Talk:Madhesh Identity in Nepal

Nepal: Tharuhat Vs Madhesh

'The Social structure of Madheshi community resembles more to the Indian states like UP and Bihar than any Nepalese society' this is because nepal and madhesh , and hence nepali and madheshi have different connotations

Bhulai Chaudhary Ex-General Secretary, Tharu Welfare Society Preamble: Nowadays, particularly on the issues≠ of Tarai and Madhesh, Tharu and Madheshi, people in the country are in confusion. If, in proper time, this confusion is not clarified, it may invite additional problems. Therefore, the objective of this article is to clarify such confusions. <copyvio removed> This article was posted in Telegraph http://www.telegraphnepal.com/news_det.php?news_id=189 unsigned comment added by Tharu activist (talk • contribs) 05:22, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Another article based on facts and research by Mr Subodh Singh —Preceding http://www.telegraphnepal.com/news_det.php?news_id=2474 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tharu activist (talk • contribs) 14:39, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

please"NEPALKO MADHESI SAMAJ" by deepak chaudhary; publisher ratna pustak bhandar. you can find in details about madheshi or terai origin people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.52.241.132 (talk) 12:28, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Mahadhesi?

hi everybody.well it may sound a little weird that once the neutrality of madhesay article had been questioned,it should have been considered about the neutrality of this article too before provokingly writing "suppression of movement by the government of nepal".it should have been well noted by the author that the government had no option but to shoot down those who defied curfew and posed a threat to religious and ethnice harmony as well as serios jeopardies to national arteries and international trade( remember nepal can maintain only 1 week of stock of petroleum products and is a net food importing country)

Can anyone shed any light on the term Mahadhesi?

It should go under section "People" under the article Madhesh because most of the people living in Madhesh are called Madhesis.

Please see that article.( This ARticle is not True>)

The word Madhise or Madhishe is derogatory term used to refer to inhabitants of Madhesh. Tharu are Madhesis, none of the historians can deny it (refer History of Nepal, any reliable source). And this seems complete recent politics, after the uprising of Madhesis.

Reality Is mentioned hereunder:

There are two coomunities in Terai region, one is madhesi who entered Nepal only after in 18th century in search of food and shelter. Other is Tharu community,an aboriginal people of nepal.Tharus have their own culture, language, traditions.only recenty, when DDT eradicated the Malaria, many madhesi entered low land of nepal fron Madhya- desh of INdia, which is now located in UP,Umbala, Bihar.So as hilly people also migrated in Tharu's Area and subjucated their lands. mtDNA results have shown that tharus have high frequency(0.8)of alfa -thal anti- maleria genes amongs tharu than non tharus and also proved that they're mongoloid. This results stronly supports the notion that Indeed the Tharus are only single community of that part of Nepal who are living since over the millenia.They mainly practiced buddism before Hinduised by Aarya Madhesi and hilly brahman and Kshatri. For further Information: please see the books of Arjun Gunratne, Kurt Mayer Or you can Found so many Facts and Proofs about tharus people on google site, when you log on about Tharu People. ( Note: Madhesi are trying to prove themselves as a indigenous people of Nepal , Which is not true, Only Tharus are only single Indigenous community who are living in terai since over the millenia.Tharus are not Madhesi, They are Indigenous People of that part of Nepal, Terai is not Madhesh, Madhesh is LOcated IN Indian Teritory, People Came from Madhya -Desh (madhesh) is popularly known as -Madhesi)

I support the above mentioned reality that Tharus are Indeed, a single community, living in malaria -infested terai forest since over the millenia. Indeed. They are not Madhesi but indigenous people of that part.Tharus have their own language, culture, traditions that vastly different than Maithali or Madhesi culture.Many Clever Madhesi and Hilly people subjucated their lands after Malaria eradication.They popularly known for their honesty, meekness. even among non tharus community. so that, Indeed , They are not Madhesi and above mentioned facts shows that Madhesi is those people who entered in low lands of Nepal only after the 18th century and malaria eradication from Madhaya -desh of Indian Territoty.

