Talk:Mail-order bride

Summary of controversy

I'm providing a Summary. On this page we're trying to decide whether to remove or keep two sections. The first is Demographics, which suggests a relationship exists between the gender gap in Russia and the mail-order bride phenomenon. The references to HIV and alcoholism also suggest a correlation between these issues and mail-order brides. The CIA Factbook does not serve as a reference as it does not discuss or establish any relationship between mail-order brides and demographics, alcoholism, HIV or anything else. As yet, no-one has provided any other source that supports a cause-effect relationship, so the section is original research. We're voting on whether the entire Demographics section should be deleted.

The other section is Personal anti-fraud measures. We're voting on whether it should be deleted. Some editors think it's inappropriate since Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a "How-to" guide.

Please help by voting on this matter! Click here to get to the voting section. --The Famous Movie Director 00:00, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Poll on edits by Michaellovesnyc (talk · contribs)

Statements

• Statement by kaiwen1 (talk · contribs): The 'Demographics section is speculation and POV. It suggests a relationship exists between the gender gap in Russia and the mail-order bride phenomenon. No research supports this conclusion. (Much larger gender gaps exist in African countries that have no mail-order brides.) The references to HIV and alcoholism also suggest a correlation between these issues and mail-order brides. The CIA Factbook does not serve as a reference as it does not discuss or establish any relationship between mail-order brides and demographics, alcoholism, HIV or anything else. The entire Demographics section should be deleted. Personal anti-fraud measures should also be removed. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a "How-to" guide. Gavin 17:33, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Comment by Thoumsin (talk · contribs): The gender gap in Russia is used by agency for promote own business. Demographics statistic show that from birth to around 45 year old, you have no gender gap. Only for older people, you can find more women that men. These older women are not really "material" used by MOB business. The main cause of these gender gap is the life time in Russia : around 58 year old for men and 73 year old for women.

- Simply take a look at the graph at : http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Forum/index.php?topic=1094.msg26767#msg26767

- Or follow the several statistical link at : http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Forum/index.php?topic=1094.msg26793#msg26793

- Or a example about the "city of bride" Tver : http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Forum/index.php?topic=1094.msg26797#msg26797

In short, the gender gap is not related to MOB business, it is a myth !!! Demographics data are only good when analysed deeply.

• • • michaellovesnyc - You are using statistics that some guy made up on a chatroom. You can't even see any numbers on that graph because it is intentionally confusing. And they point to dead links so whats the point anyway? I am getting my FACTS from the CIA and Time Almanac as well as my own personal experience. You can not possibly believe some made up numbers over the CIA. Are you telling me the CIA and the Mail Order Agencies are involved in some conspirtacy ? This is the final straw; you people just want to lie and do not care about facts. That is what this whole debate is about; lies versus facts and no amount of facts will chane your opinion; you can always find some chatroom discussion to dispute any authoritative source to "prove" your point. I have been in Russia and I know there are many more women than men. In one city called Penza in the South of Russia, there were 100 women for every man. The CIA and Time back this up with numbers. Just like the lie about the lack of african mail order brides, you have your bias against mail order brides and that is it regardless of truth. In fact; I EXCLUDED the elder population because some men would not want to marry them, but a lot of older men wouyld. If I included those numbers, the difference would be even greater: FROM CIA:

RUSSIA 0-14 years: 14.2% (male 10,441,151/female 9,921,102) 15-64 years: 71.3% (male 49,271,698/female 52,679,463) 65 years and over: 14.4% (male 6,500,814/female 14,079,312) (2006 est.) More than 10 Million more women than men

UKRAINE 0-14 years: 14.1% (male 3,377,868/female 3,203,738) 15-64 years: 69.3% (male 15,559,998/female 16,831,486) 65 years and over: 16.6% (male 2,635,651/female 5,102,075) (2006 est.) About 4 Million More women than men

This does not even include all the other FSU states that have more women than men So we are talking 14-15 million more women than men in these countries; about 10 % of the FSU population or about 5 % of the U.S. population.

If anything, my demographics UNDERSTATED the number of women. I exclided over 64 and excluded all the other FSU countries. If your chatrooms can be used as a source, maybe I should start using the agency sites as a source. I think they are more accurate than a chatroom.

Reply by Thoumsin (talk · contribs):

- First, it is not a chatroom but a forum... and the guy who have post the graph and link was myself

- The graph is generated by the site of the "US Census Bureau"... for 2006, take a look at http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/ipc/idbpyry.pl?cty=RS&maxp=6554445&maxa=100&ymax=300&yr=2006&.submit=Submit+Query ... generate yourself a graph at http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/idbpyr.html ... Since it is a official site of the US gourverment who is specialised in statistical data, it seem that data are more reliable that these from the CIA!!!

- For the links, they have change since the post but it direct you to the "statistic commitee of Ukraine", who is the Ukrainian census. For a age pyramide from the last census ( 2001 ), http://www.ukrcensus.gov.ua/g/d2_2001.gif ... For Russia, the age pyramide is from the census of 2002, take a look at http://www.perepis2002.ru/content.html?id=11&docid=10715289081461 . The gray border is when you have more of one gender that the other. Until around 20 year, you have more men that women, so why you find so much young lady in MOB agency since they have enough male. Between 20 and 35 year old, you have around the same number on both side. Only around 45 year old, the differece become very big. Browse MOB business and you will not find a lot of these older women, they are a minority.

-You say that you have go to russia... Great. About myself, i was owner of a MOB agengy in 1997 and 2005. I have use the same misinterpreted data that you use for attract customer. I was married with a russian woman during 5 year, my actual girlfriend is Ukrainian. I have make several trip to Belarus, Moldova, Ukraine and Russia. So, myself, i know from what i speak too.

- About Penza, download the official data by oblast at http://www.perepis2002.ru/ct/doc/02-02_new.zip , it is a xls ( excel ) file. Check for the Penza oblast and you will see that your "100 women for every men" is a illusion ( i hope that you can read russian ). I have just find some english data, at http://www.perepis2002.ru/ct/doc/English/1-8.xls , scroll down to Penza and you will see that in 2002, you have 433218 males in age of working against 431683 females in age of working. Seem that these regio ( oblast ) have not enough women. Of course, if you look to women over the age of working, you have a little more that 100000 men to short. For people who wish marry a "babouska", Penza is the perfect place! These data are real data...

Take a look at the top of the table: Russian federation

- male under working age : 13452030

- female under working age : 12875253

ratio female/male: 95.71%

- male working age : 44812058

- female working age : 44129511

ratio female/male: 98.47%

- male over working age: 9280679

- female over working age: 20497305

ratio female/male : 220.85%

Since mail order bride are mainly in the categorie of "working age", the shortage of male don't exist... the real situation is the reverse. You can disagree but i don't see the logic in this. They are census number from US, Ukraine, and Russia. All other organisation ( CIA ) use the data from these census. These other organisation use only a part of the data and don't show all in the detail. Ex-USSR is not short in men but short in men who can be good marriage material ( alcohol, no work, drugs, lack of parental responsability, etc )

The real reason why ex-USSR women seek a foreign husband is not demographic. But more economical/social : a better life and a better husband. Of course, the demographic data can have a light influence since few women wish become widow due to the low life span of men in ex-USSR... In any case, some studies have show that you have around 150000 women in all the MOB agency who are from ex-USSR... a very little part of the population... They are young and sexy, seek a better future... some middle age women with children, a seeking too due to the fact that a Russian men don't accept easily women with already children.

