Talk:Morgellons

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Proposal

If you can have an article on the denialism of HIV then you can certainly have an article on the pro-side of this. This is simply a matter of nazi wiki editors using the "Facts" simply to their advantage whenever they are convenient. We all know HIV causes AIDS yet you have an article presenting HIV/AIDS denial. Why not the other side of Morgellon's. Because some "editor" who doesn't even have to prove he's qualified for anything decides otherwise?

University of New Haven Investigates Morgellons

It appears that a team at University of New Haven are also researching Morgellons and from this poster presentation, it looks as though ths is consistentent with the publications authored by Marianne Middelveen. Click here: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=693067200709363&set=a.693067057376044.1073741825.100000182692626&type=1&relevant_count=1

How does this work from UNH weigh in as of the unpublished work of Dr Wymore at OSU? Dr. Wymore's work is included in the article so perhaps this input from UNH should be included as well. Sierraparis (talk) 05:12, 9 July 2013 (UTC)Sierraparis

I will try to verify this tomorrow with UNH. Sierraparis (talk) 05:24, 9 July 2013 (UTC)Sierraparis

Don't waste your time. This is a great example of crank magnetism. "Chronic lyme disease" is yet another disease found non-existent by the medical community at large, and apparently a prominent topic of research of the only PhD on the poster. Furthermore, it's utterly unpublished. Posters count even less than publications in shoddy "journals." Sailsbystars (talk) 05:38, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Firstly, it is a student showcase. As in, to show other students and staff at the university. Secondly, would this be the same Divya Burugu who was co-author of "Association of spirochetal infection with Morgellons disease" Marianne J Middelveen1, Divya Burugu2, Akhila Poruri2, Jennie Burke3, Peter J Mayne1, Eva Sapi2, Douglas G Kahn4, Raphael B Stricker1? I can see why the student poster may well have been consistent with the work of Dr Middelveen.137.111.13.200 (talk) 09:06, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Excuse me, but the way I spend my time is not of your concern. I am shocked by the rude responses such as this one in which you are telling me not to waste my time. I also noticed some accusation of being a sock puppet. What is that? I see that Wikipedia rules suggest welcoming of new users. I will be sure to check with the journals you are labeling as "shoddy" to get their take on your continued degradation of their credibility. Regardless of your rude comments, I feel that UNH Research should be considered as a viable portion of this controversial topic. The number of PhDs in a photo is certainly insignificant. Must you degrade others in order to make your point? For the purpose of my own journalism I will verify the research on Morgellons being conducted at UNH. Thanks to sailsbystars, am seeing more clearly the obstacles to NPOV being portrayed on Wikipedia. Sierraparis (talk)Sierraparis

A poster at a student conference would not meet our sourcing guidelines even remotely. Dbrodbeck (talk) 15:25, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

I may not be able to contribute to a solution then but I am learning a lot. Thanks Sierraparis (talk) 02:27, 10 July 2013 (UTC)Sierraparis

You're free to spend your time however you see fit. However, I'm trying to indicate that your version of neutral and the wikipedia version of neutral are not one and the same. If you want information included in a wikipedia article, it MUST comply with our reliable source policy and particularly the even stricter guidelines for sourcing medical articles. (and also, the policy on undue weight which is particularly important for this article) Your original link does not comply with those policies and thus pursuing that source further will not persuade established editors towards inclusion. Hence why I indicated it was a waste of time. You seem to want to engage in original research which is a useful practice for academics and sometimes for journalists, but strictly prohibited on wikipedia. Regards, Sailsbystars (talk) 03:29, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Okay! Thanks. My purpose here was to learn more about the controversy surrounding this condition. I had hoped that perhaps sharing some of the information I have found might be helpful to you in reaching a compromise about improving the article by making it more neutral. I do think it lacks neutrality considering all the information have gathered so far. I am actually encountering mainstream dermatologists who are far far more neutral about this debate than wiki editors seem to be. I do hope that, for the sake of those who suffer from this horrible condition, the tides will soon turn. Whether or not this condition is purely psychiatric in origin, I think the current article here is harsh, misleading and detrimental to an already a compromised group of very ill individuals some of whom have taken their own lives due to lack of hope of ever receiving acknowledgement or help from the medical community. After interviewing some of these very distraught human beings who are unfortunate enough to be plagued with such a horrible disfiguring condition, the current article IMO is more degrading than it needs to be. Sierraparis (talk) 01:01, 11 July 2013 (UTC)Sierraparis

You could make an equally good (or actually even better) argument in stating that Wikipedia has a responsibility to present this condition as psychiatric in origin, because that's what the authoritative secondary sources say, so as not to mislead individuals with the problem into seeking pharmacologic care that will never work because what they need is psychiatric help, with possible drastic consequences if they don't get it. (I hasten to remind every one that Wikipedia is not to be relied on for medical advice.) While I do feel bad for the people who have this condition, Wikipedia does not value personal experience of individuals as sources, or for determining due weight. Zad68 02:40, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure how investigation of the origin of any condition could prevent anyone from receiving appropriate care. Seems that any illness could result in psych issues and especially an illness that is chronic and life altering. Having interviewed several patients with Morgellons, I have yet to encounter one who meets all the criteria of a Delusional Diagnosis. Having spoken to a couple of psychiatrists, I understand that Delusions of Parasitosis is not listed in the DSM 4 or the DSM 5. Many of the patients I have spoken to have zero belief that they have any kind of infestation by parasites. Makes one wonder how they can be diagnosed with DOP when they had nerver even considered parasites to be the cause of their condition. IMO the wiki article is biased and some of the editors here appear to have vested interest in keeping it that way. I predict that secondary sources will soon be forthcoming and I'll be interested in what type of argument you will use then, to prevent the article from depicting NPOV. University of New Haven seems to find the potential for an infectious etiology worthy of investigation. http://www.newhaven.edu/515835/. Sierraparis (talk) 18:49, 13 July 2013 (UTC)Sierraparis

Thanks for giving us a link to another press release authored by the Charles E Holman Foundation, and most likely the authors of the material you want included in the page.137.111.13.200 (talk) 02:38, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

You are most welcome 137, that is if you are still around after last night's resemblance of a rabid dingo.

