Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Professional wrestling

WikiProject Professional Wrestling
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Usage of primary sources (WWE.com) for PPVs

Okay, so this is kinda related to the current TLC12 article, but applies to pretty much any recent WWE PPV article (I don't follow TNA PPV articles).Technically, "Wikipedia articles should be based mainly on reliable secondary sources". Using the TLC: Tables, Ladders & Chairs (2012) article in its current state, it is obvious to me how WWE.com (and not secondary sources) is definitely the most reliable source for the Event section (scheduled matches) and the infobox (basic event info). Yet, if we look at the Background section, you'll see that WWE.com is again used as a source to provide background info on the match. See Chairs match is used as a source multiple times throughout the background section. I feel that in this case, we should not use WWE.com and instead use secondary sources to cite the info. Firstly, WWE.com's "match previews" detailing the background will vanish once the match has actually taken place, to be replaced by a match report. If so, WWE.com will be unable to substantiate some of the claims being sourced. See Survivor Series Sheamus match. Secondly, secondary sources are readily available as coverage of WWE's TV/PPV programming where the background of the feuds take place. There are two solutions, either we stick to secondary sources like PWTorch for the background, or we use stuff like WebCite to take a screenshot of the page like one day before the PPV, so that we may preserve the source. What do you all think? Starship.paint (talk) 10:07, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Also, I happened to take a look at some of the 2012 WWE PPV articles while writing this. I looked at the previous PPVs up to Extreme Rules and they are in terrible shape in terms of sourcing and content. Starship.paint (talk) 10:07, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

• I am the main contributor to the TLC12 article. I used the WWE source initially because it was handy and gave a good overview of the background storylines of the main characters. My opinion for most articles is that using secondary sources is better than using primary sources (with plenty of exceptions, of course). There was a bit of confusion regarding the reliability of other sources (see above section) and so I was reluctant to use anything but WWE in writing the article. I have since added a few other sources I found, though there are plenty more. Although others may disagree, my opinion is that secondary sources should be the predominant type used to write the article and should only be supplemented or supported by primary sources. --Odie5533 (talk) 10:28, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

I know that you're new (to WP:PW) and I do not blame you for using WWE.com. I know that it's handy, but you should take one of the two precautions I've stated above to "protect" the WWE.com sources. Starship.paint (talk) 10:32, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

I went ahead and archived all the WWE urls using WebCite. That is very sneaky of WWE to erase the old preview article. A warning about this should probably be placed on the list of reliable professional wrestling sources. --Odie5533 (talk) 10:46, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Well done. Another thing about WWE is that they've in recent years undergone quite a few website changes... resulting in deadlinking, another reason why we should steer clear of them as a source. However, the pages you WebCited are probably still prone to change as the background of the PPV continues to change by WWE's ongoing weekly television shows. That is why I proposed earlier to wait until one or two (after the last SmackDown before TLC comes out on 24 Dec) days before the PPV to WebCite the articles. Starship.paint (talk) 11:05, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) For the background I think it's fine to have sources other than WWE (I think we can use a wayback machine to retrieve articles that have been deleted from their site, can't we?). For matches, however, I think we should only have WWE.com sources. – Richard BB 11:18, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) (Re: Starship.paint) Right now, the content of the article is based only on what is currently available at the WWE link at the time of the WebCite snapshot. So even if they update the preview before the match results are posted, the information that was cited will still be available in the WebCite snapshot. If someone adds content to the article from the preview post, they should check to be sure that it is in the WebCite snapshot. If it isn't, meaning WWE updated the preview, then they can just request a new WebCite snapshot of the same link. Doing this will add another snapshot to the drop-down box in the upper right corner of the archive link, so you can easily jump between different snapshots. And like you said, if we want to have the last update to the preview we should also take a snapshot soon before the PPV airs. --Odie5533 (talk) 11:24, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

@Richard, Wayback does not archive every website, and we cannot force them to archive any website. Once you tell it to, WebCite will screenshot and archive a website (provided the website is still up and is not a dead link). @Odie, very well then. Starship.paint (talk) 11:59, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Ah, I see. I must confess that I wasn't actually fully aware on how Wayback works. – Richard BB 12:12, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

• Starship.paint: Regarding using more secondary sources and archiving WWE ones, a user recently removed secondary sources I found for the article, replacing them with primary ones, and deleted one of the WebCite archives from the citations as well. --Odie5533 (talk) 06:59, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