So, i have give you fact, link to census site ( official data ). The data from the CIA fact are only a bad resume of the data from these census. They don't show all the dynamics of the population and the range 15-64 year old is irrelated to the thema ( MOB ). A range from 18 to 45 year old will be perfect since it represent around 95% of the MOB ( women ) find in agency.

PS: These chatroom ( forum ) can be a great source of information... you will find men seeking russian women, men already married with russian women, owner of marriage agency, men already divorced, russian women, etc... these forum is fully related to the MOB subject and ex-USSR ( but they don't like the term MOB )

• • • • Reply by michaellovesnyc:

1) Facts do not matter to you and you will distort them no matter what. First it is ILLEGAL to marry a girl under 15 so to include them in the ratios is absurd. Even to marry a girl under 25 is a big risk. The proper age to consider is between 25-34. You have to look at women of MARRYING AGE; and I am 44 so do not say that 44 is "old". And I did not and I NEVER claimed that deomgraphics was the ONLY factor did I? And if you believe that non-Russian women don't marry to improve their economic situation, then you need to wake up. I was also married to a sneaky lying Russian and I also have a MOB so your "expertise" does not impress me.

2) USING YOUR OWN NUMBERS (From the so-called International Data Base; whatever that is):

RUSSIA Total Men Women

25- 29 10,926,167 5,448,039 5,478,128 = 30,000 More Women 30- 34 10,298,566 5,119,877 5,178,689 = 60,000 More Women

Almost 100,000 more women in Russia between 25-34; the prime marrying age and 100,000 more if you go higher; MOST men on the tours are older, in their 50's and 60's, and these women would be great for them. So in addition to racism and sexism, we can add ageism to your list of traits.

3) YOUR Penza statistics are 14 years old; the CIA is up to date.

4) Between 1989 and 1992 USING YOUR 14 year old statistics; in the working ages, there were 3 million less Russian men and 682,000 less Russian women; if we extrapolate until 2006, there would be an enormous number of women over men. If these numbers duplicated then there would be 2.5 million more women than men in working ages today. Russia Males and females 1989 83,746,353 2002 88,941,569 Males 1989 43,440,058 2002 44,812,058 Females 1989 40,306,295 2002 44,129,511

Changes Males (3,133,763.00) Females (682,547.00)

5) These are YOUR own numbers which prove my point and discrediting the CIA over some so-called International Data Base is absurd. The CIA is certainly more authoritative and up to date.

6) From personal experience; In St. Petersburg I would estimate there were 50 % more women than men, Moscow was more even but still more women than men maybe 45%M-55%F, Penza was 40%M-60%F if that. The first night I was in Russia I slept with two women and we spent 3 nights in bed together. I knew one guy who said he had so much sex that his penis hurt.

7) You also have to think of quality as well. There are no "BBW" in Russia; that is very important. And I don't care what you say, Russian men have serious alcohol problems. They drink vodka like it was water. Russian men routinely beat their women. The quality of women in Russia is far superior than the garbage in this country and the quality and superiority of American men is well known and unquestionable.

• • • • Last Reply by Thoumsin (talk · contribs):

1) For the ratio, i use women and men in the working age ! For the rest, i almost agree with you...

2) Yes, men seeking Russian Bride are older but usually, they seek younger women. The problem is that Russian women marry very early and have children very early. From your reference age ( 25-34 year old ), a lot of women have already one child from previous marriage. This make it difficult for them to find a local men but several foreign men in the older age have already grow up child and are not ready to start again a parental function.

3) The more ridiculous statement. How can be the number of the CIA more accurate that these of the Russian census. Do you know what logistic and personal is needed for make a census! Never the CIA have make a census in other country, they use data from other. The last Russian census was in 2002, the next one is planned for 2012. All is based on the 2002 census make by Russian authorithy.

4) Again a strange method to use statistic. It is in the high section of the working age that men are not so much. If you like pronostic, take a look at table make by the US census at http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/ipc/idbpyrs.pl?cty=RS&out=s&ymax=250 . You can see that the difference are more in the older age. That with time, the pyramide become more inversed ( due to the lower birth rate in Russia ). In 2050, you will not have difference between sex until a age around 60 year old.

5) Why? Have the CIA a "army" who visit each country and count each people on the earth. The main function of the CIA is analyse extern information ( and verify that they are reliable ). Can you imagine the money needed, the personel needed and the time needed for the CIA to collect themself these information. Sorry but in all my live, i have never see a CIA agent at my door, asking information over my age, sex, language, composition of family, and more. Only my own gouvernement make this all the few years and CIA collect these public information.

6) Your personal experience? Do you have count women and men in St Petersburg and Moscow ? I don't think ! Maybe your regard was fixed on the sexy cute Russian women and you have forget see all the men around you!

And seriously, what have to make your sexual performance in Russia with the demographic question ?

7) Quality of women is not something to discuss. What you find a attractive lady can be horrible for a other people. I can assure you that a Turkish men will find attractif a fat American woman. In some culture, a fat women is sign of good mother. Usualy, guy seek Russian women for flee the feminist one of our western country. They think that they will find a submisive wife in ex-USSR. And of course, it is very bad know the russian character that find this!

I will not more argue here. I have give the info, i have give the links and i will change nothing to the article itself. The author of the article is free to use the info or ignore it. I have post in the talk section only in the goal to give information.

• Statement by Michaellovesnyc (talk · contribs):

• Statement by Michaellovesnyc: I disagree with this poll. I am new to wikipedia and this kaiwann may have hordes of friends here. But here is my argument and let us see if honesty, love and truth wins out.

1. Kaiwen's comment that the "demographics is speculation" is ridiculous and dishonest on its face. As Mark Twain said "Facts are stubborn things". It is a fact that there are millions more women than men in Russia and Ukraine. This is not speculation, it is a fact. This can be seen in the CIA fact book and other sources. How could it not be relevent in this discussion? Whenever there is an imbalance of men and women, love will find a way to get them together. And any Russian woman will testify that the Russian men drink too much and the CIA fact book (and many other sources) back me up on this. Alcohlism, violence and AIDs are primary reasons why there are so many more women than men. Sorry if you don't like it but facts are stubborn things !

2. Kaiwan also is lying or being reckless about African mail order brides; see http://www.africanprincess.com/. This proves beyond any doubt that he is dishonest or reckless. It took me exactly 3 seconds to find an African mail order bride web site. There are 3 million hits when I did a simple google search using those terms. If he is not dishonest, then certainly he is reckless in making such an absurd claim.

3. Kaiwen is also dishonest because he knows I deleted the anti fraud comments which I do believe were fair but took them out anyway. However, they found their way back in there somehow with all these reverts. I did take them out though.

4. If POV is to be taken out then lets take out all the stuff about how these foreigners are only looking to marry to improve their socio-economic status. It is racist and sexist. Why not say this about all women then? Would that be fair and is it not the perception that some people have? Is that not speculation??

