find a little more of tu and a little less of vos. --65.182.16.84 23:41, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

The idea of importation is an interesting one indeed. I think this should be explored. For example, the large number of immigrants in Spain who use the form could render Spain non-red on the map, should it not? I know it is not common in the media or in scholarly settings, but it certainly is heard amongst the large Argentine population in Spain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.153.218.61 (talk) 00:35, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Você (Portuguese) vs Usted (Spanish)

European Portuguese "você" and Spanish "usted" are not semantically equivalent. The deferential form of 2nd person address, both in Brazil and in Portugal, is actually "o senhor/a senhora" rather than "você". "Você" is normally used in Portugal to address someone who is socially equal, but whom you don't know very well. Unlike Spanish "usted", I believe "você" would not be used for example to address the president of the Portuguese republic or any other public authority. Besides, I think the comparison with Brazilian Portuguese is inadequate in the sense that, unlike "vos" in Spanish, "você" is a standard Portuguese pronoun which simply happens to have acquired a different semantic value in Brazil replacing informal "tu" (see the T-V distinction article for further information on Portuguese and Brazilian usage). 161.24.19.82 17:00, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

In Argentina vos is a standard pronoun, and since 2001 Real Academia Española uses the Argentinian conjugations in its web page. See for example the conjugation of mover. HaŋaRoa (talk) 20:25, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

No Sources

There are no sources on this page to support entries. Elhombre72 10:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

There are now. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 11:55, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, now you need ones that weren't written by English-Only speakers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.210.97.28 (talk) 03:33, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

El Laberinto del Fauno

In the current movie El Laberinto del Fauno, set in Spain in 1944, a faun addresses someone with various laudatory titles (altesa and whatnot) and with the pronoun vos. Is this a throwback to the medieval use of vos as a formal pronoun? If so, is that common in fairy tales in Spain? Maybe that should be mentioned in the article.

—Ruakh_TALK 06:06, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

This "vos" is indeed a laudatory term for royalty and such, not the modern use in certain latinoamerican countries like here, in Costa Rica. Verbs would also be diferent: "vos sois" (formal, ancient, laudatory) vs. "vos sos" (informal modern use in Central America, Argentina, Uruguay...) --65.182.16.84 23:41, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Vuestra Merced/Usted

I'm wondering where someone picked up the source that indicates that "Vuestra merced" slowly, over time, morphed into "Usted". I am certain that "Usted" evolved from the Arabic title "Ustadh" (unfortunately the computer I'm working on leaves me unable to render this in Arabic), as a result of Moorish rule. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Leftwing Pinko (talk • contribs) 01:31, 5 February 2007 (UTC).

Whatever source was used, the Diccionario Usual (Usable Dictionary) of the Real Academía Española (Spanish Royal Academy) agrees with it: see the etymologies it gives for usted and vusted. (Well, it doesn't say whether it happened quickly or slowly; but it agrees that vuestra merced → vusted → usted, at least.) —Ruakh_TALK 04:14, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

The discussions I've seen render the Arabic word as استاذ (ustaadh). Although the RAE is obviously an important source, IMHO they are not necessarily the final authority on the history of the language. I'm curious if the theories of the Arabic origin might be true although I have no idea how seriously this theory is taken by mainstream scholars. See [1] --Mcorazao 04:42, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

P.S. Most of the discussions I have seen on this topic debate seem to imply that if Usted was borrowed from Arabic it must simply have been borrowed wholesale at one time and rapidly became common in the language. The fact that there is not a sudden rise to prominence of this word at an appropriate time during the Moorish occupation is pointed to as "proof" that this etymology is false. Personally this seems overly simplistic to me. It seems entirely plausible (if not likely) that a word like this could have existed (perhaps initially confined to the Mozarab community) and not had wide use because most people associated this with Islam. Then, as time passed people forgot the origin of the word and it became more accepted. This is essentially what happened with the word Ojala which is a known Islamic religious reference and yet today is seen by most as a Christian religious reference. As far as the documented evolution of "vuestra merced" I could not comment except to say that perhaps this is a case of convergent evolution. I.e. people were using both "vuestra merced" and "Ustaadh" and the two gradually morphed into a single word that more closely resembled "Ustaadh" (and in that case it would make sense that the RAE documented one side of the evolutionary tree over the other).