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Hello, I'm the one who is contributing to the article a lot lately. But still I'm not happy with the article. I think the true definition of Madhishi is still in question. I totally agree with your argument on excluding Tharus from Madhishi. Are Tharus only early settlers of Madhesh? We also should not forget that Janakpur and the Janaki Mandir are very ancient and they may prove that the Madhishis were also living in the eatern Madhesh way before 18th century. Aaniyo 15:30, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

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I know about Janaki Mandir, It is build by Tikamgad Ki Maharari(Queen), When she visited the calm place of Terai.Tikamgad is now in India. Later, This Temple became famous among hindu, thenafter, Maithali community migrate this place as a Purohit brahaman and setteled there.Even now maithali brahaman has been deputed as a purohit for among tharu community. This evidence stongly support the notion that Tharus deputed and sheltered Maithali Community in Terai. Because Most of Maithaly communities have their relatives in India. And They can not go beyond this reality. Thank You.

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A minority number of Rajbanshi, Dhimal, Danuwar, Jhangad, Dhanuk, Mushar, are the ancient castes of Terai. Who living in terai along with Tharus.They are also Indigenous people of terai. Because of majority of Tharus in 23 districts of Terai and Inner Terai are Popularly Known as THARUWAN (THARUHAT) even in these days among Indigeous and hilly community. Terai is not Madhesh. Madhesh term is derived from Madhaya- desh. People migrated from madhaya desh has started to use this term later.you can see the Tony hegan's book about nepal, Dr. hark Gurung's reseach book and many more authoritative book's about Nepal, You can not find the term Madhesh instead of Terai. You can read the book of Nepal's scholar Rewati raman khanal,In this book he has mentioned that Rajya laxmi devi had chased daljeet shah abroad Madhesh, and in 99 page of this book, He has cleary mentioned about the Terai Administration , So its proves that Terai and Madhesh are two different geographical region. Thank you.

Dr. Harka Gurung is pure hill nationality and he always saw madhesi people is indian.you can ask madhesi intellectual persons, all are negative from Dr. gurung. As i read terai word come from persian language .Dr. Gurung version help to convert madhesi into nepali. He is fellow of King Mahendra who always gave slogan one language, one dress.Pahade people have been used madheh when they come madhesh from hill. In madhesh Bidhesh,Kapilbastu and Tirhut historical state were present. SO its old, but terai words comes newly.During my field visit many tharu people accepted they are madhesi origin but their caste leader are doing politically. They couldnot emerge their poor condition.In india there is terai. In Japan, there is Terai, Ishikawa.Terai is not our word, some pahade nationalist bing this word to remove thr madhesi people identity.Hence Madhesh is the true word which represent madheshi people identity.It is within nepal.