Michael, your argument should focus on the validity of your edits, not whether Kaiwen is "lying". Anyway, let me clarify something: though it is a fact that there are more women than men in Russia, claiming without evidence that this is a cause of mail-order-brides is speculation. That is the distinction. "Whenever there is an imbalance of men and women, love will find a way to get them together" is absurdly inappropriate and not a supporting argument in any way. --The Famous Movie Director 05:17, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Kaiwen, You have a personal agenda that you are pushing and I have caught you in lie after lie. You cannot deny this. You have a racist and sexist agenda. It is not my FACTS that are inappropriate but your dishonesty. You argued, NOT ME, that there were no African mail order brides and I proved that there are 3 million web hits on the topic. It is quite evident that an imbalance of men and women will create a migration. In fact, mail order brides in America started out in such a way originally. I can, if you want, add more language to 'prove' this. But you are not really concerned about the truth anyway as the African mail order bride incident demonstrates. In fact, to show you up, I will make a point to fully demonstrate my facts. It is clearly self evident to anyone, but I will go one step further so you may connect the logical dots that anyone else would be able to do.

Also I do not see any purpose or validty putting in a section comparing it to other dating services; whats the point of this section?

I just added a picture of my hot mail-order bride... comments?

Only 3 of us look at this page????

OK so this poll isnt working too good; we got Kaiwen and 2 of his friends to oppose me; I took the anti fraud stuff out and wiki took out the picture of my beautiful mail order bride; actually i just dated her but didnt marry

• Its time to end this poll and debate. These guys are blatantly lying ("No African Mail order brides", "I said that demographics plays the only role", American women do not marry to improve their economic status, etc...), distorting statistics (Using age group of under 15 and excluding older women from analysis) and relying on questionable sources ("International Database" and chatroom discussions instead of CIA and Time Almanac and using numbers from 14 years ago). I can't stand liars. Never mind the poll. This discussion and my additional research to refute these lies proved to me and any fair minded person that my information is accurate and honest and no amount of factual evidence will change these peoples minds. I have provided a ton of statistical evidence, articles regarding the history of migration trends and my own personal observations. These people have supplied racist, sexist and ageist sterotypes backed up with 14 year old data, chatroom discussions, questionable sources, and blatant lies. Not once have they retracted or admitted to any one of their lies or admitted to using obsolete information. Worst of all, they will not confront their own racist, sexist and ageist agenda. And just one more piece of evidence on the mountain of facts that I have added, I added a USCIS quote where the women agree with my comments.*

- Comment by Thoumsin (talk · contribs): So, we are liars, racist, sexist, ageist! What a close mind we find here!

The questionable sources ( Internatinal Database ) are from the US goverment, from the Russian goverment and from the Ukrainian goverment. Numbers are from 2002 for Russia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census#Russia.2FUSSR ) and 2001 for Ukraine ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census#Ukraine ), date from the last census. Numbers from the CIA Hanbook are no wrong, they are identical to these of the census but they are limited to the range age 15-64 year old who don't represent the age range from bride of Russia :

ref USCIS : http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/aboutus/repsstudies/Mobappa.htm "For the 1,700 Soviet women listed currently by Cherry Blossoms, just 8 percent are under 20, 23 percent between 21 and 25, 25 percent between 26 and 30, 20 percent from 31 to 35, 14 percent from 36 to 40, 7 percent aged 41 to 45, and 3 percent over 45."

So, it seem that the right age range to use is 18 to 45 year old. The CIA Hanbook, without be wrong, cannot show data for these age range. So, the use of the detailed data from census are needed.

You treat us of liar but our reference are at the origin of all demographic data. Your data are not wrong, simply not detailed enough and don't show the age range from the Mail Order Bride. My only agenda is to reveal the true and complet information but it hurt you because it go again your statement that "Demographics play a large role in the mail-order bride phenomenon".

About your CIA hanbook, the CIA only treat data from several source and compile it in the hanbook. At http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/docs/contributor_copyright.html , you can read : "Information is provided by Antarctic Information Program (National Science Foundation), Bureau of the Census..." . So, it prove that the CIA use our "questionable sources" ( census ).

I really hope that some wiki administrator will remove the Demographics section who is based on a myth and limited analyse of data.

Demographics

Look, it doesn't matter whether there are more women than men in Russia or not. We are not arguing about that, and we never were. What is important is whether this is a cause for the number of mail-order brides. That's all! Cause and effect! X leads to Y! We either find a reference that says that, or remove the demographics section! Do you understand? --The Famous Movie Director 23:36, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Comment by Thoumsin (talk · contribs): Why not change the "Demographics" by "why the Russian women are looking for husbands abroad?" followed by something like :

"The answer is: they want to have good husbands. Russian men just can't make good husbands. Russian men are nice but Russian traditions of family life are not. When one grows up in a society, he acts according its rules and traditions. It's not because he is bad, it's just natural. You can't live in a society and be free of its rules and customs.

The objective reasons why Russians can't make good husbands are alcohol http://english.pravda.ru/print/society/family/4388-alcoholism-0 , abuse http://english.pravda.ru/print/society/family/21-03-2006/77617-violence-0 , and their poor health conditions http://www.cdi.org/russia/271-21.cfm . All have their roots in the society life. Women of 18 years old have no problems with finding appropriate partners of their age, and most of them do. The problems start later. The society and life conditions push men towards alcohol addiction, which cause in its turn problems with health. There are, of course, men who are healthy and take good care of their families, but they usually get married early and stay married.

There is also such a reason as demographic disproportion between men and women. Women outnumber men, and though this difference is not really huge (3-7% according to different issues), it gives a big absolute number of lonely women, who have zero chances to find a life partner. The demographic disproportion also does not take place in the age group 18-25 years old, and starts from the age of 30 and up http://www.perepis2002.ru/ct/doc/English/1-8.xls .

The statement that all Russian women would be happy to escape Russia for the better life on the West is also grossly exaggerated. As far as know, dating agencies have a permanent but limited flow of new applicants. Many women sign with a few agencies. According estimations, it's not more than 100 000 women who are featured by different agencies, including Russian local marriage agencies. Some of the women have already got married, gave up their search or found a partner in Russia.

The majority of single women don't consider finding a husband abroad as an option. Even if they can't find a partner in their homeland, they would never leave Russia. Many women who signed up with agencies, do not perform an intensive search and have this way only as one of options. It's particularly true towards young women under 25 years old.

Population of Russia is about 150 million people with 77-80 millions women. Thus, the share of women trying to find a foreign husband is not more than 0.13% of the total number, and only about 0.5% of the number of single women. As I already said, for a big part of them signing with agencies is just a try, and they do not consider this opportunity as a real option."

=> Only a project of text, more moderated and more neutral. Can be changed and certainly add more link to source

Vote

Do you vote to Remove or Keep the disputed material?

