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James Robinson (filk musician)

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Does not appear to pass WP:MUSICBIO or WP:GNG. The albums appear to be self released. Pegasus awards are given from a single convention, and there are no criteria for nomination, or who can vote. Similarly the Filk hall of fame is an award given inside the con community and has zero notability outside fandom. Gaijin42 (talk) 20:19, 21 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Obvious keep - Most awards for genre music get little notice outside the fandom of that genre. By this argument, any awards other than Grammies are worthless because they are only voted on by people who listen to that kind of music. WP:MUSICBIO #7: "one of the most prominent representatives of a notable style". Within filk music, a recognized musical genre, Robinson is quite famous. And the "self-released" accusation is just plain false: Dr. Jane's Science Notes was released by Off Centaur, for example. --Orange Mike | Talk 20:53, 21 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Respectfully, Off Centaur still wouldn't meet #5 of WP:MUSICBIO, Pegasus certainly doesn't meet #8. #7 could possibly be met if filk is truly notable, but since it isn't actually a style of music, but just a social mechanism for making and enjoying music, I'm not sure that would qualify. This is one club, giving out an award from inside the club, for basically having an open mic jam sessions . Gaijin42 (talk) 21:57, 21 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Lean toward Keep; as filk is a style of music defined by fandom, and, although the Pegasus awards are parallel to the People's Choice Awards, as anyone can vote, the Filk Hall of Fame is selected by a self-selected, but recognized, "jury". I'd put the Filk Hall of Fame as meeting WP:MUSICBIO #8. That, plus, the fact she actually does have a recognized (but, according to her song, incorrect) theory on Plesiosaur locomotion, seems to add sufficient notability. See http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,5&q=%22Jane+Robinson%22+plesiosaur , specifically the reference in http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-642-53748-6_9 (although not in the free section) " Jane Robinson ( 1975 ) who published the first ..." . As I cannot access the full content, I cannot be sure that this is adequate, but it appears she (per his own choice of gender recognition) was recognized as an expert in Plesiosaur locomotion at one time. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 02:19, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Disclaimer: I am a personal friend of the subject, so I should keep WP:COI in mind. — Arthur Rubin (talk)

Are you saying you think that 2 papers would push them over the bar of WP:NACADEMICS? (One of them was cited 71 times, but we probably should go ask the biologiy or palentology wikiprojects what their general standard for citation threshhold is. The first source google has as citing that paper itself has 622 citations. Using the data you provided, s/he has an h-index of 2?) And that the Filk hall of fame is " a major music award, such as a Grammy, Juno, Mercury, Choice or Grammis award."? Gaijin42 (talk) 14:29, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Non-notable. Lack of coverage in reliable sources (filk websites do not automatically count as reliable sources). Unless there is coverage which I missed on a Google search and which the article editors have not provided. It's ok to get coverage within a niche community if that community produces reliable publications - e.g. contemporary experimental jazz has a miniscule following but still produces learned publications with expert writers. --Colapeninsula (talk) 10:41, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep - the category:filkers is small, and this is probably one of the more notable ones. Bearian (talk) 14:12, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If that's true, the others should surely all be deleted. This one has 4 refs, all which appear to be self hosted websites of filk/fandom clubs. Not a single mainstream reference, not even local newspaper garage-band type coverage . Gaijin42 (talk) 14:29, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia generally, at WP:RS, and WP:MUSICBIO specifically, does not require specific types of sourcing. Your logic would require the elimination of otherwise notable persons merely because they filked. I'm just asserting that this person passes barely, but is most notable as a filker; otherwise I would have !voted !full !keep. Bearian (talk) 15:28, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think we are probably beating a dead horse at this point,so I will let the conversation go on without me from here on most likely. you are asserting that these filk websites meet WP:RS? They seem like WP:SPS highly WP:QUESTIONABLE sources to me. WP:MADEUP for the most part. Certainly I am not advocating deletion BECAUSE someone filks - what someone's hobby (or more for some) is is of no relevance to notability. More power to them for having something in