Large copyrighted dump

• Some evidences on Tharu’s identity

• Terrenato L, • Shrestha S, • Dixit KA, • Luzzatto L, • Modiano G, • Morpurgo G, • Arese P. Department of Human Genetics, University of Sassari, Rome, Italy. The Terai region of Nepal has been known to be heavily malarious since remote times, and it has, therefore, been regarded as uninhabitable by most Nepalese people. The Tharu people, who have been living in the Terai for centuries, were reputed to have an innate resistance to malaria. Following successful control of malaria by the Nepal Malaria Eradication Organization (NMEO), a large and heterogeneous non-Tharu population now inhabits the Terai along with Tharus. By analysing NMEO records, we have found that the prevalence of cases of residual malaria is nearly seven times lower among Tharus compared to sympatric non-Tharus. This difference applies to Plasmodium vivax, which is now much more common, and to Plasmodium falciparum. We suggest that the basis for resistance to malaria in the Tharu people is a genetic factor yet to be identified. • Modiano G, • Morpurgo G, • Terrenato L, • Novelletto A, • Di Rienzo A, • Colombo B, • Purpura M, • Mariani M, • Santachiara-Benerecetti S, • Brega A, et al. Department of Biology, University of Rome, Tor Vergata, Italy. We have previously reported that the Tharu people of the Terai region in southern Nepal have an incidence of malaria about sevenfold lower than that of synpatric non-Tharu people. In order to find out whether this marked resistance against malaria has a genetic basis, we have now determined in these populations the prevalence of candidate protective genes and have performed in-vitro cultures of Plasmodium falciparum in both Tharu and non-Tharu red cells. We have found significant but relatively low and variable frequencies of beta-thal, beta S, G6PD (-), and Duffy (a-b-) in different parts of the Terai region. The average in-vitro rate of invasion and of parasite multiplication did not differ significantly in red cells from Tharus versus those from non-Tharu controls. By contrast, the frequency of alpha-thalassemia is uniformly high in Tharus, with the majority of them having the homozygous alpha-/alpha-genotype and an overall alpha-thal gene (alpha-) frequency of .8. We suggest that holoendemic malaria has caused preferential survival of subjects with alpha-thal and that this genetic factor has enabled the Tharus as a population to survive for centuries in a malaria-holoendemic area. From our data we estimate that the alpha-thal homozygous state decreases morbidity from malaria by about 10-fold. This is an example of selection evolution toward fixation of an otherwise abnormal gene. • Passarino G, • Semino O, • Pepe G, • Shrestha SL, • Modiano G, • Santachiara Benerecetti AS. ISMEC CNR, Cosenza Italy. Tharus--a population of Terai (a region with a severe malarial morbidity in the past)--can be subdivided into three main groups: Western, Central and Southern Tharus. They have usually been considered a Mongoloid population and this has been further substantiated by mtDNA findings on Central Tharus. Studies on the distribution of malaria-related genes have shown an extremely high frequency (0.8) of the alpha-thal gene among Tharus. In the present investigation mtDNA markers were studied in the same sample of Eastern Tharus previously examined for the alpha-thal gene. The findings were: 1. the same three features which confirmed the classification of Central Tharus as Mongoloids (i.e., the common occurrence of HpaI-1/HincII-1 and HaeII-5 morphs, and the lack of BamHI polymorphism) were also present in this sample. Since the only neighbouring population accessible to Tharus, until recently, has been Hindu (Caucasoids), this result strongly supports the notion that Tharus are indeed a single anthropological entity; 2. two statistically significant differences between Eastern and Central Tharus--namely, a much higher HaeII morph 5 frequency among Central Tharus, and the absence in the same group of the mutation at 15.487 bp (very common among Eastern Tharus)--together with the results on alpha-tal gene, suggested that Tharu subgroups underwent an effective reproductive isolation.

Tharus Tharus pervade all along the east-west lowland Terai belt as well as in the inner Terai valleys of Chitwan, Dang, Surkhet and Udaipur. They are considered the first native people of that part of Nepal. According to the regions of their inhabitation, each respective Tharu clan has its own ethnic identity, dialect and culture. Tharus have their own languages but the respective Tharu languages are thus influenced by Awadhi, Bhojpuri and Maithili languages, depending on the regions of their inhabitation. Because of their facial and physical features, they are considered Mongoloid. They mainly practice Buddhism.. Their main occupation is farming, and Tharus enjoy many similarities with the agro-based Newars of the Kathamandu Valley. (Traced from the article nationalities of Nepal)

Asian Arts | Exhibitions The Tharu of the Tarai by Kurt W. Meyer and Pamela Deuel

The exhibition organized by the Indigo Gallery in Kathmandu brings to the public's view for the first time the material culture of the Tharu, the indigenous population of Nepal's lowlands along the Indian border. For the last one hundred years peoples around the world have been fascinated by Nepal because of its magnificent mountains, the towering Himalayas. Closed off from the outside world by its potentates, this kingdom lived in secluded splendor until the 1950's, when its doors officially opened to the outside world. The isolation of the Tharu in the Tarai was even more complete: living in villages located in the malaria-infested jungles of the Gangetic plains, they rarely encountered outsiders. Over the millennia they developed a unique culture free from the influence of adjacent India, or from the mountain groups of Nepal. Only recently, when DDT eradicated the malaria, did the Tarai begin to attract settlers seeking to escape the harsh and little productive lands of their own ancestors.