• Remove. Gavin 17:33, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
• Keep the truthful demographics and stop ignorant racist and sexist sterotypes. Michaellovesnyc
• Remove. --The Famous Movie Director 05:17, 22 May 2006
• Remove the personal anti-fraud Just my opinion -- I'm sorry that the author had a bad experience. That doesn't mean everybody should be advised to go to such extremes. As for the demographics, I'm a bit confused about what is being voted on. I will say that it is true that former USSR countries have an excess of women. And I don't think the African counterexample carries much weight, because men are of course going to be reluctant to look in a place with such an enormous HIV rate. -- William Jockusch

(UTC)

• Modify the demographics Not true that former USSR have an excess of women in the marriage range find in the MOB ( Mail Order Brides ) agency. Thoumsin (talk · contribs)
• Keep. Redrum48 (talk · contribs)

Vote to prohibit anonymous edits

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Problems of Accuracy and Intent

This article seems to reflect an entirely opinion-based intepretation of mail order brides. None of the statements seem to be documentable, and there is something vaguely racist about some of its assertions, i.e. that East Asian brides are "ordered" by recent Asian imigrants who "for cultural reasons" cannot find a bride, and it downplays the significance of the mail order bride phenomenon stemming from women in Eastern Europe which is the fastest-growing and most endemic group in North America. In addition, whoever wrote this article has apparently not conducted a serious study of mail order brides making this article a potentially unreliable and suspicious source of "facts." I would recommend that it be stricken and that someone else propose a serious article on mail order brides. It is interesting enough a topic that a significant number of people might read it, making the current article insufficient as a source of information.

The term "mail-order bride" itself is highly pejorative, used by bigots to stereotype people. I doubt that this article is redeemable at all. I think it should be a candidate for deletion.

Unfortunately, while the term itself has its (not insubstantial) faults, there isn't a suitable term that's neutral and descriptive without also being hopelessly generic. Even those who are involved with the process (selling travel, addresses and the like) are forced to use the term at times just to distinguish this from the usual domestic matchmaking agencies who claim to find "companions", "introductions" and the like. --carlb 05:33, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I've heard the term "International Dating" used. Although, I personally think the term "Mail-order bride" is best, despite the negative connotation it can have.

24.45.47.102 15:23, 7 March 2006 (UTC) There is a strong attempt here by feminists to insist on lying. For example,they even deleted that IMBRA has been STOPPED by a Federal Court restraining order; this is a fact that they are trying to hide. They edit this article and state that American men are abusers WITHOUT any supporting documentation or facts; unless AMERICAN men are MORE abusive than foreign men, this is not an honest fact that should be posted here. This is supposed to be FACT BASED, not opinion based 24.45.47.102 15:23, 7 March 2006 (UTC) michaellovesnyc 24.45.47.102 15:23, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

POV problems

Well, it's too bad that "mail order bride" is the encompassing moniker for any relationship between a woman from a second- or third-world country and a man from a developed country---but, alas, it is. I am married to a woman from such a country. The reputation of such unions is problematic, but there's a "cover for every kettle" as one homily goes. Ours is not a fairy-tale union at all; it is but another union among many. After a couple has met online across the miles and the waters, that couple is on their own in the same way as every other couple. (Egad! USA-USA couplings are as fraught with failure as any.) Perhaps it's also a case of getting what you need, as opposed necessarily to what you want. As a guy who's never really had difficulty attracting women generally, it is nevertheless true that in the USA I would find it difficult at middle age to find a woman who'd accept me . . . young enough to start a family. The Western attitude of acceptance with respect to larger age differences is simply not extant, practically. As for machiavellian motives on either side of the coupling, the current visa process---fiancée or spousal---is only just shy of a bona fide ordeal I'd not wish on anybody . . . and any couple who's made it through that gauntlet has probably demonstrated much more than a soupçon of compatibility. ---PLK

Certainly not neutral (or factual) in some cases. for instance, "Once they are married and often before they are even settled into their new lives they are beaten by their husbands." states that EVERY SINGLE ONE is beaten by her husband, which I refuse to believe without convincing evidence. The actual percentage that suffer some type of domestic abuse is unknown, but there are documented cases of the "mail order bride" falsely claiming abuse to get a divorce while retaining the right to remain in the country. Of course, the number of reported incidents is almost certainly lower than the actual. Also, I've noticed that articles showing statistics on abuse of "mail order brides" almost invariably fail to show the normal abuse statistics for both the area of origin and the area of the new residence. --RLH

The article has some serious anti-mail order bride POV issues. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 20:41, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The term itself is POV. After all it implies an entirely commercial union rather than an emotional one. --CVaneg 20:20, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Some other words to describe these services are "introduction service," "correspondence service," etc. Those don't seem very descriptive though. Rad Racer | Talk 02:11, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Recommend moving the article to Marriage service and redirecting Mail-order bride etc. MFNickster

I agree this article has some serious anti-MOB bias. What is really needed is to get 2 people on opposite sides of the issue to come up with an article that both feel represents both sides adequately.

I've started doing a bit of NPOV fixing. I've also marked some unsourced material as disputed. If it's not cited soon then it should be deleted. Blackcats 16:42, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I've tossed these bits of text through Google and the original pages typically are trivial to find. I've linked them for reference, but have nonetheless left just one of the "see talk page" tags in place (up top at the start of the whole article). I do find it strange that all the {{dubious}} tags are in the "pitfalls" section of the article, while there are many missing links to source material in other sections, including the "defence" portion. There are a few (but too few!) good, informative sites out there (asawa.org and womenrussia.com come to mind), but the majority of related sites out there are indeed intended primarily to sell addresses or services - or else they're politicised enough (equating this to commodifying women, people trafficing or worse) to make Uncyclopedia: Mail-order bride appear factual, neutral and balanced by comparison.

Yes, the term itself is awkward - is a "mail-order bride" someone whose prospective spouse has no ties whatsoever to her country other than the use of an "introduction service", as distinguished from the various other family-class immigrants such as fiancé(e)s of soldiers serving abroad or fiancé(e)s of recent immigrants from the same country? The agency terms like "penpal introduction bureau" are worse, as what they gain in political correctness they lose in (already ambiguous) meaning, with the terms being so vague that agency sites still have to contain the old "mail-order bride" term just to be findable in search engines. There isn't a good, descriptive, well-defined and neutral term, which is unfortunate.

I don't expect the POV tag to be removed anytime soon, if ever. The topic is one that evokes too many emotions. Besides, claims like "current visa process---fiancée or spousal---is only just shy of a bona fide ordeal" are relative - yes this is way more difficult than marrying the gal next door, no the family-class applicants don't have to deal with half of what prospective independent immigrants (ie: ones being considered only because they have skills we need) have to face, both in insane bureaucratic delays and in hoops to jump through before being accorded immigrant status. All depends on your POV - and there might not be any guarantee of being able to find truly neutral ground. *sigh* --carlb 20:07, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

I will try to fix some of the POV issues on it, I have spent just the last month or so researching this topic, but already I am noting some inaccuracies in the article that I am trying to go about and fix. Com2kid 00:19, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I went on one of the tours with one of the agencies and I was very pleased with their services. YES many women are scammers that do it but what woman isn't ? At least those women are extremely obvious. Then there are remarkably charming girls that are delightful and kind. I am also the victim of an immigration scam from a girl who was NOT a mail order bride. I am in New York and I have known dozens of illegals and so I know how difficult their plight is. I know many Russians, Filipinas, South Americans, etc... Some are sincere and some are not. So I have seen all sides of this issue. I will try to fix up the POV as well. It is certainly not true that all these women are beaten and including the ONE incident as "proof" of widespread abuse is sickening. ALSO - I have invented the abbreviation MOB for "Mail Order Bride" - Michael - michaellovesnyc@aol.com

