Talk:Fenian

This page is associated with a controversial issue and I do not think it confirms to the neutrality policy - the article states that Fenian "is a term used by unionists". I think an amendment should be made to this page, similar to the page for taig to state that this term is used by some unionists, and not all of them. I consider myself a unionist and do not use this term.

Well, I come from the west of Scotland, and I have certainly heard people use it as a derogatory term for Roman Catholics, in fact this is the first time I have heard it claimed that it only applies specifically to Celtic supporters. PatGallacher 16:47, 2005 May 17 (UTC)

I also come from the west of Scotland, fenian is considered to be like swearing, I have never heard the word being used in any other context other than as an insult to Celtic supporters. I have also heard the word being used by Celtic supporters about themselves, for example in the song: "Bold fenian men". I have heard some claim that the word means Catholic, could it be that this is a crude attempt to accuse others of sectarianism?

Here's a link to the version of that song with which I'm familiar: http://sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/dtrad/pages/tiGLNSFEN;ttGLNSFEN.html RB 12Dec05

Well, I have heard the term used a number of ways, but usually as a derogatory term for Catholics. I'm not disputing that it can be a strong insult, almost like a swearword. It may be that some Catholics use the term ironically, a bit like the way some blacks use "nigger", but this still means the term is primarily negative. In the song "Glorio to the bold Fenian men", as anyone familiar with the song will know, the term is used in its orginal meaning of the Irish Republican Brotherhood, specifically it is a reference to their rising of the mid-19th century, I may be able to dig up the full words from somewhere. PatGallacher 12:32, 2005 May 19 (UTC)

It may mean Catholic, it certainly is not a word that you would use in most people's company as it would be considered offensive. The ironic nature may be true, maybe this could be mentioned in the article. Also is the term ever used against other Roman Catholics, for example people of Italian origin?

As someone who took Canadian history in a Canadian higschool I'll say that this appears more or less like it did in our history books. Also I've never even heard of it being an offensive term. As far as we know it's a specific political movement. I got a good chuckled. From my perspective it'd be like considering "NRA" to be offesive --Anonymous Canadian

Part of my family are Italian Roman Catholic, and there is a large Italian contingent in my town, and I have never heard the word 'Fenian' to be used against them, or in any context which pertains to them. My belif is that Fenian has taken on something of a derogtory tone in that, as 'Negro' was used to describe a black person and 'Nigger' was the corrupted insult -- which can be seen in books like 'To Kill A Mockingbird' and literature written about that time -- Fenian may be used to describe an Irish nationalist but, especially in cases such as Old Firm games, calling someone a "f--king Fenian" is most probably not a compliment.

My great-grandfather was proud to have taken part in the Fenian invasion of Canada. If he saw no insult in the word, neither do I. It may be different in UK, but it seems that on the west side of the Atlantic the word has no openly negative connotation. Besdies, "Fenian" could never become "the f-word!" --KevinOB 23:33, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Most Irish would consider "Fenian" to be an archaic term - it certainly fell out of common use by the 1920s in Ireland. Those who would in earlier times have been drawn the Fenians, would now have been drawn to the Irish Republican Brotherhood (early 1900's) or the Irish Republican Army (late 1900s). Current usage is (as mentioned) purely reserved as an intense insult by sectarians toward Catholics or Irish in Scotland and Northern Ireland - effectively alleging the share beliefs and goals of the Irish Republican Army.

To people from the Republic of Ireland, such an archaic insult, would be as amusing - and confusing - as an American might find being called "A bloody colonial" by someone from England -- JohnPLooney 2 July 2005

In Ireland,the word is not used too much in the south but when it is it not as a slag.It is used as a secterian offense in troubled parts of the 6 counties.--Fenian Swine 00:12, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

The Fenians

There is a large historical literature on the Fenians, eg Comerford, The Fenians in Context and forthcoming work by M J Kelly, The Fenian Ideal and Irish Nationalism. The Fenians were associated with political violence in the sense that they were republican revolutionaries, to a considerable extent inspired by Mazzinian and other contemporary republican movements. The name refers to ancient, somewhat mythological Irish warriors. Some Fenians approved the term, others prefered to be known as members of the Irish Republican Brotherhood. The IRB survived into the 1920s and was behind the 1916 rising in Dublin, which is sometimes and not wholly inaccurately referred to as a Fenian rising. Although British troops in Northern Ireland and [yes, some] did turn the word into a form of abuse, next to no-one identified as Fenian during the NI troubles, except, perhaps, metaphorically. As a term of abuse it is sectarian, although the Fenians themselves were opposed to 'priests in politics', believing they should stick to spiritual realm, holding that Irish nationalism was a secular ideology that should appeal to patriotic Irishmen, Catholic and Protestant alike. European religious politics in the 1860s were pretty fraught, with the Papacy in a very vulnerable position, and it was difficult for a movement mainly comprised of lower class Irish Catholics to maintain these ideals. Strangely enough, Irish Catholics today sometimes call each other Fenians as a tease ('you old Fenian' or suchlike) if someone is expressing old-fashioned nationalist views[for what it's worth, I've heard this]. So, it's a word with a complex history that, to my knowledge, is specific to Ireland and the Irish abroad and has no wider historical/Catholic resonances.