I have an important question to ask here. Actually I wasn't sure whether to ask this here or under the topic of 'The role of the Internet'. With University of New Haven drawing so much attention to Morgellons on their website with the aforementioned poster presentation and other Morgellons press, would it not be appropriate to cite UNH under the role of the Internet in dissemination of information regarding an association of spirochetal infection with Morgellons lesions. Hopefully Andy the Grump can answer this question. Would UNH website be a reliable source to reference under the role of the Internet. There are many other websites discussing various theories on Morgellons but to me, UNH seems to be the most reliable. It certainly is being talked about on the www by many.Sierraparis (talk) 22:34, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

What are you proposing to cite them for? Do they have anything to say regarding the 'role of the internet'? AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:37, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Sierraparis: The piece was not authored by the University of New Haven, it is a press-release authored by the Charles E Holman Foundation. It is unaltered. There are guidelines which explicitly discuss this. Displaying ignorance about wikipedia's sourcing guidelines is fair enough, but I don't accept that you are sufficiently clueless about standards of courtesy as to think it appropriate to describe fellow editors as akin to dogs. Your comments here have seldom lead to any improvements of the page, and have mostly served to drain away other editors' time and energy from doing so. Stick to the goal of improving the article or exercise restraint.137.111.13.200 (talk) 05:36, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

The poster was indeed created by Dr. Eva Sapi and her students at Universoty of New Haven and presented at a Physician's conference. <http://www.newhaven.edu/586934.pdf>. Sorry if I have added to your confusion 137 but somehow you have gotten off track....again. Sierraparis (talk) 06:04, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

2013 (UTC)

The last link you had posted was authored by the Charles E Holman Foundation, and it is a press-release that has not been altered. There are guidelines covering this. The poster doesn't come close to being eligible for inclusion on the page. This has already been addressed. Regrettably, I just don't see how your suggestions improve the page.137.111.13.200 (talk) 04:46, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Just a reminder for 137 to read the top of this page and please stop violating 3 basic guidelines:

Be polite, and welcoming to new users, Assume good faith Avoid personal attacks Sierraparis (talk) 05:42, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, there is nothing there resembling a personal attack. This 'study' has been discussed and rejected, move on, really. Dbrodbeck (talk) 13:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

You've already clearly stated you're not here to edit, Sierraparis. You're not a user, you're pushing an agenda, and you are not welcome here while those two things are true. 69.23.116.182 (talk) 03:08, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

those 2 things are not at all true. I have very politely interacted here. I have asked whether certain additions meet criteria for updating the role of the Internet Section. If you feel I have been in violation of any wiki policy, please be more specific so I can correct my mistakes. Thank you in advance. Sierraparis (talk) 08:40, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Asked and answered, move on.137.111.13.200 (talk) 01:24, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

UNH source: Is there an edit being proposed?

Regarding this item from the UNH, is there a specific edit being proposed here? If so, please specify the proposed content change using this source. It needs to be pointed out that WP:MEDRS indicates that conference abstracts are often poor sources because they are self-published and have not undergone a peer review, and this item from the UNH appears to suffer from those problems. In either case, this item from the UNH is primary research and we already have several authoritative secondary sources, and so per WP:MEDREV I can't see how this item would be useful for this article. At this time we now need to see the proposed edit so that we can see if there is consensus supporting it, or not, and therefore bring this discussion to a conclusion.

If there is no actual change being proposed, this conversation should be closed as unproductive. Zad68 02:25, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Zad ...the points you make are well understood and well taken. The conversation was regarding the Role of the Internet and the fact that some unreliable sources currently exist in this section. (Popular Mechanics article citing an anonymous derm for starters) The Morgellons related Internet talk is mostly centered around research at UNH and the association made with Borrelia . I only shared the poster to demonstrate what the people on Morgellons blogs and forums are discussing as theories. I am looking for a secondary source which mentions topics being discussed on the internet. I have heard about an article in the Septemember issue of Harper's Magazine. I haven't read the entire text yet but I will pick up a news stand copy because I think it may discuss the role of the Internet and the theories being suggested. I can run it by you when I get it. I believe there is mention of Internet discussion on the topic. Sierraparis (talk) 06:53, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Great, as I see you have started a new section below regarding the Hypothesis about the fibers section, I take it that this discussion can be closed. Zad68 14:54, 28 August 2013 (UTC

Yes, this conversation can be closed. Thanks. Sierraparis (talk) 19:43, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

What about studies done by Oklahoma State University, that have been going on for years? Why a these not included?

http://www.healthsciences.okstate.edu/morgellons/docs/Wymore-position-statement-2-19-07.pdf If you can see here, researchers actually state that Morgellons is NOT delusional parsitosis. I understand that nobody is trying to support this viewpoint, but exclusion of evidence is journalistically irresponsible. Even more so are the scientifically superb articles by Dr. Carnicorn, whose exclusion from the subject is almost absurd. http://www.carnicominstitute.org/articles/a_working_hypothesis.htm Read through these papers and the pages they lead you to and see for yourself. Usernameamanda (talk) 04:20, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

We don't consider those sources to be reliable under even WP's non-medical source requirements, let alone the medical article guidelines. This has already been discussed, repeatedly, and consensus has been reached. The view that Morgellons is non-delusional is not supported by any reputable sources and therefore cannot be considered a significant minority view. It remains a fringe view and we do not include fringe research in articles. 69.23.116.182 (talk) 06:01, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I see a webpage that is not possible to get to from the school's webpage. In fact, the OSU directory doesn't even list the alleged morgellons program (although Wymore is listed) and there is not even a single press release on Morgellons.... Something ain't right there.... Sailsbystars (talk) 06:04, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

here is the link from the school's web page, http://www.healthsciences.okstate.edu/morgellons/index.cfmUsernameamanda (talk) 07:18, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

http://www.healthsciences.okstate.edu/morgellons/research.cfmUsernameamanda (talk) 07:20, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

So what you're saying is, the people who are being ridiculed throughout this article (which is, by the way, the most biased I have found on the Internet, unfortunate as Wikipedia is usually the first reference site on someone's list) have no say in the article whatsoever. The story of these studies occurring matters to the topic at hand, regardless of whether or not you consider them reputable, they are part of the story and a large part of it, indeed most of it, and they should be included. It is a very significant minority standpoint as it is the standpoint of the minority being discussed. That is not the fringe. That is the topic. Leaving out all information not matching popular opinion creates a warped and incomplete picture. This article is about a minority viewpoint yet its editors refuse to include any part of that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Usernameamanda (talk • contribs) 06:51, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but you just don't understand WP policy on writing articles. Please take some time to read up on policy, then come back when you have a better understanding. We've already had to revert one of your edits to the article. 69.23.116.182 (talk) 07:22, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

that's fine. I'll be happy to go do my homework. In the meantime, please consider the added section I have suggested on the findings of these independent studies. I believe you will find it would be possible to do within guidelines, not as a medical source but as a general addition to the subject and a relevant and useful addition of information. Usernameamanda (talk) 07:51, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

http://ovidsp.tx.ovid.com/sp-3.10.0b/ovidweb.cgi?T=JS&PAGE=fulltext&D=ovft&AN=00128071-200607010-00001&NEWS=N&CSC=Y&CHANNEL=PubMed here is a link to a published paper meeting all your requirements. Unfortunately one must have an account with Ovid to read it in entirety. Does anyone here?Usernameamanda (talk) 08:48, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