Firstly Michael, according to Wikipedia policy, please sign your posts on talk pages by typing this: --~~~~ at the end. That will add your username (or IP if you are not logged in) and the time and date, as you can see at the end of most of these comments. Secondly, inventing abbreviations is not what we do here. Wikipedia style reflects common usage. It might be more cumbersome to type out "mail-order bride" each time but it's better than inventing an abbreviation. Finally, in regard to your comment "YES many women are scammers that do it but what woman isn't ?" I implore you to read the Neutral Point of View page before making any further contributions. What woman isn't a scammer? I for one am not a scammer, and I am wary of the quality of contributions of anyone who espouses such views. So keep your misogyny to yourself, and don't let it enter the Wikipedia article. Also, in an encyclopedic article, adult women must be referred to as women, or "young women" if you want. Calling them "girls" implies that they are underage. --The Famous Movie Director 11:06, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

The MOB term isn't something new or invented here, however as "the Mob" is normally used to refer to "Mafia Inc. A division of Cosa Nostra Corporation, A Black Hand Enterprises company..." it's even worse in terms of POV than "mail-order bride", hence not a solution to the lack of any usable neutral terminology out there. A (now defunct) parody site that claimed to find Canadian gals for American lads used the "We're the Canadian MOB" line, but likely as a joke to exploit the double-meaning of MOB as the business of organised crime. --carlb 04:52, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

The marriage success statistics were deleted despite having extremely strong support from the USCIS study; and there is a ridiculous barrage of so-called "concerns" that appears in no other category of dating; a concern that men are rapists and abusers without any evidence or support should not be in here. Michaellovesnyc There is sufficient coverage of this in the IMBRA section

Former Soviet Union and crime?

I noticed that this was removed from the FSU section of this article:

"Unfortunately, the widespread organised crime problems in these countries have led to many scams and frauds using false photos and tricking prospective suitors into sending money. There have been a small number of arrests but the problems are far from resolved."

All of the external sites linked as sources in this para appear to still be live; any reason why this was pulled out of the text? --carlb 22:27, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Russian brides

I distinctly recall several months ago someone fairly high up in the Russian duma or whatever they call their parliment proposed that they try to stop Russian women marrying foreign men (no talk of Russian men marrying foreign women tho) since they were supposedly one of Russian's great assests The plan was to punish/discourage Russian women from marrying foreign men by repossessing money, property etc and removing citizenship etc of said Russian women. I don't know if they are really doing anything about this or it was just one of those foot in mouth comments that are never mentioned ever again but regardless, I think it is worthy of inclusion in this article... 60.234.141.76 04:15, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

The pursuit of the so-called "mysterious Russian soul" usually translates to taking advantage of economically and socially disadvantaged women in Russia and other post-Soviet republics by men from "first world" nations. "Mysterious Russian soul" is a euphemism for finding a woman who will cook, clean, and put up with matters most American women wouldn't.

 FSU internet brides and agencies

The wikipedia article has positive and negative aspects but the fact is that in the last 5 years, Russian/FSU internet bride scams and scam agencies have gone through the roof. Because of the lack of control and regulation of internet bride agencies in Russia, Ukraine and the rest of the FSU countries ( but the scammers seem to hail from Russia and Ukraine mostly ) scammers are free to flourish and plunder Western men while Russian etc. authorities do little or in most cases nothing to stop it. The whole internet bride industry in relation to Eastern Women from the Soviet is very tarnished with a poor reputation and so is scamming and misinformation about these ladies spread by internet marriage agencies for profit and financial gain is rife. I can find very little positive in the FSU internet bride industry. As political corruption and living standards erode in such countries as the Ukraine, my opinion is the scamming will become worse and more sophisticated because of the poor socio economic outlook of these countries. Most wealth in the FSU is concentrated in the hands of the very few and priveleged ( Moscow has more billionaires than just about any other major city in the world..I believe it has 33! ) and the econmoic outlook and lifestyle for the majority of Soviet people is poor with little hope for the future which can only encourage and breed scamming. Its not going to get better. I agree witht the thrust of the Wikopedia article..finding an FSU bride on the internet is a very risky proposition indeed and very expensive and any man contemplating it needs to investigate and investigate and to check out the "girl" to see if she is real and tread very carefully as there are many pitfalls and dangers! John..Australia 21st November 2005

Single Women and Visas

However the State Department has made it very difficult for young single women to obtain tourist visas to the United States from many countries because of the high rates of visa fraud and thus, their only opportunity to come to the United States is by obtaining the sponsorship of a potential spouse or employer. Is this true? Do women really have a hard time coming to the United States as tourists if they're single? I've never heard of this. Is this also the case for Western European, Japanese, or Australian women who are unlikely to be in the United States as mail-order brides? Rhesusman 18:49, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

It is true of certain countries of origin, usually poor countries. Citizens of most countries in Western Europe would qualify for the visa waiver programme for visits of 90 days or less, so wouldn't have to deal with this. Those who come from countries which are not in any way visa-exempt, however, have to prove that they have not only economic means but ties to their own country which would cause them to return. Not an easy process for many; any previous rejections will be held against the applicant when making future consular enquiries. Those with a university education, a passport from some wealthy country, a successful business and a fistful of dollars may find it easy to travel to the US, but it somehow doesn't quite work that way for everyone else. --carlb 05:25, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it is extremely difficult for single Asian women to get visas to the United States, except those who get "professional" visas. One friend of mine told me that her sister was unable to get a visa to come speak at a symposium, despite the fact that the sister was in her 40s, owner of a chain of very successful businesses in the Philippines, and for years had made numerous trips as a motivational speaker at meetings in Europe, Canada, Japan and Australia. Critic-at-Arms 18:47, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Lead section way too long

The lead section is way, way too long. See MoS. Scott Ritchie 19:15, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Gay mail-order husbands?

I removed the following:

There is also a growing field of gay men who are turning to the internet to find their significant others and they may also fall prey to misrepresentations by their potential male partners who fail to disclose important facts to them before they immigrate or change their lifestyle for a foreign born mate; this is particularly true in countries such as Canada that now allow homosexuals to marry and sponsor their unmarried homosexual partners for immigrant visas.

Besides the awful, awful writing style, it sounds to me like this person is simply referring to "meeting a partner on the Internet"--not the industry there seems to be around "mail-order brides". If anyone can point to a "mail-order husband" website, it should be documented properly. --The Famous Movie Director 00:30, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

In a somewhat related vein, there is a link to an article exploring the lack of Mail-Order Husbands, which appears to be a self-serving link to a ponderously-written article which is really of no help whatever.--24.196.175.110 09:31, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup needed

Run-on sentences, unsourced generalizations, terribly unclear, POV, sexist ("ladies"?), awful in almost every way. I made a couple little improvements before I realized that the whole thing was a big mess. It's a shame because this is a potentially fascinating topic that deserves a write-up of feature-article quality.

What is a mail-order bride? In the very first sentence, it's "a term often used to describe women who come to a foreign land from a less developed area after only correspondence or short meeting with their eventual mate." Surely that's not quite it. Let's start with a proper definition that's accurate, addresses popular conceptions of a "mail-order bride" and makes sense. The legality of the whole thing should also be a major concern. --The Famous Movie Director 00:53, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Lead in edited

I've edited the lead in paragraph to try and make it clearer, more neutral, and better constructed. Over the next week, I will try to dig up citations for other sections and see if those areas can be cleaned a bit.

