Talk:National Rally

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Name

Why are we anglicizing the party's name into "National Front"? In English-language media, I've generally found that it is left as Front National. I just ran a quick Google check of the two (in which I typed "Front National" France and then "National Front" France), and came up with far more hits for "Front National". Funnyhat (talk) 01:32, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Fascist

I removed this accusation because in France, "fascist" has no serious sense. It is rather an insult. Barraki (talk) 23:58, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

sometimes insults fit —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.43.149.150 (talk) 17:06, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

a fascist is just a national socialist which takes care its own people rather than taking care people internationally..

nothing insulting.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.212.122.76 (talk) 08:46, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

"you are fucking up France"

For information, the IP is wrong, JonnyDr is right. Because it was not written "tu moques" but "tu niques". "Niquer" means exactly the same as "to fuck", and is just as vulgar. Barraki (talk) 11:56, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

False Accusations of 'Racism', 'Xenophobia' and 'Antisemitism'

Check the link:

http://www.freewebs.com/lepeninfo/defense.htm

National Front has among its members and supporters Black French and French Jews! FN is not a far right party! —Preceding unsigned comment added by DumnyPolak (talk • contribs) 23:48, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

And there are mischlinge and uncle toms. Their "jewish caucus" had one member and he's been dead for four years 70.53.139.123 (talk) 21:30, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Electoral system

I just wonder about the electoral system of France as I could not find any information on this. In 1986 the FN got 9.7% of the votes, and 35 Members in the National Assembly. Yet, with the same amount of votes two years later, the party for some reason did merely gain one Member. And with the 1993 election with 13.8% of the votes they did not get one single member. So how come around 15% of the voters not get represented in the National Assembly at all. At the same time parties that receive less votes than the FN seem to get even up to 30 Members. I just find it hard to see how this can happen in a democratic country, as it does not look remarkably democratic at all. Looking at elections the distribution of Members of National Assembly looks rather bizarre comparing it with percentage of votes. -TheG (talk) 20:07, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

The 1986 elections were the only legislative elections held under proportional representation, which is why the FN managed to secure 34 deputies in the assembly. Since then, to stop the FN from having deputies, these elections aren't proportional representation anymore, and I believe a party needs to get over 10% in a determined region or something so they can claim at least deputy. The number of deputies has little to do with overall percentage of votes as some parties with fewer overall votes can get more deputies since they have strongholds in some areas, whereas the FN has very few strongholds. Most small parties demand the proportional representation to be put back into effect, because the smaller parties have a larger disadvantage. Yes, not having the proportional is totally undemocratic, and it was taken away for undemocratic reasons : to hurt the FN. - Munin75 (talk) 00:02, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Incorrect statement

According to the article, "in 2005, Bruno Gollnisch cast doubt on the findings of the post-war tribunals and the official version of the Holocaust.[122]. Both received fines for these incidents.[123][124][125] "

The judgement was cancelled by the highest court, the court of cassation, on June 23, 2009. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.182.151.43 (talk) 22:05, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Copyediting of "sending back" quote

I started reading this today with the intention of possibly doing a GA review. I haven't decided whether to do the GA review, but if I don't, I figure I should probably note this anyway.

In a standardised pamphlet delivered to all French electors in the 1995 presidential election, Le Pen proposed the "sending back" of "three million non-Europeans" out of France by "humane and dignified means."

I have some concerns about the wording of this sentence: we generally do not speak of "sending back out of France". If we are sending someone back, it is implicit in that sentence that they are here. Given the full context of the article, it can be resolved by simply removing the words "out of France". I'd do it myself, but I figure it might be better to let the editors of the article rewrite this sentence eitehr by simply removing "out of France" or by redrafting it. —Tom Morris (talk) 15:56, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:National Front (France)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Lemurbaby (talk • message • contribs • count • logs • email) 11:49, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

• Please fix the following disambiguation links: 20 Minutes, Anti-Islamism, Law and order, New World Order, Vitrolles  Done
• In a few words, briefly explain what the Restauration Nationale is (to provide a tiny bit of context for those who don't know).  Done
• "However, an increased requirements on support by elected officials had been introduced for the election, which left both Le Pen and Gauchon unable to stand for the election." - I tweaked this sentence, but it's still a bit difficult to understand if the reader is not familiar with the notion that in France, a candidate needs to have the support of a certain number of elected officials. It would be good to reword it further. Lemurbaby (talk) 11:21, 5 September 2011 (UTC)  Done
• "the left-wing vote was scattered among exceptionally many leftist parties" - this reads a little unnaturally. It would be good to find another way to say this. Lemurbaby (talk) 11:21, 5 September 2011 (UTC)  Done
  • Instead; "Jospin had also been weakened due to the competition between an exceptional number of leftist parties." – Bellatores (t.) 23:37, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

1. B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

• Use en dash (–), not a regular dash (-) for number ranges (years, pages etc). Lemurbaby (talk) 11:21, 5 September 2011 (UTC)  Done
  • Found one error and corrected it. – Bellatores (t.) 11:17, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

1. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

• Citations are needed to support all statistics in the article (for example, in infobox for the number of FN seats, and in the election results section). Lemurbaby (talk) 11:21, 5 September 2011 (UTC)  Done
  • I have sourced all election results; the sources differ somewhat on some figures though, but nothing significant. – Bellatores (t.) 23:00, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
• I would encourage you to include archived urls for your citations, so future readers will be ensured the option of accessing the sources you used for further information. Lemurbaby (talk) 11:21, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