We have discussed that paper, that journal, and you ought to take a look at who the first author is. This is not an RS. Dbrodbeck (talk) 11:25, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Regarding the Oklahoma links, perhaps I was a bit to vague in my explanation. All of the links you give are healthsciences.okstate.edu/morgellons/ It appears that Wymore user name is morgellons. Therefore, that is his personal webpage, and not an official department webpage, even though it has been dressed up to look official. Normally though, the department would link to personal webpages of members of the department and release news about their professors. In my humble opinion it looks like they've gone out of their way to avoid doing this... you can't get to Wymore's page from healthsciences.okstate.edu... It's almost certainly not a reliable source to begin with, but there is something very very strange going on here.... Sailsbystars (talk) 15:56, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Hm, in my research I just found this article from the CEHF on... this article we're working on here. http://www.prweb.com/releases/2013/5/prweb10707772.htm I also have had email contact with this foundation, and they told me that attempting to reason with the editors workings this article was akin to beating against a brick wall. Many more qualified than I have already attempted to include some of these peer reviewed studies published in reputable medical journals, and many were shot down in rude manners, where less reliable sources supporting the majority opinion were allowed as references. You either understand completely what you're doing, or not at all. You are either very ignorant on the subject and feel that it is your duty to present a lopsided view in order to help Morgellons patients see their folly (it is not, it is your duty to present the whole truth in all forms it comes to you so as to show the whole picture), or you are specifically working against this information being released. Congratulations, it's working. You've provided fodder for every troll on the Internet. Usernameamanda (talk) 20:19, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Mmm. Sweet, delicious irony. There are no pro-fringe view, peer-reviewed studies in reputable medical journals. We've been over this with the editors representing the foundation already. 69.23.116.182 (talk) 20:32, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

there are quite a few as I'm finding. Just how reputable do these journals have to be? People are killing themselves. Do you understand that? People come to this article for information and deny their family members emotional support. The fact is this is not a black and white matter and it is presented as such. That's not sweet irony. That is deeply disturbing. The fact that you want to push your agenda when there are thousands of people suffering and dying over this makes me want to...Shake your hand. So that you can experience the loneliness and pain that living with a highly contagious and debilitating disease http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22253541brings. I have not touched another human in four months. I'm not asking for a pro Morgellons article. I'm asking for one that presents the issue as complex and manifold as it is, with ALL perspectives that have been published. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Usernameamanda (talk • contribs) 20:47, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Go read WP:MEDRS please. The only agenda being pushed here is building an encyclopedia. We have rules, learn them. We don't talk about all perspectives, that is just not how it works. Oh and PR web is useless, it is a big pile of useless actually. We really don't base articles on press releases anyone can write. Can you please remove the link, it is an attack page about an editor, and as such also violates policy, thank you. Dbrodbeck (talk) 20:59, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

is there anything wrong with this study here? It was done on the largest group of patients yet. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3047951/ I am afraid I will not be deleting that link as it is very relevant and might help to remind us to put aside personal bias and publish the information we encounter. Furthermore PR seemed important enough to include in the section on the internet, did it not? Now as for this study here, which links Morgellons to Lyme and explains the composition of the fibers? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Usernameamanda (talk • contribs) 21:22, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

It has been discussed, read the archives please. Before you present any more studies, please take a look at the archives. There is a link at the top of the page, just to the right and below the big yellowish boxes. Again, read the archives, these things have been discussed with other WP:SPAs. Dove Press journals don't meet WP:MEDRS. You also might want to look at WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. If you think an attack page is relevant, you might also read WP:NPA Dbrodbeck (talk) 21:32, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

No I don't think an attack page is relevant, but I also don't see this as an attack page. I see this as a description of the article here from NPOV. You use SPA flippantly as if to brush me off, but I was advised by wiki staff member Kosten Frosch to get an account after complaining of the bigotry I found in this article. My intention was just to get one of those notices put up on the page that said "This article is Biased. You can help by..." I didn't realize the depth of the issue until I started talking to the editors, who refuse to make any compromise on the insulting tone of this article. Crazy or not, this is a medical condition and should be treated with a minimum of respect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Usernameamanda (talk • contribs) 22:17, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

You know, I don't care who told you to get an account, it does not matter. What does matter is policy. If you think someone here has not followed policy or has somehow mistreated you, you could always post at WP:ANI. Bigotry is a pretty damned strong word, and not at all appropriate. Dbrodbeck (talk) 23:29, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

that's interesting, dictionary.com defines bigotry as " stubborn and complete intolerance of any belief, creed, or opinion that is not one's own." Seems to be very appropriate here. Wikipedia states that any significant minority opinion found in sources should be mentioned. So why is the minority in question not allowed any standing here? Yes it does matter to the thousands of people discredited in this article. It matters to have integrity. It matters to show both sides. Regardless of what you think this is, any article on morgellons which does not take in the perspective of morgellons patients themselves is incomplete. Usernameamanda (talk) 00:13, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

the sourcing page I have been shown also states that exceptions can be made when common sense allows. Would this subject not be one of those cases, as the subject itself is involved?Usernameamanda (talk) 00:19, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

It is not a significant minority view, it is a fringe view with no support in mainstream medical literature. Nobody here is 'bigoted' against anything, saying such things will get you absolutely nowhere. It is, in fact, a personal attack. Read WP:MEDRS read WP:CONSENSUS read WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS and all of the other links that have been provided to you. Oh and read the archives. This is getting exceedingly tiring. If you have a problem with an editor's actions you can always go to WP:ANI. Dbrodbeck (talk) 00:26, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Usernameamanda, there is no 'bigotry' involved whatsoever in ensuring that this article complies with the relevant Wikipedia policies - and nothing you have written so far suggests that it in any way fails to do so. Instead, you appear to be upset that such policies don't allow Wikipedia to be used as a platform for fringe medical claims - well tough, that isn't what it is for, and were we to open up articles to such material, we'd soon loose any credibility as a source. Our policies have been arrived at by consensus, and you'll either have to accept that they apply and work within them, or find another platform to promote your views. Your choice... AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:35, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

I hhave been reading the links provided. I don't see how any of the policies would block this information from being included were this being done reasonably. Wikipedia has already lost credibility in my book. I know I won't be coming here for information anymore if I need anything more than the birthday of a pop star. I don't see a consensus being arrived at. I see lots of different viewpoints being squashed at a speed so discouraging as to keep those holding them from returning. This is not a personal attack. I am suspicious of your motives however. A section including the views and perspectives of the other side of this argument is necessary and lacking. I don't understand why there is such vested interest in keeping this from happening. Usernameamanda (talk) 00:42, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

I am not the one with a platform to trumpet here. What I want is a balanced and well-rounded article. You are the ones who want only one platform presented.