In theory, WWE.com should only be used when we need an official word on something, such as a planned event. It should never be used for past event results, title information or much of the other general info it's currently used for. There are plenty of reliable sites that specialize in that sort of thing, without all the Javascript bells and whistles or archiving problems. But as long as WWE.com is popular, it'll keep being used. I guess I could replace a few somewhere instead of just complaining. InedibleHulk (talk) 16:47, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

I think you're right on calling out on that. In my opinion, this is clearly unacceptable. WWE.com should only be used for scheduled matches, not for past results. I've directed Jeffhardyred to this discussion. Starship.paint (talk) 18:30, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

WWE.com is just fine for results, title histories, background information, match description, and anything else. I don't, however, think that reliable secondary sources should be removed, as I agree about their importance. There's certainly no harm in keep both, though (in fact, I think it would be the best of both worlds). GaryColemanFan (talk) 15:37, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Robert Roode > Bobby Roode

Would anyone object to Robert Roode being moved to Bobby Roode? My rationale for this would be that Roode has reverted to performing as Bobby Roode for quite some time now and he has achieved his greatest success in this period. This move would allow more direct linking. In addition, "Bobby Roode" returns 892,000 Google results, compared to 554,000 for "Robert Roode".

This move does not require administrator intervention, so it could be moved by an editor if there are no objections.

(Also posted at Talk:Robert Roode) McPhail (talk) 18:58, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Sounds about right. Google results aren't the best indicator, but this shows he has wrestled for longer and in more places as Bobby than as Robert. Also currently. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:01, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. also Google News -> Bobby Roode -> 596 results, Robert Roode -> 5 results. Starship.paint (talk) 02:16, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback - I'll execute this move. McPhail (talk) 15:20, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Bearly Legal

Is there any policy, guideline or past discussion that would exclude a notable and well-documented wrestler from Wikipedia simply because he's a bear? If not, I think I may create my first article. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:39, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Nope. No policy against that. Wrestling bears covered in independent, reliable sources are certainly fair game. GaryColemanFan (talk) 05:45, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

OK, I've got a draft at User:InedibleHulk/sandbox. It doesn't suck, but it's not perfect. Any feedback would be appreciated. Disregard the External Links stuff about Mantaur, I used him as a template and will fix that later. If someone can find a solid birth and death date, that'd be great. I've found a 1959 article saying he's about eight and am speculating on his death, in light of his visit to the Humane Society after his friend ate that girl. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:41, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I've created the article. I figure there's not much point getting it perfect first, since this is Wikipedia and mistakes are constantly fixed. It's at Terrible Ted. I'm kind of proud. But not so proud to not listen to valid criticism or suggestions. I don't want schoolchildren writing reports on this guy to misinform their teachers. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:35, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Useful resources

These pages seem pretty helpful. Ongoing list of 2012 title holders and Final list of 2011 title holders. Starship.paint (talk) 23:58, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Is grantland.com a reliable source?

Oh god..

Came across a reference to [1]. Is this website reliable? Starship.paint (talk) 09:16, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

I honestly don't know, myself. On one hand, they claim to be apart of ESPN in their copyright notice, on the other hand, anyone can claim such a thing. I had never heard of them before tonight. I don't see any reason to call them reliable, personally. CRRaysHead90 | ^{Get Some!} 09:19, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

The editor-in-chief is Bill Simmons and it is an ESPN-owned website. The website is used around 150 times around Wikipedia on various topics since the site covers sports and popular culture. It's a fairly new website since it was launched in 2011, but there's no indication that the site has any issues where we couldn't cite the author of a particular news story. Regards, — Moe Epsilon 10:01, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

And that is why I'm not an expert on reliable sources. Thanks, Moe. CRRaysHead90 | ^{Get Some!} 20:49, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

No biggie. Sorry I haven't been around to contribute more to WP:PW. For neglecting the project, I'm self-imposing a penalty of 40 open hand slaps from the Big Show. Regards, — Moe Epsilon 22:13, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Moe! Starship.paint (talk) 22:30, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Hahahahahahaha. XD CRRaysHead90 | ^{Get Some!} 23:01, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

What type of source is acceptable?

What type of source is acceptable for professional wrestling? Please reply back.