Paul 00:50, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

• The terms 'solicitor' and 'solicited' seem both awkward and one-sided, so I question whether this is much of an improvement. Oh well... --carlb 00:02, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Split Marriage Agency into a separate article because...

...it's a different thing and requires separate treatment. Also, I'm editing this article extensively for NPOV.-Gavin 21:31, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Just finished the bulk of editing. The article is much smaller but NPOV is established. Please discuss before reverting deleted material. Thanks. -Gavin 01:55, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Time line of the industry

In the 1930s, marriage agencies sprang up to send out English wives to colonials, starved of the company of their female compatriots in far flung outposts of empire.

The 1960s saw the advent of Dateline which used primitive personality testing to pair people up.

Ms Mooney started up her agency, Sara Eden, in the 1980s, when many were too busy making dosh to make love.

Sara Eden is a small, traditional and select agency, which matches people through personal introductions and charges between £700 and £5,000 depending on the level of attention required.

"I wanted to appeal to people like myself, like my friends who couldn't meet people, not because they were social misfits or because they were quiet or shy, but because they were actually spending more time on their careers," Ms Mooney says. [1]

POV

04:23, 27 February 2006 (UTC) If people want to eliminate "POV" defense that American men are not abusers, then any reference to them being abusers be removed as well; there is no evidence whatsoever that men are abusers; no evidence that men abuse mail order brides more than American wives, no evidence that mail order brides are abused more in America than in Phillipines, Russia or Ukraine; If references are made to American men as abusers, it should ONLY be listed in the "sterotype" section with the aricle defending them as not being abusers included; you can't have it both ways; be fair and be impartial or include both sides of the story - michaellovesnyc 04:23, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Why is it even relevant to include the sections "Feminist fraud" and the results of the study? Seems like an example of using Wikipedia to prove a point. CountZ 02:33, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Michaellovesnyc 19:51, 12 March 2006 (UTC) Likewise why is it relevent to include "Misrepresentations" and include misrepresentation by men and to include the IMBRA law that portrays men as abusers? You have to do one of two things: 1) Be completely neutarl or 2) Present both sides of the issues. If you are going to bring up the idea that men are abusers, then you have to allow a counter view point to be fair. Take out all the anti mail order bride propaganda and the POV issue will go away. Just be fair either way. 19:51, 12 March 2006 (UTC) michaellovesnyc 19:51, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Is anyone claiming the concern about spousal abuse is based primarily on US men being more abusive than those from some other country? I'd suspect the concerns are more likely based on the possibility that the foreign "introductions" services could become a dumping ground for those rejected as potential mates (for whatever reason) by their own compatriots. Add to this the stereotypes (such as the "(name of country) women are docile, feminine and obedient" cliché used to sell addresses from various places) and the concern that an abusive spouse could threaten to have a foreign-born mate deported, and the potential for problems does exist. The long-distance relationship aspect of this also makes it that little bit more difficult to find out what someone is really like up-front. There certainly are pitfalls, to edit the text to selectively remove (or dispute) all reference to the existence of these risks is indeed POV. There has been plenty of agenda-pushing here, technically not vandalism but at the same time not neutral. --carlb 03:07, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

The quality of this article has been destroyed. Can we revert?

Several weeks ago this article looked like this. It was accurate and conformed to Wiki standards. Now it's terrible and has lost all semblance of NPOV. I recommend we revert and get this thing back on track. How about an agree/disagree vote? -Gavin 16:08, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Agree -Gavin 16:08, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Agree, but it needs close supervision. I've been watching this page (not editing much, though) for months. A lot of users seem to be pushing a pro-mail-order-bride slant, with the overtone that mail-order brides are better than your brash, loud, angry, feminist American women. Let's not make any assumptions about the character of all women from country X, please. Oh yeah, and we need sources for everything. Currently there's a paragraph about how the Philippines has outlawed the practice since 1990, yet there are several references to Filipina brides in the rest of the article. Are there illegal agencies operating there, or what? I put a cleanup tag on this article months ago, when it was much worse--the weird thing is that I'd followed the link from an external site where someone was singing this article's praises. --The Famous Movie Director 08:42, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Is it any better to have the current anti-mail-order-bride slant? Where's the attribution for the Concerns section (which has had all disputation removed)? Why is all reference to the motivation for seeking a foreign spouse gone? As it reads now, it appears that only abusers and criminals look for foreign brides (though they somehow manage an 80% success rate in their marriages). The Philippines outlawed marriage agencies, not marriage to foreign men, and most of those marriages have been from friend or family referral, according to the State Department and BCIS. If you don't understand the issue, why are you editing it? Critic-at-Arms 05:35, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I've been watching this page since I put a cleanup tag on the article when it was in a much worse state. No, I'm not an expert on the issue--I don't even have an opinion one way or the other--but I'm bright enough to know when things are badly written, and I have rarely edited the article except for style considerations (I had to change patronizing language like "ladies" to "women" and so on). I don't think it currently has an anti-mail-order-bride slant, and I'm certainly not pushing for one. Since you seem to know something about it--are marriages between Western men and Filipina women to be considered "mail order bride" relationships even though they're not "officially" allowed? Exactly how are they arranged--what is a "reverse publication"? (Are you the one who made that edit? That's the sort of work the article needs.) --The Famous Movie Director 22:04, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

+One issue with adding paragraphs about "motivation" for seeking a foreign spouse and so on is that we're just speculating, and we risk sounding biased, until we can find research about the topic. There's a significant difference between sentences like "Many men prefer Asian women because they are more humble and obedient" (which is the sort of thing the article used to say) and "A study by so-and-so found that 40% of men seeking Asian brides did so because they saw Asian women as humble and obedient." That is the sort of evidence we need. If there's no study like that available, though, discussing motivation is dicey territory. --The Famous Movie Director 22:11, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Critic-at-Arms makes an excellent point; I have attended these events and the men are not abusers and criminals as this article makes them out to be; it is obviously slanted against mail order brides and bashes the men that go to meet them; it is quite disgusting; there is plenty of discussion of these so-called "concerns in the legal areas ~~michaellovesnyc

Famous -- to paraphrase Patton the Elder, I may be committing the greatest heresy by commenting on the issue of seeking foreign brides, as I have in fact decided only to date Asian and Pacific Islander ladies. Many of my friends are in Fil-Western marriages, and their rate of success has prompted me to pretty much give up on American women ("Kana"), while being introduced (often by correspondence) to friends and relatives of my Pinay friends. My motivation is that American women are raised in a culture which no long stigmatizes divorce, and in fact considers it a normal part of relationships. Filipinas are raised in a culture where there is no divorce, so they learn to make their marriages succeed, if their husband cooperates. Every so often some guy comes on the various websites devoted to intercultural relationship issues, surprised that the Filipinas he's met don't fit the "submissive" label often put onto them. Not one of the Pinay I've met or swapped correspondence with could be considered submissive, though some may call them "obedient" because they might go along to get along on one issue -- however, they then expect the same from their husbands on other issues. If Filipinas are humble, it's from knowing that they can afford to be. Several of the Filipinas that I've known had been in bad or abusive relationships, but this number seems to be about the American average.

The article was VERY anti-foreign-bride. To answer your question, "reverse publication" is the magazines and websites which give Pinay information about men, from which they might choose to make contact with potential mail-order husbands. The rise of singles websites has made this easier -- such sites are not "mail-order" sites, but instead are considered "means of social contact."

