Talk:Zinedine Zidane

Please do not add an accent to Zinedine. This accent does not exist in French. See below for sources.

Football or soccer ? Yes! Just to let everyone know that he is still playing he is not yet retired

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Thanks for the redirect, jheimans. I should have realized that a star of such magnitude would already have an article. --Ed Poor

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Shouldn't this be under "Zinédine Zidane" rather than "Zinedane Zidane". This conforms with Wiki's policy of using proper names. Any objections? Mandel 10:09, Aug 3, 2004 (UTC)

the correct spelling in France is "Zinedine", pronounced "Zindin". The incorrect spelling comes from journalists mispronoucing this name. see search "Prénom Zinedine"and site on the Arab Etymology of first names for references. Zidane himself has spoken up about the incorrect pronounciation and spelling of his name, according to the Europe1 Radio news in Paris.Musikfabrik 17:08, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

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We should also add an ambiguation for the Zidane of Final Fantasy 9... :) -Aya

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Just to let you all know I made a change from "Paris Saint-Germain's Enzo Francescoli" to "Olympique de Marseille's Enzo Francescoli". Francescoli never played for Paris Saint Germain but for Racing Club de Paris. After that he moved to Marseille. Since Zidane was a ballboy in Marseille, this makes more sense.I wank. Cheers! -- Teuv 22:26, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Requested move

• proposal: Zinedine Zidane → Zinédine Zidane. His proper name, as in French, and no objections are raised in the talk page after I proposed it. Mandel 14:50, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)

add: * Support or * Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation and a signature:"~~~~"

• Oppose --Philip Baird Shearer 19:14, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Support as long as there is a redirect from the unaaccented version --131.111.8.98 19:17, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC) 131.111.8.98 is an IP address belonging to one of the Cambridge University Web Cache Servers and as such is shared by at least several thousand distinct users.
• Oppose - Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles): In general, use the most commonly recognized English-language form of the name. Create redirections or disambiguations for other plausible links. violet/riga (t) 11:10, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

---Add any additional comments on the "Requested move" below this line ---

PBS may I know why you oppose? Mandel 19:33, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)

Common ENGLISH usage. Using www.google.co.uk (which differentiates between words with and without diacritics:

• about 132,000 English pages for "Zinedine Zidane"
• about 2,680 English pages for "Zinédine Zidane"

At the moment because of the lack of the name without diacritics the English Wikipedia article will not show up on a Google search in many English speaking countries. If the page stays where it is this can be fixed, but if it is moved to the French spelling the page is unlikely to keep the name "Zinedine Zidane" which is the common English spelling Philip Baird Shearer 21:10, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Zinédine Zidane redirects to Zinedine Zidane, so I don't suppose it matters, especially since there seems to be some debate about whether English or French should be preferred. As long as one redirects to the other, I'm neither for nor against. Seem a bit like a game of semantics to me. In fact, I didn't even know his name had a ´ until now. --Ben davison 21:58, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

He's French, not English. The same with Pele, there's an accent on his name in the article's title. Since one directs to the other, what's stopping us from using his proper name? If you should know, Zinedine Zidane will still be credited on Google. Try "Robert Pires" and "Wikipedia" -- you'll end up on the proper page anywhere. Your worry doesn't exist. Mandel 14:44, Mar 15, 2005 (UTC)

Pelé is a bad example, since "Pele" has an article different from "Pelé". --Dryazan 15:53, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

If you use http://www.google.co.uk ["Robert Pires" site:en.wikipedia.org] the page only shows up because of the subsection title "ROBERT PIRES SITES". Googles work diffrently in diffrent countries. If you use http://www.google.co.uk ["Zinedine Zidane" site:en.wikipedia.org] the Wikipedia page Zinedine Zidane does not show up because someone has changed the name to "Zinédine Zidane". Only those pages in Wikipedia which spell his name "Zinedine" show up. The same is true with other search engines like "Ask Jeeves Philip Baird Shearer 18:10, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Exactly. Since Robert Pires always direct to Robert Pirès, and Zinedine Zidane to Zinédine Zidane, the results will still show up in Google UK. I have tried "+Pires +Wikipedia" in Google UK, and it shows up. Mandel 20:52, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)

Template:Notmoved violet/riga (t) 09:45, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Several remarks. The accent should not be there at all, his name is Zinedine (pronounced Zin-din as previously noted. The accent is an invention of French journalists. Second, also as someone noted before, he is not English, but he is not Arab either, he is Berber. The transliteration of his name into Arabic at the beginning of the entry is not just unnecessary, it is plain wrong. There is absolutely no justification for it. Names in his parents' homeland, Algeria, are not registered in Arabic but in the Roman script and cannot change, except by presidential decree (a legacy of French colonial rule). The name therefore is Zinedine Zidane and cannot be anything else in Roman or any other script. Kusyel.

Greatest Player

It is inaccurate (or POV) to claim that Zidane is currently regarded as the best player in the world, as he does not hold the FIFA World Player of the Year award, nor is he being considered for the award in 2005. Obviously a three-time winner deserves his credit, thus I will change these statements to past tense if there are no objections. Karma Heretic 04:57, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Correct Spelling of Zinedine

There are no accents in this name in French (do a google search on "prenom Zinedine" and you'll see....). The accent comes from journalists who mispronounce this name, which should be pronounced "Zindin". The accent should be changed in the article. Musikfabrik 16:57, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

If I may differ

Zidane's name is of Arabic origin - زين الدين زيدان. As such, its CORRECT pronunciation is of the Arabic dialect which, when reflected onto the Anglo-Saxon language, is pronounced: "Zen-al-deen zedaan". I should know since I know the arabic language

More Pictures

Can someone please put more pictures of Zidane? There's only one picture over his profile. The article will look better with more pictures. Zarif 17:15, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Here are some-more

File:ZiZou.jpg

File:Zinedine Zidane-ar.jpg

Clubs before Cannes

Wasn't Zidane also part of some club whose name began with US before joining Cannes?