Anyway, just speculation on my part. --Mcorazao 14:24, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Removed "tu" less formal than "vos" mistake

I removed certain references to the use of "tu" in Central America. "Vos" and "tu" are both informal and none is more formal or less formal than the other, or used when talking to kids or the like. Nowdays some kids (like my own!) talk of "tu" because that's what they get form Discovery Kids in spanish here in Costa Rica. Some people speak of "tu" when talking with foreigners (Colombians, Mexicans, people form the US that learned spanish with "tu", etc.). I would only use "tu" to address people whose native language is not spanish and that get confused: otherwise I just can´t do it (I'm too much of a vos guy and I guess when we were kids we didn´t like people that talked of "tu" too much, specialy costarricans that lived in México or Spain and came speaking "mexican" or "castilian" and not "costarrican") I usualy talk to my little girl of "vos" and she responds with "tu", "tu que quierés papito" (what do you want dady) I also worked a lot with people from the rest of Central America and I´ve been plenty of times to Guatemala and El Salvador. There´s also a lot of nicaraguans here in Costa Rica. I guess people get confused when we play around with "tu" and "vos".cgl--65.182.16.84 23:54, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Don't confuse formal/informal with respect/familiarity (sometime called T-V distinction). Formal/informal contrasts the use in print or in a speech with a normal casual spoken form. Respect/familiarity contrasts the use with older people or strangers with the use with family and friends. Vos and tú are both familiar. In Argentina vos is both formal and informal and in Chile it's only informal. The Chilean formal and familiar form would be tú. HaŋaRoa (talk) 20:40, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Fsln02logo.jpg

Image:Fsln02logo.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 20:09, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I have NEVER heard vos used in Chiapas

Mexico is one country where vos straight up does not exist. I have travelled all over the country and have never once heard it. It supposedly exists in Chiapas but everyone I have ever met in Chiapas uses tu. Can anyone actually come up with documented proof of people using vos in Chiapas? If not Mexico should be recolored red on the map.

Mexico should be recolored, vos is certainly used in Chiapas, maybe it's more common near the frontier with Guatemala (Comitán, etc), check out this video made in Chiapas (mind the extensive use of profanity...) "La puteada chiapaneca" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.203.69.129 (talk) 06:16, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Is this really true??

Peru* Cuba*

• The use of vos is disappearing, in Cuba it is heard in some region in the east, in Peru, some elderly people still use vos, but it has gotten out of use among the younger population.

In Peru, some elderly people....???

In all my experience living 25 years in Peru I have never seen this. It actually is the contrary. SOME, (very few) young people who want to imitate argentinians football players or so use the word "vos" but it is frowned upon by elderly people. The use is not common though and it is seen with scorn by the majority. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.160.8.67 (talk) 00:45, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I removed the {{WikiProject Spain}} template

There are only three Spanish speaking countries where there is no voseo, and Spain is one of them. {{WikiProject Argentina}} would be much more appropriate.

200.111.44.186 (talk) 18:55, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I concur. The template was reinserted on November 2009 [2]. I removed it again today. HaŋaRoa (talk) 20:41, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Suggestion of a source for countries in which voseo is used

This source gives the following classification:

1. Places in which voseo is more common than tuteo: Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Chiapas, part of Tabasco.

1. Places in which tuteo and voseo compete: Chile, parts of Bolivia, Ecuador, the far north and extreme south of Peru, parts of Venezuela and Colombia, and the interior of eastern Cuba.