The fact of the matter is that so-called "mail-order brides" have an 80% marital success rate in the United States, compared to a rate of about 50% for American women. Obviously, this is a system which WORKS in four out of five cases. Critic-at-Arms 18:37, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Advocating Criminal Behaviour

Prior to my edit, the article encouraged the American spouse to lock up the marriage certificate and other documents, and to read the correspondence of the spouse. In addition to these blatantly illegal activities, it also encourages unethical behavior such as preventing the spouse from accumulating evidence of the bona fide status of the marriage (evidence the couple woud need for the two year review,) and immediately resorting to legal action as the response to any sort of argument from the foreign spouse. Wikipedia is not here to hand out anti-fraud advice as it is, but this is reprehensible.

Rest of the world

It's not just American men who use these agencies - is this article a little USA-centric? I will try to find some UK statistics especially on abuse as mail-order brides are not uncommon here. Meanwhile does every reference to the man have to be "American"? Wsbhopkin 19:39, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Would we say that they are usually Western, then? I would think Canada, Australia etc have mail order brides too. But is the practice limited to the West? I'd say go ahead and change it, but before you make too many edits, you should vote on whether we should revert to the version of a few weeks ago, as being discussed just above. --The Famous Movie Director 03:18, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Deleting large sections of text

Please don't make huge indiscriminate deletions just because you disagree with some of the content. A large part of the text Michaellovesnyc deleted earlier this edit was relevant information. For example. What's wrong with comparing this practice to other matchmaking forms? Classified listings and arranged marriages are real, and surely the article needs mention of them to avoid confusion. Likewise, the concerns section reflects commonly perceived concerns about the practice, such as women finding it difficult to adapt to their new country. If you're worried about the validity of a specific claim, add the "citation needed" tag or research it yourself--don't just make large deletions. --The Famous Movie Director 03:57, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I wrote most this article from the top to the country listings (including the comparison material). It's a little frustrating to have to revert so many Michaellovesnyc edits, but I think he's getting better. The comparison stuff is obviously useful. It'll go back in and once Michaellovesnyc stares at it for a while, his comfort factor will go up. One of my closest friends owns a marriage agency in Ukraine. I lived there and worked with her and hundreds of mail-order brides every day for two years, so my understanding of this topic is fairly expert. :) -Gavin 13:04, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Michaellovesnyc Why not practice what you preach? Constantly insulting and degrading the men and womwn that use mail order agencies is not acceptable where are the "citations" that women are abused and men are using them; why do my posts that include citations constantly keep getting deleted ? Either have NO POV or have BOTH POV; you can't have a POV without the other side having a voice

OK Deal made between Gavin and me: The ridiculous "Concerns" section is removed and the "Comparisons" section stays in although I don't see the relevency of that section; comparing beautiful young mail order brides to the garbage you meet on match.com is like comparing Filet Mignon to McDonalds; but OK; I make the deal

"But I'm a superstitious man. And if some unlucky accident should befall this page - or if it's struck by a bolt of lightning, them I'm going to blame some of the people in this room, and that I do not forgive. But, that aside, let me say that I swear, on the souls of my grandchildren, that I will not be the one to break the peace we've made here today." Michaellovesnyc michaellovesnyc

Hey Gavin; did you marry a beautiful mail order bride? Are any of them sincere? I was married to a commie but she wasnt a mail order bride; decided to go check it out; cant do any worse than what I did; I had a great time in St Pete last year

I dated around a bit but didn't marry. You'll find plenty of sincere people and insincere ones too, just like in your country. The difference is that when you're dating in foreign country, you're the cute guy that can hardly speak the language. It's like an Italian guy who lands in Canada. He might be dork at home, but he's a hot commodity abroad. That opens a lot of doors. But Kharkov, Ukraine is unrivaled in one respect. It has the highest percentage of beautiful women anywhere in the world. I know that's a subjective statement, but I've been pretty much everywhere and every guy I know who's been there says the same...even Russians. The first week I was there my eyeballs almost melted. -Gavin 00:54, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I thought large sections of text were not supposed to be deleted just because one did not agree with what it said. The sections regarding notable cases of abuse are highly relevant to the reasons why this entire topic is so controversial and you cannot really have an article about this topic without them. The sole reason that this topic is controversial and that there are any "legal issues" associated with this topic at all is that the laws at issue were passed to address the abuse issue -- so you cannot pretend its not there. Without mentioning the abuse issue, then the article loses its POV because it describes laws that appear to be unfair and draconian -- it is only when the reasons for the law are brought into the light that the article achieves balance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.33.186.81 (talk • contribs)

In this case the main reason that material was deleted was because it lacked references. I see that you've put it back with references added--I appreciate your doing the legwork; not enough users bother. I do feel that the question of abuse is one that must be addressed, if only because people tend to associate mail-order brides with dominant, abusive relationships--whether or not this is generally true (and of course it isn't universally true). I'm concerned, though, that the gory details might be a bit sensational and inappropriate for the legal issues section. I think it should be pruned down--and perhaps all the IMBRA stuff should be moved into a subsection. What do other editors think? --Grace 14:09, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Lists or tips

Would it be a worthy addition to list tips to avoid fraud in a search for a mail order bride? Might not be possible to directly list good companies, as that would be biased, but maybe some general tips and things to look for in an agency and what not, the right questions to ask, the right verification and license the agency should have, etc. Maybe there are already watchdogs for this sort of thing that could be mentioned. I'm also curious if a general but detailed outline of the process would be possible, or is that beyond the scope of this article, or Wikipedia?

Proposals for restructured article (please contribute)

This article still needs a lot of work. These are things that I think might be added to the article to improve it. I'm focusing on what someone might want to know if they came to the page for research. Please add your suggestions below mine.

• First of all, the introduction should have a mention of the controversy of the issue. Perhaps then the main article could address controversial issues more openly.

• How about pictures? The article is text-heavy. Either a photo of a real mail-order bride and her husband, or a picture of someone portraying a mail-order bride in a movie, or a famous mail-order bride (any famous mail-order bride would probably be a victim of some kind, so that might be too negative).

• What is a mail-order bride agency? A section about what marriage agencies do and how the whole process works (keeping in mind that Wikipedia is not a how-to guide). Most websites that advertise mail-order brides perpetuate sexist and racist stereotypes. They "recommend" women from country X because these women are "feminine" and "obedient", and so on (I've seen a fair few of these websites now). This is not an objective truth or even an acceptable generalization, nowadays. Let's not ignore that these organizations are blatantly sexist and racist.

• Sections about the motivation for becoming or seeking a mail-order bride. I think this helps contextualise and make sense of the practice. It's not a simple matter of romance. For example: many women want to escape various bad conditions in their homeland; many of these men are frustrated with the women or dating system of their own country. Cite sources, though, like this article.

• Leading on from this, more extensive discussion of the prevalence of abuse. It's far from universal, but it exists. This is quite objectively a major concern because the numerous academic articles about mail-order brides usually focus on abuse. Someone who visits the Wikipedia article might be a sociology student looking for that information. Of course, this section should specify that reported cases of abuse are in the minority. The marriage success statistics part could follow from that (although divorce rate is arguably problematic as a measure of "success", especially here, when women might stay in an unhappy marriage because they are in a foreign culture and don't know where else to go).