We have spent the past four years exploring the material culture of the Tharu, ALL of the Tharu of Nepal. Seaching the Tarai for remote villages untouched by modern life, we have scoured its full 600 mile length, from the western edge to its eastern border. Our search has taken us to nearly 300 villages, where we have discovered a rich and varied mosaic of Tharu culture and folk art. The most striking aspect of the Tharu environment is the decorated walls, partitions and rice containers of the houses. For generations Kochila Tharu women of the eastern Tarai have transformed the verandahs and outer walls of their homes into colorful outdoor canvases dedicated to Lakshmi, the Hindu goddess of prosperity and fertility, at Tihar, the festival of lights.

The third day of Tihar is devoted to worshipping Lakshmi. According to Tharu legend, on this night she circles the earth on the back of an owl, inspecting homes to see that they are properly purified with rigorous cleaning and newly painted walls. At twilight, villagers burn small oil lights to attract her attention to their houses, fields and farmyards. If she is pleased, she pays a visit and grants the family prosperity throughout the coming year. While some of the patterns on these houses are simply decorative, others contain auspicious elements. Important in South Asian mythology, the peacock adorns more painted houses than any other bird. Sanskrit literature associates it with human happiness, passion and bliss: Ram and Sita delighted in the company of peacocks, and when Sita was abandoned by Ram, it is said that the peacocks ceased to dance. Many Tharu believe if they spot a peacock when they first step out of their home, they will be favored with good luck that day. Another beloved god in Nepal is the blue-skinned Krishna, whose feats of magical strength, prowess as a bewitching lover, and devout compassion are passed on in legend from generation to generation. In the western Tarai, Dangaura Tharu celebrate his birth each year with the creation of an ASTIMKI painting in the interior of the Dangura longhouse by the male elder.

An abstract outline of a human body contains drawings and symbols which tell the stories of Krishna's many deeds, including scenes from the Mahabaratha and the Ramayana. The family (or village) elder who paints the astimki is a farmer who has no education in the arts. Even today few can read or write, but that presents no barrier to passing down the knowledge of Krishna's feats from one generation to the next. These pictures show different episodes in Krishna's life: his birth, his marriage, life in the forest, the river and the fields. The legendary five Pandava brothers march across the top of the astimki, going to battle against the forces of evil, the 100 Kaurava cousins. To the side of the Astimki, sons try their hand at depicting elements of Krishna's life, preparing to carry the tradition along. Once the day of prayer is past, these visual offerings to Lakshmi and Krishna are ignored, scuffed or brushed against during the comings and goings of daily life. While much of this art is rooted in devotional activities, todays' artist seldom knows the significance of the designs, but still clings to the graphics of the elders, occasionally introducing contemporary designs such as a bus or airplane. When we ask about the meaning of the graphic and abstract designs, we are most often simply told by the artists: "It is the tradition."

This art is ephemeral, designed for a specific devotional purpose. The richness of the design, using only available materials - clay, mud, dung and grass - always astonishes us. It has been passed down from generation to generation within the rural family, usually - but by no means always - carried out by the women. There are no schools, no art colleges, no teachers who tell them what is "right" and what is "wrong" - it is for this reason that we call it ART WITHOUT ARTISTS

Is this truly "ART" in the western sense? It is not the inspiration of an individual and it has no commercial value: it is never considered to be the intellectual property of the artist who created it. The work is one moment in the continuum of time. The anonymous artist borrows from the elders, makes some changes, is free to improve on it - within the constraints set up by the culture, and this culture belongs to all.

Kurt W. Meyer and Pamela Deuel, Kathmandu, March 1997 all text and images © Kurt W. Meyer and Pamela Deuel

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The word "Madhesay" and its manufactured meaning is sole attempt, after the recent Madheshi movement, to use Wikipedia for bad propaganda. Even Google returns just 2 occurrences of "Madhesay", one Wikipedia itself, and another at a blog (which is presumably written by the same author, who invented it.) The word lacks any historical reality and reference, and its use should be discontinued at Wikipedia, and the article under word "Madhesay" should be removed.