1. Places in which only tuteo is present: part of Bolivia, most of Peru, parts of Colombia and Venezuela, most of Mexico, Puerto Rico, the Dominican Republic, and most of Cuba.

Currently, the geographical information in the article is not well sourced. Perhaps someone can amend it to reflect what is given in this source. 128.32.238.145 (talk) 08:34, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Irregularities

Unlike tú, which has many irregular forms, the only verbs that are conjugated irregularly in their voseo forms in the indicative present are ser (vos sos), ir (vos vas), and haber (vos has...).

Is that really true? My impression is that the tu and vos forms are the same for ir and haber; that is, tu vas a mi casa, vos vas a mi casa; tu has comido, vos has comido.

I fixed it, revert if you need to. Sabrebattletank (talk) 03:05, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I meant based on the rule of replacing the final -R of the infinitive with an -S + a tilde, ser, ir, and haber would be *sés, *ís, and *habés.

All other verbs follow this rule (referring to the infinitive, not compared to the tú-form.).

HTH. Marxolang (talk) 01:03, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Correct, those three are the only irregular verbs. Also, I'm a native speaker from El Salvador and I sometimes use i for the affirmative imperative of ir. Ite para allá instead of andate para allá, but I wasn't able to find resources to suppoert my comment, which is actually true but criminally understudied. Even if I say it, it's considered rather vulgar, so probably still not worth mentioning.--Neqitan (talk) 04:42, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Chile

On the color map, Chile is marked as a country where "vos" is "predominant." But, at least in my experience, this is not the case, and "tu" is much more common there. I recently spent about a month and a half traveling through Chile, and the only time I heard anything related to "vos" used was as an implied pronoun in "como estai?" Other than that, "tu" seemed to be the exclusive form. I spoke with several Chileans about this, and they all told me that "vos" is not commonly used there, much less the "predominant" form. A couple of them told me that two or three generations ago it was used a lot more, but now only rarely. So I think the article and map should be changed. It seems that now-a-days in Chile "tu" is much more common that "vos." And "vos" is more a vestigial form now, used in phrases like "como estai?" 190.42.68.173 (talk) 17:15, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Anybody have a comment on this? The map should be changed unless someone can cite source stating that vos is "predominant" in chile. 190.42.102.175 (talk) 18:57, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I believe the article mentions that in Chile, the use of pronominal "vos" (pronounced as /voh/) is quite restricted, but that the use of verbal voseo is actually quite widepread in the spoken language. Marxolang (talk) 13:26, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm a Chilean, living and raised in that country, and I can assure you that the form "vos" is never used in the spoken Chilean Spanish, except when one is trying to imitate foreign people (Argentinean or Uruguayan), who actually use this spoken form. I don't know where did you get that "vos" is "quite restricted" in my country, for in truth is merely "not used" (well, at least if you don't count the part of "imitating").

Typo in the subjunctive table?

The last item in the Rio de la Plata column is "No te preocupés," with an accent mark on the last "e." But for consistency with the generalization stated in the text (as well as Academia website), it shouldn't have the accent right? ("No te preocupes.")

Vos

I'm not sure this article got it exactly right. Though it's important to emphasize that "vos" has variations across Latin American countries, from what I understand, the correct usage of "vos" is with the "eis" endings--comisteis, dormisteis, hablasteis. In fact, I believe the variations have their origin in this use. It may be worth considering another source, particularly this noteworthy one: http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltConsulta?TIPO_BUS=3&LEMA=vos .

I also take issue with the statement that Guatemala is a place where the predominant use is not "vos." I think this is incorrect, from experience. Men, for instance, never refer to one another in "tu," since it's a sign of snobbery and being gay (no joke), even at work or professional places. That said, "usted" is widely in use as well.

Please take this with a grain of salt, but it's worth mentioning.

-)

70.72.44.213 (talk) 22:01, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

70.72.44.213 (talk) 22:03, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

70.72.44.213 (talk) 22:38, 11 May 2012 (UTC)