"Our duty is to deAnglicanise Ireland, Gaelicise Ireland and Catholicise Ireland" J. O'Mahony Fenian Movement

Cleanup

This page has a bunch of information that's already at the Fenian Brotherhood article, and other places. Since we have a link to that article, and it's explained and organized much better there, I'm going to remove it from here. If anyone has a problem with that discuss it here soon. I'm also going to remove the accuracy tag. -R. fiend 21:18, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

Irish Culture and the Fenians

Here's a serious question: what was the general position of the Fenians with regard to Irish culture? I remember distinctly Michael Laffan telling us that the Fenians, at least in the early stages, had little time for any cultural revival. I was very surprised at his claim as like many, if not the vast majority, of Irish people I took the epithet 'Fenian' with an accepting smile. Cambridge-educated Laffan, for his part, has a personal hostility to the Irish language and other such things so that could have marred the accuracy of his comments (and he was certainly wrong when he claimed the term 'Irish' for the language only emerged in the late 19th century). Anybody have any more on this point?

POV

This page needs a major rewrite for NPOV. It reads like a pamphlet! --Guinnog 07:49, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that you should be the person who does it, you don't notice your own POV slipping into the article. Whilst the article was in a bad state, I do think that the argument should be put that Rangers fans do see a section of Celtic fans as being vocal supporters of terrorism, you removed all traces of this argument. Your changes that created this,

• "Despite the derogatory use of the term, some Loyalists maintain it does not refer to Catholics in general. Their logic is that former non-Catholic Celtic players such as Paul Lambert have not been spared this label by their opponents."

are shocking. Firstly not only some loyalists would put forward the opinion that the word fenian is not directly correlated to being Roman Catholic. Secondly Their Logic is an attempt to be confrontational and to lead the neutral reader to believe that the proceeding argument is false. Thirdly why change someones religion? It is not outwith the imagination of any reader to realise that Catholic and Protestant are disjunct religions.

Then we have this change

• " It is also claimed that Celtic supporters have used the term to deride Roman Catholics who play for Rangers, an example of this being when Celtic supporters sang to Chris Burke, 'Who's the fenian in the blue?'."

You changed it from stating that it was Ironic that a definite use of the word fenian to mean Roman Catholic comes from Celtic fans when they abuse a Rangers player. You changed this to starting with "it is also claimed that", do you dislike this claim? As not only do you request a citation specifically for this point but you also change the reading of the article, casting doubt on whether Celtic fans would ever abuse someone like this. --Roy Biv ( talk • contribs ) 04:07, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup of talk page

This talk page is desperate need of cleanup! How difficult is it for people to follow proper formatting? That mass of text at the top of the page is incomprehensible because formatting was not followed and titles were not used to differentiate between sections. As I can, I will begin cleaning it up. Assistance would be appreciated. ---Charles 03:36, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Using films as sources

I have removed the following from the article:

“ Some staunch supporters of Irish republicanism label themselves as "fenians". An example of this can be seen in the 1997 film The Devil's Own with Brad Pitt and Harrison Ford, where Pitt's character labels him and his sidekick as a pair of fenian bastards, both characters are republican terrorists. ”

It is not acceptable to use Hollywood movies as the basis for statements in Wikipedia; people in films can be made to say anything, regardless of whether it is accurate. Please see Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:Reliable sources and Wikipedia:No original research. Martin 14:52, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

In general, Roy Biv, please make sure that any future edits you make to this article are verifiable, and/or discuss them here first, before adding them. Otherwise it just makes work for others, who have to take it down again. Thanks. --Guinnog 16:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I actually disagree, I think if a film uses the word it reflects society. Whilst the film is obviously made up, I can't remember any uproar about the word fenian being used in this accepted context in the film. I therefore will add the original statement back in but say that it is still needing a quote. --Roy Biv ( talk • contribs ) 17:25, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Obviously the makers of the film knew that the word fenian was used in this context. The official Sinn Fein bookstore at http://www.sinnfeinbookshop.com/ sells a mug with the slogan "Still an unrepentant fenian bastard" on it. Sinn Fein are supporters of Irish Republicanism, they know what the word means. --Roy Biv ( talk • contribs ) 18:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Whether you actually disagree or not, this is not a discussion forum, Hollywood films are not reliable sources, and there not being any uproar about its use in a film is not in any way evidence that your statement is in any way true. Please take :'Some staunch supporters of Irish republicanism label themselves as "fenians"' down yourself; as well as being untrue and offensive, it isn't even sourced. --Guinnog 18:05, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Please see the source about the bookshop that I have given, in my last talk entry. --Roy Biv ( talk • contribs ) 18:10, 28 June 2006 (UTC)