Start with WP:MEDRS Then, please read the archives. Many experienced editors have hashed this out, many many times. We are following policy. You know, you have been here for like 22 hours or something, some of us have been here longer. You might consider that we know what we are talking about. But if you are not going to edit any more, fine, see you later then. Dbrodbeck (talk) 00:51, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

This has been discussed thoroughly. Since you are new to wikipedia, it is quite possible that you haven't yet discovered that reading the history of the talk pages can give you a good insight into edits you might want to propose, and the reasons why similar proposals have not been accepted in the past. In the spirit of wanting to help a new user, I suggest you have a look at the posts of Sierraparis, DrGao and particularly Erythema. These posts seem to mirror your proposals, and so you can see the different logical and procedural reasons behind the responses to them. It also really helps when new users read WP policies themselves, rather than relying on others to explain when and how they have contravened them.137.111.13.200 (talk) 00:49, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

I feel that I am just draining myself of,vital energy attempting to make headway on this article where so many have failed. This piece reads like a spoof. It reads like a rude theater performance. I'd like to talk a little bit about the impac this article is making, and why I find it's important to show both sides.

Perhaps you will forgive me for personalizing, but I see no other way to do this than to tell my story. Back in March I was teaching English in a small town in Ecuador. I had a fling with a boy I met there one afternoon. At one point he started scratching himself. I jokingly asked him if he had scabies and he got very defensive.

By June I was too itchy to sleep. I read on Earthclinic that sulphur soap and orange oil were remedies. When I used these two things in conjunction, I watched hundreds of red, black and white hairs and splinters (that's the only way to describe the, really) rise up out of my skin, along with little black specks. I wanted to vomit.

Over the course of the next two months I battled these with everything I could find. I started following Scabies forums where people described their scabies as looking the same as mine. Some of these people had been fighting 'scabies' for over ten years. Nothing worked. I was often close to suicide. I quit my job. Students were starting to stare. It was impossible to work.

At one point someone posted on the scabies forum, "Guys. The grains in the sheets? The black specks? These aren't scabies, these are Morgellons."

So, like anyone confronted with new vocabulary, I looked it up on Wikipedia. "What is this guy talking about? Morgellons is a delusion." and dropped the issue. For two more months I fought 'scabies'. Only a month ago, after returning to a quarantine at the house I grew up in and spending the last of my money for doctors to patronize me, did I find pictures of Morgellons.

if this article had had NPOV, I might have learned of ts before I ran out of the money needed to treat it. There is also the issue that no natural remedies are listed, though many are used by people with Morgellons. This article sends a message that if you're not crazy, there's no hope. Considering the high rates of suicide among Morgellons patients, this is a huge issue.

Both sides need to be represented because, when it comes down to it, no one is certain what this is at this point. Articles like this are not helping. The derogatory tone is going to put any one on guard and defense who really does need psychiatric help. Usernameamanda (talk) 05:23, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

There's also the matter of public opinion, to which the article gives first impression. By presenting this as if no physical conditions are being found by any researcher, anywhere, the article creates a natural bias in the public. Imagine everyone cracking up everytimeyou told the, you had HIV. Just his week, I have had six people cite this article to me. I am lucky to have very supportive friends and family, but most people with Morgellons do not have that luxury due to people's ignorance of the complexity of the subject. People need to understand where these folks are comingfromand why they believe what they do. Including these viewpoints would simply make this a better article. Right now, it does not make sense as the issues involved are not all included. The inclusion of the section on the Internet is particularly egregious. If this section can be included, with what amounts to a lot of gossip filling it out, than another section involving other unproven theories should also be included. I know for a fact there is at least one case (mine) which was not caused by the Internet, as the Internet was what caused me to put off research on the subject. Along with, I might assume, the countless people attempting to treat what they think is 'visible scabies' every day! Because these people were also ignorant of their condition and not exposed to the information they needed to put it in perspective, they continue to live horrendous, unimaginable lives. I saw these coming out of my skin long before I'd heard of anything like it. This article is causing actual harm to people who trust Wikipedia as a source of information. Usernameamanda (talk) 05:38, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

This isn't a forum, or a short-story contest. What you did one afternoon in Ecuador isn't our concern. Please keep the conversation on topic.137.111.13.200 (talk) 06:06, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

But what is your concern is how your article is affecting people. You have a responsiblity to the public to present a full view of this subject, and your neglect to do so is causing people harm, myself on particular. This story is the only way I thoughti might be able to demonstrate that to you. The details are so you understand that I did not hear this from someone and then get it, thus by objectively taking in the evidence you perhaps can see the relevance. Scuse the typos, I'm on an iPad. Usernameamanda (talk) 06:17, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

if you'd continued reading, you see that this story is about this article and the effect it had on my life and those of many others who think they have scabies when they in fact have symptoms matching Morgellons. Due to lack of information they go on attempting to treat themselves for the wrong disease, as I did. It is our responsibility to include all information available, and there is a large subset of that information being left out. Please consider the consequences of these omissions. Usernameamanda (talk) 06:29, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

This isn't a forum in which medical treatment advice should be given or sought. When you say "story", do you mean fiction? As in Debra Baumstark fiction?137.111.13.200 (talk) 06:48, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Of course it isn't, but it is the first reference someone normally checks on the Internet. Keeping half the information on the subject out is not good reporting. By story I mean what actually happened to me. Unwillingness to recognize this as a possibility reflects personal bias. Willingness to ridicule people with this condition as you have just demonstrated is part of the issue with this article. Usernameamanda (talk) 07:02, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with the article, really. It is off-topic and doesn't help the article at all. Propose a specific edit or do some reading about WP policies. This exchange isn't productive and it should cease.137.111.13.200 (talk) 07:43, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

I have been researching these policies. It appears that we are just interpreting them differently. You term pro pathogen articles, papers and views as fringe views, whereas the percentages and medical papers show that this is a minority view. The number of editors who have come before seeking to create a balanced perspectives implies that a consensus cannot be reach. The illusion of consensus is created by overriding any editors who do not match these viewpoints. Furthermore the concessions for common sense in the guidelines on medical sources should be used here, as this is an issue of medical controversy, that controversy must be represented in the article. Usernameamanda (talk) 09:27, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Amanda, I am truly sorry that you feel you have been affected by Morgellons. It does sound like an awful condition and I wouldn't wish it on anybody. Based on this, I also understand why you're upset with the article. However, the other editors here are correct. Wikipedia is absolutely not the place to go looking to either give or expect to receive medical advice, see WP:MEDICAL. All the Wikipedia articles do is re-present the information found in reliable secondary sources. All the sources you have brought have been discussed to death, honestly, and the policy-based conclusion the experienced Wikipedia editors here have come to is that the sources you mention are unfit for use in this article.