their life they love, and getting recognized for it from their friends. The question here is is that of encyclopedic value. There are a great many clubs and organizations that give out awards to their members, many national and international with membership and notability much higher than fandom and filking. Is being given such an award by the org, with no notice outside the org, truly a sign of notability? That seems like a massive expansion of WP:GNG (or the other notability guidelines in case of genre clubs like music here) to me. Boy scout troop leader hall of fame? New York Life Chairman's Circle? costumecon hall of fame? Pokemon hall of fame Has anyone other than the filk community written in any significant way about this award, the people who won the award, or even really filking itself? (Can I major in filk at some conservatory? Any music historians writing papers/books about it? A ken burns style documentary about famous filkers?Gaijin42 (talk) 16:15, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Has anyone other than the filk community written in any significant way about...filking?" Will NPR do? http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4967052 How about Texas A&M? http://library.tamu.edu/about/news-and-events/2014/01/Science%20Fiction%20Collection%20adds%20Filk%20Materials%20as%20Deeper%20than%20Swords%20Exhibit%20Closes.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.77.222.66 (talk) 01:01, 24 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The notability question seems to require the question of whether Filk music is a notable (if alternative) genre. If so, then the Pegasus Award or Filk Hall of Fame would be notable awards, per WP:ANYBIO #1 or WP:MUSICBIO #8. Also, whether he might qualify under WP:NMUSIC#Others #4 the genre being Filk Music, and the sub-sub-genre being paleontology. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:58, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 21:29, 23 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Science-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 21:29, 23 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 21:29, 23 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 21:29, 23 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Forgive me for commenting as I haven't been on Wikipedia in years, but I think I can add to the discussion. When I produced Shockwave Radio, I played the Dr. Jane CDs often. Not merely for the filking (which were separate shows) but for the science commentary. At the time when it was making news, her song "Who Owns The Bones" about Sue the Dinosaur was a very useful overview. Very few of her songs are what I would call pure "filk" (parody of another song by and for science fiction fans). Most are humorous, and stand on their own to an educated audience. The Dr. Jane CDs are aimed at college/college graduate audience, closer to Tom Lehrer than most Pegasus winners I know of. Baron Dave Romm (talk) 01:12, 24 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Keep At the risk of releasing the deletion trolls, are you next planning on eliminating all references to the Hugo and Nebula Awards and any authors who have won them, on the grounds that you consider science fiction awards only notable within their own field? Filk is a muscial subgenre that has been around for many years; just because you don't personally like it doesn't mean you should start deleting it. Kevin Standlee (talk) 01:18, 24 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 22: / Line 22: @@
 :<small class="delsort-notice">Note:  This debate has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Bands and musicians|list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions]]. [[User:Gene93k|• Gene93k]] ([[User talk:Gene93k|talk]]) 21:29, 23 April 2014 (UTC)</small>
 *'''Keep''' Forgive me for commenting as I haven't been on Wikipedia in years, but I think I can add to the discussion.  When I produced Shockwave Radio, I played the Dr. Jane CDs often.  Not merely for the filking (which were separate shows) but for the science commentary.  At the time when it was making news, her song "Who Owns The Bones" about Sue the Dinosaur was a very useful overview.  Very few of her songs are what I would call pure "filk" (parody of another song by and for science fiction fans).  Most are humorous, and stand on their own to an educated audience.  The Dr. Jane CDs are aimed at college/college graduate audience, closer to Tom Lehrer than most Pegasus winners I know of. [[User:Baron Dave|Baron Dave Romm]] ([[User talk:Baron Dave|talk]]) 01:12, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
+*'''Keep''' At the risk of releasing the deletion trolls, are you next planning on eliminating all references to the Hugo and Nebula Awards and any authors who have won them, on the grounds that you consider science fiction awards only notable within their own field? Filk is a muscial subgenre that has been around for many years; just because you don't personally like it doesn't mean you should start deleting it. [[User:Kastandlee|Kevin Standlee]] ([[User talk:Kastandlee|talk]]) 01:18, 24 April 2014 (UTC)