1. C. No original research:

2. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

3. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

4. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

5. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

• The images "200109 Jean-Marie Le Pen 191.jpg" and "200109 Présidentielles 2002 122.jpg" require the verified approval of the creators of the works. Lemurbaby (talk) 11:21, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
  • You have to explain this point further, including what you think should be done. – Bellatores (t.) 23:12, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

1. B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

2. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

Comments

• I will be reviewing this article over the next several days. Lemurbaby (talk) 11:49, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
• Congratulations on a beautifully written and well-researched article. I will be happy to award GA once the above issues have been addressed, and I hope you'll be willing to see this through the FA process as well - it should pass easily. Lemurbaby (talk) 11:21, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

"occasionally promoting historical revisionism, specifically related to the Second World War"...that's a rather roundabout and tepid way to refer to holocaust denial. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bclogston041 (talk • contribs) 05:40, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Reference problem

An anonymous editor complained about accuracy, and changed the language about LePen calling an issue a point of detail to indicate that LePen referred to gas chambers rather than the Holocaust in general. I reversed the edit, and decided to check the reference to see if the anon.ed. was right. The reference footnote shows "Shields", but there's no other identification that I can see. -- Jo3sampl (talk) 23:01, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

The Shields footnote refers to the book "Shields, James (2007). The extreme right in France: from Pétain to Le Pen. Routledge." You can find this book under the bibliography section. The specific reference refers to pages 306-308, but only page 306 is available online. Unfortunately, I won't have access to the physical book until a couple months. Nevertheless, I am pretty sure the issue can be found somewhere else. —Filippusson (t.) 09:38, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Google Book Search shows that the reference is used properly. -- Jo3sampl (talk) 12:18, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Actually he did apparently say it about the gas chambers in 1987, not the Holocaust.[1] The Holocaust "detail" issue seems to stem from a 2005-interview, in which he apparently did say the Holocaust, only to later qualify/retract his statement, claiming that he really meant the gas chambers.[2] —Filippusson (t.) 17:11, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

the word 'nationalist'?

This is an editing request: can we replace the opening words with "far-right political party" and omit some of the free dealing usages of the word 'nationalist' in the article?

I know, we should be neutral and don't want to be biased against them, but the far right keeps on giving their anti-immigrant nonsense a sincere face by calling them 'nationalist'. One could make the argument that their economic protectionism makes them nationalist, but I think De Gaulle himself would realize that their usage of the word is a rhetorical device.

Also, it might be a wee bit offensive to conflate 'nationalism' with what the National Front is openly pushing. It would be like calling the Golden Dawn 'nationalist', despite the words numerous connection with national liberation struggles and left-wing politics.

I'm not trying to start up a philosophical debate about whether or not their nationalist or not, I just think we should probably replace the opening words with "Far-right political party" and use the word 'nationalist' much less loosely in the article. I don't think wikipedia should normalize those types of views with a respectable name like 'nationalism', and it might just be objectively erroneous to do so. I hope I can get a response! --66.233.55.145 (talk) 15:30, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Actually, "nationalism" isn't at all a respected name, at least not in Europe. "Patriotism" would be the respectable term. I realize that nationalism USED to be a left wing ideology, since the French revolution, and amongst left wing movements of national liberation, but today it's also associated to these "far right" parties, whom, whether you want it or not, are nationalist. Otherwise, "far right" to me doesn't mean anything anymore because it seems all you need to be called "far right" is to be anti-immigration, it thus has nothing much to do with economic policy or anything else. Parties going from ultra-libertarian (like Geert Wilder's party) to protectionist (like the National Front) are all called far right by the media. But apart from (rightful) criticism of massive immigration they don't have much else in common. De Gaulle would be considered "far right" if he were alive today, as would the late communist leader Georges Marchais, both very critical of immigration.--Munin75 (talk) 16:03, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

To the original poster, do you even know that "right" and "left" refer to economic policies? The Front National isn't remotely "far right", it is actually "far left", though non-nationalist leftists often abuse the term as a way to insult nationalist and anti-immigration parties they don't like. It makes them look foolish and is a 100% totally inaccurate term, but they insist on abusing the "far right" label for (generally left-wing) parties that they don't like.

To do so is thoroughly unencyclopaedic, and since Wikipedia is an online encylopaedia, abuse of the "far right" label should absolutely NOT be allowed. 59.167.194.37 (talk) 07:50, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

I think in Europe communists are far left and anything else outside the mainstream is just deemed far right. That doesnt make much sense but thats how it is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.95.129.245 (talk) 04:37, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

It is incredibly clear that 66.233.55.145|66.233.55.145 is of a far left political back ground and that is apparent from his "anti immigrant" comments.

When someone demonstrates their personal stake in an issue, should they be allowed to continue to contribute to that page, knowing their motives?

--Savakk (talk) 04:12, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Ideology needs to be cleared up

It says it right wing socially and left wing economically but the box just says far right. Also, what makes it far right? That should be listed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.95.129.245 (talk) 04:33, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

What makes them far right?

I don't really understand the definition for far right on Wiki...

as every European political party that is even remotely anti-globalization/massive immigration is labeled as far right on Wikipedia...

the platform of the National Front is nothing like that of the Golden Dawn, or the Swedish Democrats, or even the BNP in Europe.

Marine Le Pen would be seen as a feminist in America.

can someone explain to me how/who decides what qualifies as far right?

--Savakk (talk) 04:11, 8 January 2013 (UTC)