At this point there is no consensus in support of the kinds of edits you are proposing based on the sources you have brought. If you continue to use this article Talk page to push for the use of those sources, or for general discussion about Morgellons, what will probably happen is that eventually a discussion will be opened up about your editing at an administrator noticeboard, possibly resulting in your ability to edit in this subject area being removed. This has already happened to several other editors. I don't mean this as a threat, but you need to be aware of the past history here and the likely outcome of this line of editing if you don't start listening to what's being said. Zad68 13:42, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Extended content
Show on Morgellons to Air on The Science Channel's Unexplained Files tonight at 9 pm. for your edification.2605:6000:6780:9C00:C9A6:8F6A:4943:6B31 (talk) 19:14, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Discussion started by Wnt

Taking a single stab into this issue, I noticed that Drgao had said in archive 10 that saying that the CDC had "suggested" Morgellons was delusional parasitosis was not accurate. Looking up the two sources for that, the second (NBC news) does say that [1] but the source it is based on does not say that, saying instead that it is an open question, though it does begin by saying that many dermatologists believe it is delusional parasitosis. [2] For people with a strong investment in the issue, such nuances of meaning are very important, and I think they should be important to us also.

As long as I'm here, I should ask: has anyone studied epidermal barrier function in these people? We are exposed to an endless number of what, on the microscopic level, are fairly sharp textile fibers, and I can picture that if someone had a genetic problem they might be better able to pierce the skin and cause inflammatory reactions. I'd like to see, say, an experiment where the patient goes to a test location and wears clothing all durably dyed one distinctive color and then is checked for whether fibers from these reemerge after they have thoroughly showered and returned home. Wnt (talk) 14:44, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Reread the conclusions of the CDC study, then, where they clearly state that it appears similar to delusional infestation. I'm not aware of any studies in regards to "epidermal barrier" disorders and, frankly, it's a completely ridiculous notion. Anyone who had skin that could be significantly punctured by microscopic textile fibers would have much bigger problems than Morgellons; they'd deglove their feet every time they put on socks, for example.

The unanimous consensus of the mainstream medical community is that Morgellons sufferers are delusional (BLP violation redacted). Not only is it against WP standards to give quarter to a fringe viewpoint in this article, it's also not an ethical thing to do when we know the sufferers would take such pandering as a reinforcement of their delusion. 69.23.116.182 (talk) 08:52, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

considering a fringe viewpoint is the Subject of the article, perhaps it would be logical to include their story rather than marginalizing and ridiculing them.Usernameamanda (talk) 04:07, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

as stated by the page on identifying reliable sources, we must make sure that all majority and significant minority views are published. Yet this article verges on insulting and does not include any substantial coverage of the numerous formal studies which found that morgellons is a real condition. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Usernameamanda (talk • contribs) 05:56, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

It would certainly seem appropriate to perform such a study on Morgellons patients but to my knowledge it has never been done. Agree that nuances of meaning should be especially important to wiki editors. Sierraparis (talk) 06:19, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Please keep discussions focused on suggestions to improve the page.137.111.13.200 (talk) 04:45, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

off-topic - please don't use article Talk for this
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Yes, 137 ....I sure do hope you can do that . Maybe your posts won't disappear so quickly that way. We are interested input as far as improving the page so try to stay focused if you can. I'm preoccupied on other topics this week but will be back soon. Sierraparis (talk) 01:18, 7 August 2013 (UTC) I believe you've been warned about the content of your posts, and the general tone of your interactions here. If you have nothing to offer other than attempts to disrupt discussions aimed at improving the page then you should reconsider posting comments on this page in the future. This talk page has endured enough antagonism, it can do without your continued efforts.137.111.13.200 (talk) 02:04, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

To be clear, the conclusion of that paper I cited [3] was "We were not able to conclude based on this study whether this unexplained dermopathy represents a new condition, as has been proposed by those who use the term Morgellons, or wider recognition of an existing condition such as delusional infestation, with which it shares a number of clinical and epidemiologic features" That sentence seems unambiguously and deliberately to avoid giving any support for either side of the debate here. Wnt (talk) 17:46, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

That is not the conclusion of the study you cited. That single (out-of-context) sentence is pulled from the "discussion" section. The "conclusions" section of the study quite clearly states the researchers found it similar to delusional infestation (which they also state at the end of the "discussion" section). 69.23.116.182 (talk) 20:53, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

I think you may be reading a bit too much into a single sentence from the conclusion, and possibly mistaking its emphasis. Essentially, the authors are admitting the impossibility of proving a negative—absent a perfect test for delusional infestation or somatization, it will always be impossible to fully rule out the presence of an unusually difficult-to-detect pathogen or other underlying organic cause for the symptoms. Then, of course, there's the rather subtle emphasis the authors have chosen to place on the different parts of that sentence through their choice of references—the first part of their statement, talking about Morgellons, has no footnotes; the second half of their statement, involving delusional infestation, has six references.

But really, it is the sentences which follow your quote which are the most illuminating. I have reproduced the entirety of the remainder of the article in italics below.

We found little on biopsy that was treatable, suggesting that the diagnostic yield of skin biopsy, without other supporting clinical evidence, may be low.

That is, imaginary worms don't show up on H&E, and you shouldn't waste time or money on a pointless procedure.

However, we did find among our study population co-existing conditions for which there are currently available therapies (drug use, somatization).

Half of the patients showed evidence of drug use, while two-thirds had (to use Wikipedia's description) a "tendency to experience and communicate psychological distress in the form of somatic symptoms".

These data should assist clinicians in tailoring their diagnostic and treatment approaches to patients who may be affected. In the absence of an established cause or treatment, patients with this unexplained dermopathy may benefit from receipt of standard therapies for co-existing medical conditions and/or those recommended for similar conditions such delusions infestation.

The authors think it's likely enough that these patients are delusional that doctors should probably treat them on that assumption. (The footnotes accompanying the last sentence bolster this interpretation.) The authors' opinions and conclusions on the existence of Morgellons seem far from equivocal. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 22:27, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't see it that way - I think you're reading more into it than is there. They say "On the PAI, 63% (25/40) of case-patients had clinically significant elevations (T>70) in scores for one or more of the clinical domains, with somatic concerns the most frequent (63%)". I won't pretend I understand the psychiatry, nor did I look into it, but I doubt the somatic concerns on the brochure rise to the level of proving the somatization that you link to. To be sure, they give some strong evidence - that they tried to find parasites in 20-odd biopsies and failed. They give what is almost a very damning piece of data: " When back lesions were present, there was usually sparing of a dumbbell-shaped area in the center of the back" (with back lesions in 68% of patients). But "usually" leaves open the suggestion that there are some patients with lesions where they couldn't pick at them! Now to be clear, I don't think anyone is disputing that there are some, perhaps most, of people with some of this loosely defined set of symptoms having a psychological reason, but that doesn't prove there isn't something else causing some of the other cases, even the most definitive cases.