• Legality stuff that's already in the article, but it could be expanded.

• Anything else? --The Famous Movie Director 06:48, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Third opinion on demographics section

Someone asked for a third opinion on the demographics section. In my opinion, it seems to be speculation, not verified information. Speculation on what might cause the phenomenon is original research, and therefore not our job here at Wikipedia. The section should be promptly removed unless citations from a reputable source can be found.

I also caution editors to be careful about voting. Wikipedia is not a democracy; we work by consensus. If you must count noses, use a poll to take the temperature of the group. But don't make it about "winning"; use it to find a way to bring everybody into consensus. --William Pietri 07:01, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Comment by Michaellovesnyc

• Michaellovesnyc 13:31, 26 May 2006 (UTC) michaellovesnyc - I would like to end this already. Obviously some people will refuse to agree regardless of the mountain of evidence provided and will distort facts and statistics regardless of the source or how old they are. I am suggesting leaving out any connotation that demographics plays a role and incorporate it into the history or the comparison sections and let readers just know the facts and make their own judgment.

I do not think the history section makes sense to have it there. I would think that the first thing you do in describing something is describing the origin of the word. Does this not make sense?

I also do not see the purpose of comparing it to other matchmaking services or having its own section. Why can't we just incorporate this in the main body?

I ask that we stop reverting each others changes and resolve our differences by agreement here. I am willing to compromise to make this article look nice and provide good information.

I really do not think adding anything about gays adds anything to the article. If someone could somehow explain how they think it does, I would be willing to listen to any reasonable explanation.

Recent edits discussing mail-order bride abuse court cases

I'm of the opinion that this material does not belong in the article. Certainly abuses occur in marriages, even murders. This phenomenon is not unique to mail-order brides. The entries infer that abuse is common. If this inference is fact, then we need supporting data to show this. If it is not fact, then these inference raised is inappropriate. It's analagous to adding a string of murder cases in the article on marriage. It's misleading. Comments anyone? Gavin 17:25, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Let me explain again why this information belongs in this article. If there is to be any discussion whatsover regarding United States legislation to regulate international marriage brokers (the International Marriage Broker Regulation Act of 2005 -IMBRA), then you have to explain why the law was enacted. You cannot maintain a NPOV by saying, that there are extensive regulations governing the formation of mail order bride marriages in the United States that do not exist with regard to the formation of other marriages without explaining why the government of the United States draws a distinction. The fact is, the only real "legal issues" associated with mail order brides are the issues surrounding abuse. That's just the way it is -- they are actually the same thing. Even though it is true that abuses occur in marriages of all types, the Congress of the United States was especially concerned about abuses in these types of relationships because these women are unfamilliar with the laws, language, and customs of the United States. That's why there has been over a decade of legislation passed to protect these women. In 1996, in passing the "Mail Order Bride Act," (which IMBRA replaced) Congress made explicit findings that there are unique problems with these marriages:

"(a) Findings

     The Congress finds as follows:
       (1) There is a substantial "mail-order bride" business in the
     United States. With approximately 200 companies in the United
     States, an estimated 2,000 to 3,500 men in the United States find
     wives through mail-order bride catalogs each year. However, there
     are no official statistics available on the number of mail-order
     brides entering the United States each year.
       (2) The companies engaged in the mail-order bride business earn
     substantial profits.
       (3) Although many of these mail-order marriages work out, in
     many other cases, anecdotal evidence suggests that mail-order
     brides find themselves in abusive relationships. There is also
     evidence to suggest that a substantial number of mail-order
     marriages are fraudulent under United States law.
       (4) Many mail-order brides come to the United States unaware or
     ignorant of United States immigration law. Mail-order brides who
     are battered often think that if they flee an abusive marriage,
     they will be deported. Often the citizen spouse threatens to have
     them deported if they report the abuse.  Title 8 United States Code, Section 1375

I have no objections to putting it all in a separate subheading on IMBRA, but I don't think you can escape that this is the entire reason why there are any "legal issues" surrounding mail order brides at all. The only other entry under this subheading in this article is the Phillipines law which is designed to address the very same issue.

Also, at least six states have passed there own versions of IMBRA (if you want me to link to those, I would be happy to do so). The point is, these issues are at the core of the entire mail order bride debate.

I would like to see the 6 state laws. I find this very hard to believe, and even harder to enforce because immigration is purely a federal issue.

Here they are...let me know if you need me to give you actual links, or if you can do the internet searches for them yourself...each has citations:

1. WA. REV. CODE § 19.220.010 requires “Each international matchmaking organization doing business in Washington state shall disseminate to

a [foreign] recruit . . . state background check information and personal history information relating to any Washington state resident about whom any information is provided to the recruit, in the recruit’s native language. . . . the Washington state resident shall obtain from the state patrol and provide to the organization the complete transcript of any background check . . . based on a submission of fingerprint impressions and . . . shall provide to the organization his or her personal history information.”

1. HAW. REV. STAT. § 489N-2 requires IMBs to “notify all recruits that criminal history record information and marital history information is available upon request” and upon such request to obtain from the client a “complete transcript of any criminal history record or a statement that there is no record of convictions.”
2. MO. REV. STAT. § 566.221 makes it a felony for client of IMB to fail to “obtain a copy of his or her own criminal history record nformation; Providethe criminal history record information to the international marriage broker; and Provide to the international marriage broker his or her own marital history information” or providing false information therein.
3. TEX. BUS. & COM. CODE ANN. § 35.122 requires IMB to “provide each recruit with the criminal history record information and marital history

information of its clients and with basic rights information.”

1. California has legislation pending to regulate IMBs (AB 634) that passed the Assembly in 2005 and is awaiting a hearing before the Business

and Professions Committee of the California Senate. The bill proposes a licensure scheme that, among other things, requires that brokers themselves submit to criminal background checks.

Purely a POV comment...

I don't understand the IMBRA because of the following reasons:

1) It is aimed at a very narrow group of businesses, ones that promote foreign spouses for marriage. 2) If an abuser has something to hide, it is very easy to find a spouse via another method, IE traveling to a foreign country and meeting a spouse, using a service such as match.com etc. 3) Why only protect women who are introduced via an IMB, why not protect all foreign women (and men)? I really think this law should exist, but it should exist at the US consulate level before a visa (or green card if already married) is issued to a foreign fiancée or spouse. 4) If the consulate was collecting the information prior to a visa or green card being issued then the American Citizen wouldn’t be required to state his entire life history prior to saying “Hello”. Freedom of speech would still exist on all levels, while protecting everyone entering our country.

It seems to me that this law is a feminist stance and very anti-american-male. There are many better ways to protect ALL foreigners and not just the ones who meet spouses in ways that the feminist do not agree with.

Also, I just reverted Michaellovesnyc's wholesale deletion of text --- text that was referenced and is the subject of this current debate. Hasn't Michaellovesnyc violated wiki policy enough that official action can be requested?? I don't want to get into a war over this -- I have better things to do with my time. I leave it to the knowledgable editors to decide whether the complete deletion of relevant, cited, and referenced text should be permitted. If Wikipedia hopes to ever be taken seriously, widescale vandalism of other people's work has to be dealt with in a quick and appropriate manner.