Map request

Maha = big or great; Desh=country

so a madeshi or mahadeshi is someone from the big country, i.e. India. This seems related to Prithvi Narayan's calling Nepal a yam caught between two boulders (between the British in India and the Chinese in Tibet).

Whatever their exact history may be, most Nepalese in the Middle Hills consider Tharus to be indigenous to the Terai, whereas a madeshi is preceived as Indian residing in Nepal and thus someone whose loyalty is suspect. In some areas madeshis are actually immigrants from India. For example the bazaar town Gorahi in the Dang (inner Terai) valley is dominated by Hindi-speaking immigrants from India. However during the unification of Nepal in the 18th century Prithvi Narayan or his successors conquered a strip of land south of the Siwaliks that was culturally aligned with India. So there are quite a few people of Indian affinities living in Nepal, not because they moved there, but actually because the border was moved to include them.

Nepal's unifiers coveted and conquered the adjacent plains because they were empire-builders who wanted the largest possible territory, because it was agriculturally productive land that could be granted to loyal supporters without alienating other constituents in the more politically important Middle Hills, because it was useful as a buffer zone separating the Middle Hills from British India, and because it had a damp malarial zone about ten kilometers wide that could be used as a defensive perimeter to decimate and debilitate invading troops before the first military engagements. But the unifiers' core political constituency has always been upper-caste Hindus living in the Middle Hills. The Shah family and Ranas may have given lip service to serving all of Nepal's various ethnic groups, but when push came to shove, the country was run by and for hill Hindus, at the expense of all others including madeshis. 76.80.26.121 13:40, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Confusion of geography and politics

Isn't Madhesh basically about giving political franchise to those inhabitants of the Nepalese Terai who are racially, culturally and linguistically related to people on the Indian side of the border; people who were woefully neglected by the Shah regime and not very prominent in the recent civil war either?

If so, why not focus this article on the political question and link to the Terai article for a geographical tutorial. Likewise the Terai article could mention the Madhesh political movement in passing and link to this article.

It seems to me that one can understand and sympathise with this political movement without replacing every instance of the word "Terai" with "Madhesh" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by LADave (talk • contribs) 08:02, 12 May 2007 (UTC).

i fully agree with the former statement. having lived in nepal for 2 1/2 years dealing with administration and development, i did not once come across the term "madhesh". the plains along the indian border were referred to as terai and nothing else. gegraphically the plains continue into india but when a nepali says "terai", only the area within nepal is meant. there is also an "inner terai", lowlands seperated from the main terai by a first mountain range. interestingly there is no talk about "inner madhesh". the the terai initially was mostly malaria infested jungle, sparcely populated by tharu and maithili. it was only after the irradication of malaria in the 1960s that the plains attracted people from the hills and from neighbouring india. the population pressure from densly populated india understandingly has been high and always a matter of concern to the nepali. naturalization is hard to come by, which meant that people of indian background have been denied civil rights even in the second or third generation. it is most likely that these are the people that are called or call themselves "madheshi". it is conceivable that tharu and maithili joined ranks with them in their struggle for equal rights as they also have been poorly represented in nepal. perhaps some generations down the road one will be able to talk about "madhesh people", but until now no such people exist. it's purly political and should be treated as such. and once again: there is no region or geographical area of nepal officially called "madhesh".Sundar1 (talk) 13:30, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Madhesh vs. Terai and other POV

Various indigenous Terai people (mostly Tharu) are claiming that these two are different. The state of Nepal does not have a formal recognition of any of the two entities at the moment. None of the citations listed are from experts in the field. So, is it alright to call Terai as synonymous with Terai? Also, there is a lot of POV in the article. I have deleted some extreme ones such as Kirant people being called non-Nepali. Still, a lot needs to be done. Thank you.--Eukesh (talk) 22:34, 13 October 2008 (UTC)