Of course, all this is an example of why we don't want to over-interpret primary sources. We should stick to exactly what they say, and what they say, in their conclusion, is that they couldn't tell. Wnt (talk) 00:22, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm still unsure why this discussion is taking place under the topic name of ANI Discussion, but nonetheless- there are now numerous secondary sources which review the findings and conclusions of the CDC study, and the consensus on that is that the study indicated that Morgellons is most likely a form of delusional infestation. We need not parse the words of the authors of a primary source when there are researchers publishing in the field who have done that for us. We can state the general conclusions, and use the secondary sources as further references for readers to use if they are inclined to challenge the interpretation.137.111.13.200 (talk) 02:02, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Agreed this should be split off from the ANI notification, so I've done that and created a new section heading for this thread. Zad68 02:20, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Because I was commenting on how people were handling this, rather than directly editing on the subject, I haven't gone hunting for other secondary sources - right now, we have [4] which is NBC News, which I feel in this case has misstated its summary of the paper (others would point to MEDRS - I don't particularly like that policy but this is admittedly the sort of case it addresses), one apparent dead link, and [5] which temperately declares "This comprehensive study of an unexplained apparent dermopathy demonstrated no infectious cause and no evidence of an environmental link. There was no indication that it would be helpful to perform additional testing for infectious diseases as a potential cause. Future efforts should focus on helping patients reduce their symptoms through careful attention to treatment of co-existing medical, including psychiatric conditions, that might be contributing to their symptoms." Now nobody here is denying that psychiatric conditions can be a cause of declared cases of "Morgellons" - as the CDC says, these might be contributing - but nothing in this dataset rules out the chance of some other non-psychiatric condition.

The reason why I'm a bit dogged on this point is that science is hard. Think of how many years some of us heard people talking about how "stress will give you an ulcer" before at last someone found Helicobacter pylori and suddenly got a handle on a huge number of ulcers and cancers. It does a disservice to take one study that explicitly says it didn't close the case and use that to give the public the impression there's no more interesting research that might be doable. (I mean, with personal genome sequences under $1000, the sufferers could actually do groundbreaking research on their own, checking for aberrant cytoskeletal proteins or cytokines...) Wnt (talk) 02:55, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

While you're right about science being hard, that's not the point; on the contrary, WP would've properly reflected the "stress causes ulcers" consensus until Marshall & Warren made their discovery. That's just how our sourcing works. -- Scray (talk) 03:31, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Those numerous WP:MEDRES sources should be cited in the article. Right now the secondary source (ref 9) for the cdc study is not WP:MEDRS acceptable as it's a news article.

Another problem is the Mayo study section The Mayo study doesn't even mention Morgellons and has a different case definition (some of its references do mention Morgellons). The secondary MedPage Today news article for that study (ref 65) doesn't mention Morgellons either. The CNN news article (ref 66) does, but not directly from the study or its authors, and it isn't WP:MEDRS acceptable either. Ward20 (talk) 03:03, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, user DrGao already brought up Helicobacter pylori... The secondary sources I am referring to are scientific papers, not popular media. If the criticism is that these sources aren't used on the page then I agree with the criticism. But that has nothing to do with the CDC not concluding that Morgellons is most likely a form of delusional infestation, whether it falls under the category of DP or whether it is a separate form of DI.137.111.13.200 (talk) 08:54, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

By all means, if someone has found other good secondary sources about this, add them! As contentious as this topic has been, people shouldn't be holding out on the sources that have influenced their opinions - it makes it much harder to generate consensus. Wnt (talk) 11:35, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Meanwhile, it looks like the article is losing sources rather than gaining them. [6] WP:MEDDATE is not written as a call to delete old sources, but to find new ones! The way some most? people interpret WP:MEDRS is that new sources can't be added unless they're confirmed, old sources need to be deleted, studies aren't to be trusted, news is inaccurate, and unsourceable articles should be gotten rid of entirely... Wnt (talk) 14:09, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

@ 137.111.13.200, The numerous secondary scientific papers sources which review the findings and conclusions of the CDC study don't seem to be cited in the article. Would you please list them so they can be included? Thanks. Ward20 (talk) 02:29, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

"A recent study by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) did not find a medical or infectious cause for this condition, pointing out that these patients are similar to patients with DOP.6"- Patients labeled with delusions of parasitosis compose a heterogenous group: A retrospective study from a referral center, Reichenberg et al., 2013.

"Recently, the long-awaited study by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) in 115 patients from North California with self-diagnosed ‘Morgellons disease’ (called ‘unexplained dermopathy’ in the publication) found no evidence of an infectious process, as based on skin biopsies, extensive laboratory tests (e.g. Borrelia burgdorferi antibodies), and analyses of hair and the specimens.16 The skin lesions were ‘most consistent with excoriations or chronic irritation, some with evidence of secondary infection’. Solar elastosis was found in 51% of cases. Remarkably, hair analysis in a subgroup of 40 cases showed use of illicit drugs in 50% of cases (opiates and benzodiazepines > cannabinoids > amphetamines > other). This important study showed that Morgellons disease should best be seen as a form of DI."- Delusional infestation and the specimen sign: a European multicentre study in 148 consecutive cases- Freudenmann et al., 2012.

These deal primarily with the conclusions of the primary source while others tend to deal with the methodologies and epidemiological dimensions of the study/sample. This is a growing list.137.111.13.200 (talk) 06:12, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the links. I'd like to read the articles but they are behind paywalls. They are primary studies but better than what is referenced in the article now I believe. Ward20 (talk) 09:00, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

They are secondary sources in relation to the CDC primary source, as they form a lit review. I pasted the relevant sections, in case they were behind paywalls. They are copy and pasted verbatim.137.111.13.200 (talk) 01:37, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

I tend to agree a primary study might be a secondary source for a review of a different primary study, but I have seen resistance to that in medical articles. I personally don't feel comfortable editing from snippets of articles without reviewing the whole article for context. Ward20 (talk) 06:18, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

There is resistance against much of wikipedia's policies, but the guidelines for secondary sources support the inclusion of lit reviews in introductions to primary studies. I'm unsure what it means though for you to be uncomfortable editing based on information you aren't in possession of. Is the suggestion that someone who is in possession of it should edit, or that you won't be comfortable with that unless you personally verify it?137.111.13.200 (talk) 23:47, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

"There is resistance against much (sic) of wikipedia's policies...." Primarily by people unable to come up with reliable third-party sources able to support their agenda. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 01:17, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

I meant to imply that much of each of the guidelines are challenged, though perhaps I left too much unspoken.124.170.214.179 (talk) 11:32, 14 August 2013 (UTC)AKA 137.111.13.200

@124.170.214.179. I try not to edit an article without reviewing the whole source for context of the material. IMO It's always good to see editing from persons who have access to hard to obtain sources as long as an accurate representation of the content with its original context is presented. Also, it's very difficult to get consensus when editing medical articles like this where POVS from sources are different. Ward20 (talk) 19:35, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Hypothesis About the Fibers

'I believe this section can be improved . Currently it uses unpublished material which does not meet Wikipedia standards. Published papers in Medical Journals out weigh unpublished material as well as popular press. Do you agree? Sierraparis (talk) 07:25, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Which material in the section is cited to unpublished sources? AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:41, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Rather than playing the disingenuous "Do you agree?" game, why don't you just tell us what change you are proposing? Trying to hide a specific agenda behind a vague question as some sort of gotcha! trap isn't helpful. Identify the published/unpublished material in the paragraph that you would like to preserve/remove. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:26, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Agree with TOAT, please propose a specific article content change so we can discuss it. Zad68 14:51, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Same here, put forth something please. Dbrodbeck (talk) 16:09, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

The first paragraph discussing research contributions by Dr. Randy Wymore, OSU....I don't see anything in published medical literature. Correct me if I am wrong but I don't find any medical journal publications on these findings. Even the Tulsa Crime Lab information remains unpublished. I think this should be removed due to lack of credible publications. Also in paragraph 2, the statement about peripheral nerve endings. This originates from the Dallas Observer which is not a credible source. No, there was no "trap" intended whatsoever. Sierraparis (talk) 20:09, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

If there is a need for this section it would perhaps be better placed directly after the section about the role of the internet, if not a part of that section. Some of the sources discussing the transmission of symptoms through popular media (matchbox sign, theories about fibers, etc) might also be pertinent there.137.111.13.200 (talk) 07:39, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

this would be a great place to include the research done by the Carnicorn Institute on the chemical breakdown of the fibers http://www.carnicominstitute.org/articles/a_working_hypothesis.htm I feel that as the fibers are such a big part of this issue, this section is necessary but could use so e concrete information like that from Carnicorn's study. A placement after the role of the Internet section would be inappropriate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Usernameamanda (talk • contribs) 06:13, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, we don't consider research websites as reliable sources, especially when the site is named after the primary researcher and all their papers are expressing a fringe view on a single topic. Find some peer-reviewed studies published in reputable medical journals. 69.23.116.182 (talk) 06:20, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

What does the name of the site have to do with it? It is a hypothesis and a very clearly stated one with all the evidence shown in the paper. Medical journals are not taking up the case, but considering this IS a fringe topic I feel the viewpoints ought to be expressed. I can see no reasonto shoot down such a well written paper which is on the topic we were discussing. Carnicorn is one of the leading, indeed, one of the only researchers on the subject. By omitting all 'fringy' sources, you are omitting half of the story and half of the truth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Usernameamanda (talk • contribs) 06:29, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Please read WP:RS, followed by WP:MEDRS. Those pages explain what sort of things we consider reliable sources for articles and medical articles, respectively. We do not include fringe research just because the majority of sufferers agree with it. 69.23.116.182 (talk) 06:50, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Considering the title of this section it would make a lot of sense to include it here. If a lot of media smack talk can be cited as a reference, why not say something like, The Carnicorn institute, which is an utterly disreputable source of information, did a five year long study using infrared technology which found the fibers to be made of ---. However, as the medical community is turning a blind eye to the topic and open minded dermatologists are being ostracized from the medical community, this study was not peer reviewed."

Usernameamanda (talk) 06:57, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps, akin to the section on this spreading through the Internet, there could be another section on these independent studies and their findings, taking into account that they are not considered reliable sources. There a certainly enough of them to constitute a separate section and they definitely comprise a large part of the issue. This would be a concession to the fringers who are on the whole insulted by this article, and yet continue to appease the beaureaucratic necessities of article editing. The article would feel much more rounded as a result. Even WebMD includes both sides of the issue in their article.Usernameamanda (talk) 07:15, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

There is no possibility of including such 'independent studies' in the way you suggest. This is an encyclopaedia, and by policy we base article content on the types of reliable sources already specified. We do not make 'concessions' to the promoters of fringe theories. Ever... AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:57, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, new to the game. Here is a peer reviewed pubmed study on the possible connection between filament formation and spirochetal infection which deserves to be included. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22253541Usernameamanda (talk) 20:38, 11 September 2013 (UTC)--Usernameamanda (talk) 20:38, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Please check the archives, that article has been discussed already. It does not meet WP:MEDRS. Dbrodbeck (talk) 20:46, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Secondary Source has Arrived

The article is lacking NPOV. This should be beyond sufficient as the secondary source we have previously been lacking. <https://www.dermquest.com/expert-opinions/clinical-updates/2013/morgellons-disease/>. I am suggesting that the wiki article be updated to include the viewpoints covered here in this very much mainstream publication on this very much mainstream Dermatology website. In fact, the entire article would be more accurate if it were similar to this. After all, if it's good enough for the highly esteemed international DermQuest Editorial Board with those from the U.S. being members American Academy of Dermatology, then surely it's good enough for Wikipedia. Sierraparis (talk) 05:06, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

It does appear that these specialists in the fields of dermatology and psychiatry have a much different interpretation of the CDC paper than the majority of the well seasoned Wikipedia editors. It seems to me that the authors of this article on DermQuest.com took the words literally as they are written in the CDC's conclusion.

Excerpt: "In 2012, the CDC published the results of a federally-funded study on Morgellons disease.9 Of the 115 patients studied, there was no detectable infectious agent found. Unidentified material was further analyzed by scanning electron microscopy with energy dispersive X-ray analysis; most materials collected were composed of cellulose: 63% had evidence of clinically significant somatic complaints, and 50% had drugs of abuse detected in hair samples. The authors explained that they were unable to conclude "whether this unexplained dermopathy represents a new condition… or wider recognition of an existing condition such as delusional infestation, with which it shares a number of clinical and epidemiologic features.

Criticisms of the study focus on the recruitment biases in that patients asked to participate were already labeled as 'delusional.' They also limited patient enrollment to a specific geographic area, and excluded patients whose symptoms had existed for greater than 3 months.10 In contrast to the findings of the CDC, Middelveen and colleagues examined tissue from Morgellons patients and found keratin and collagen filaments.11

Apparently the authors understood the words "Unable to conclude" as meaning just exactly what it says. Essentially the CDC's paper was inconclusive on whether or not this unexplained Dermopathy represents a new condition or wider recognition of an existing condition........".

Note the authors also include criticisms of the CDC paper. Sierraparis (talk) 07:44, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

The majority of their sources are articles that we already know to be of poor quality, because we went over (and over and over) them with the previous fringe-view advocates. I'm not seeing a good reason to consider this article nor publication as reputable, especially when they make the same obvious mistakes in their claims about the conclusion of the CDC study (such as it not being the conclusion at all... just using the word "conclude" does not magically teleport a sentence in the "discussion" section of the article to the "conclusions" section), which we've also addressed repeatedly. 69.23.116.182 (talk) 08:32, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Peer-reviewed? Medline indexed? Ad nauseum?210.84.29.211 (talk) 10:45, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

It looks like it is a website run by a drug company, Galderma. Dbrodbeck (talk) 11:47, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

That is exactly what it is. "Galderma S.A. discovers, develops, and markets therapeutic, corrective, and aesthetic solutions for dermatology patients. The company provides drugs, sprays, shampoos, lotions, and therapeutic skin care products for treating skin, hair, and nail diseases, including acne, rosacea, psoriasis and steroid-responsive dermatoses, onychomycosis, skin cancer, pigmentary disorders, and skin senescence; pharmaceutical products for the United States markets; and non-prescription products for the United States and international markets. In addition, it offers clinical batches for trials in the United States and internationally. Galderma S.A. supplies its products through sales representatives in Europe, the Middle East, Africa, Australia, Asia, and South America, as well as ships to Brazil and various Latin American countries. The company was founded in 1981 and is based in Lausanne, Switzerland. It has research and development locations in Sophia Antipolis, France; Cranbury, New Jersey; Montreal, Canada; and Tokyo, Japan. The company has production facilities in Hortolandia, Brazil. Galderma S.A. operates as a subsidiary of L'Oreal SA and Nestl? S.A.". Not WP:RS for such matters, never mind WP:MEDRS. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:04, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

That doesn't seem like it is a reputable source. Sierraparis, how did you come across it? Is this a source that is often used by sufferers of the condition? Maybe it is relevant in that light. Would it qualify for inclusion in the role of the internet section, possibly?210.84.29.211 (talk) 12:32, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

It was posted on Aug 20, so I doubt it has had any impact yet. Dbrodbeck (talk) 12:41, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Unless this website is discussed elsewhere, I see no reason why it should deserve mention in the article. It is neither WP:MEDRS compliant nor neutral, and Wikipedia isn't here to provide links to material clearly intended to promote a cosmetics/pharmaceuticics company. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:52, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Two points: First, I agree with the others that the reliability (according to Wikipedia standards) of this source is suboptimal, although perhaps I don't think this is quite as questionable a source as other editors here think it is. Generally we're looking for sources to have undergone independent peer review, and be published by a reputable publisher. This site does have an editorial board with appropriate-looking qualifications, and does say that its articles are reviewed. As a publisher, its association with a drug company does raise concerns. I've seen other sources published on site associated with product companies before, and the general view of them is dim; articles from independent publishers, like dedicated journals, are better valued. The credentials of this article's authors, Reichenberg and Magid, are appropriate, and I actually quite like the fact that it's a team of a dermatologist and a psychiatrist. Their list of sources does include Middelveen and uses stuff from the Charles E. Holman Foundation, but does so appropriately--they're discussing the state of what's been published, they're not actually using the conclusions of them. I might actually use this source if no others were available to cover the topic I was interested in, but I'd be careful to qualify and attribute its use in the article.

That said, I do not find the conclusions of this source to be really all that out of line with the other secondary sources available. The authors review the history and current thinking about Morgellons, touch on the self-diagnosis and patient advocacy group phenomenon, and clearly state that the CDC found no infectious agents. Sierraparis, what is the proposed edit? I think you're driving toward adding a mention to our article that although the CDC did not find any infectious agents, they stopped short of concluding that there definitely was not an infectious agent. It appears they stopped short of saying that for political reasons, and the politics surrounding the study are covered in our article. Would this addition cover it:

The researchers could not find any explanation for sensations participants reported under their skin and suggested these could be “delusional infestation,” wherein people falsely believe their bodies are being invaded by small organisms,but stopped short of concluding that the "dermopathy represents a new condition".

We can do this without having to use the Dermquest source. Zad68 13:11, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Not that I trust these assertions but I don't know why some people think lack of evidence is proof it is real. Its completely illogical to come to that conclusion. Also there are tens of thousands of species (from bacteria to animals) that are undocumented. So it really isn't a significant finding if there is a new bacteria found or something like it. No one is happy to be told you are delusional. I think changing the name to something that doesn't make someone automatically mentally ill would do wonders in accepting its not an infection. But to get back to my first point the evidence is mostly against it being a disease and to make magnificent claims there should be unequivocal evidence to support it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:B:A3C0:7:A046:CE7:D69F:A7C6 (talk) 01:15, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Morgellons: a novel dermatological perspective as the multisystem infective disease borreliosis

I just found this reference but I don't know if it is relevant : Morgellons: a novel dermatological perspective as the multisystem infective disease borreliosis http://f1000research.com/articles/2-118/v1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.217.65.205 (talk) 04:21, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

It's not. F1000 journals fail to meet WP:RS criteria, let alone WP:MEDRS. 69.23.116.182 (talk) 06:02, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

See also [7] N^oformation ^Talk 07:52, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Agrobacterium & Morgellons Disease

There is this source in Science in Society: http://www.i-sis.org.uk/full/agrobacteriumAndMorgellonsFull.php reprinted in part at globalresearch here: http://www.globalresearch.ca/agrobacterium-morgellons-disease-a-gm-connection/9891 and also here: http://www.morgellons-research.org/morgellons/agrobacteriumAndMorgellonsFull.pdf

In short it details the results of a study showing that samples for all with Morgellons tested positive for Agrobacterium, and those without all tested negative. Within the references section of the paper itself are several articles which detail the case for an association with Agrobacterium. 65.95.180.50 (talk) 04:01, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Still doesn't meet WP:MEDRS. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 05:16, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Pathology

It should also be noted that there is no pattern (or outbreaks) to identify where the disease started and moved out from like you would expect from a contagious illness. It just shows you that some people will never accept scientific facts no matter how much there is against them. Albeit no one likes to be called delusional when you have real ulcers but there are explanations as to where the ulcers and fiber come from. I don't have a citation although I don't think most reasonable people will argue that contagious diseases disperse randomly in a region. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:B:A3C0:7:A046:CE7:D69F:A7C6 (talk) 01:05, 26 September 2013 (UTC)