Zidane's religion

Nothing says he is Muslim, and naming his children christian names is on contradiction with describing him as "devout Muslim".

When he played for Juventus I remember in a TV interview he said that he said the Ayat al-Kursi before each game.

I am not sure what you would consider a Muslim name. Not all Muslims give their children Arabic names, in North Africa many people give their children Berber names that have no connection to Islam or the Koran, and in Turkey a lot if not most people have pre-Islamic Turkic names. Furthermore he didn't give his Children "Christian" names, he named them after his favorite footballers.

Zidane describes himself as a "non-practicing Muslim", which countless Muslims would describe themselves as, including myself. Not practicing does not equate to not practicing anything, and definitely does not equate to not believing. Further, his status as a Muslim is mentioned in countless articles because it is *notable*, being a controversial minority in France. This is evidenced by Salman Rushdie's quote: "[Zidane] has done more to improve France's attitude toward its Muslim minority.. than a thousand political speeches." Finally, players of a minority are referred to in every context, including, for example, Danish Kaneria's status as a Hindu on Pakistan's national team. If a Christian/Jew played for Turkey, his religion would be cited in any biography, whether he was practicing or not. I believe this controversy boils down to personal feelings towards Islam, and these should always be left out of Wikipedia. --Afinebalance 01:38, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I would also like to add that naming one's children non-Muslim names is not a contradiction of their beliefs, as Islam has no laws on what names should be chosen, as long as the meaning is positive. --Afinebalance 01:38, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

What is your point? He is a non-practicing muslim. Just like all of the Italian team squad, just like all of German's team squad, so should I then call all of them Christian? You are not NPOVing here. Chaldean 03:43, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Not relevant, he does not partake in public religious activity, lobbying ,etc.Blnguyen | rant-line 03:53, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Exactly, just like all of the Christian players. Thats why its silly to call these guys "French Muslim" or "Italian Christian" Chaldean 04:33, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

First, what is "public religious activity" and "lobbying"?! Give me a break. He is quoted as calling himself a non-practicing MUSLIM. Once again, like I said, his position as a minority player is what is notable, not the religion itself. Religion would not be cited for any Saudi/Turkish/Tunisian players for example. --Afinebalance 14:26, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, Zidane does not use his public position to promote Islam etc, etc. eg, he doesn't do photo-posters promoting Ramadan (as some Bollywood Muslim actors/actresses do), he doesn't encourage youngsters to become more religious as a way of improving their skills (Saeed Anwar the Pakistani batsman and now youth coach thinks that being a "good muslim" is prerequisite to being successful) and he has not become a religious commmunity spokesperson or an endorser of an Islamic political party (eg, Vitali Klitschko appeared on stage to endorse Viktor Yuschencko as Ukraine President).Blnguyen | rant-line 00:00, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Wow. So Muslim athletes use their public position to promote Islam or they're not *really* Muslim? These assumptions hint at the platform some individuals are really standing on. I also still fail to see how this refutes the fact that he has *descended from a Muslim family*, which is all that is being referred to. There are countless articles across all mediums that refer to him as a Muslim, he himself is quoted as saying he is a Muslim, he has said in a TV interview that he prays a surah from the Qur'an before every match. Having said that, this is all overshadowed by the fact that it is his *STATUS* as a Muslim, not necessarily his degree of "Muslimness", that is important and notable, given the political climate of France throughout his playing career. This has been noted by several authorative articles for reasons that even illogical people would find hard to deny. --Afinebalance 01:36, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, you can ignore what I said and try and mock me if you want, but unless they are engaged publicly in religious activities or promotion then it is not a notable facet of their public life. I never questioned his integrity as a Muslim or want him to use his position as a notable sportsperson to promote a religious agenda. Blnguyen | rant-line 01:45, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Why is his religion referred to in countless articles? Because it is a notable status that he carries, being a superstar in a Western country who's descended from a minority group. He does not have to do anything. I'm not sure you folks know how an encyclopedia works, but it attempts to collect as many facts as possible. Zidane descending from a Kabyle Muslim family is a fact. Zidane's quote as a "non-practicing Muslim" is a fact (referred to later in the article, which has ironically remained untouched). Why don't you take out the Kabyle part as well since he doesn't promote his ethnicity either? There are many, many arenas on the internet for you to take out your feelings towards Islam, please do not include Wikipedia in them. --Afinebalance 02:03, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm an Islamophobe then? Note that I also removed the Parsi cat from Rustomji Jamshedji and the Sikh cat from Yuvraj Singh. About 10% of France is Muslim so that is a very notable minority. Nobody goes around sticking Muslim on all the Indian cricketers and movie stars do they - Also, for consistency would you say that " Salman Khan born (...) is an Indian Muslim moviestar who drink-drives and in doing so ran over and killed people sleeping on a Mumbai footpath? "Blnguyen | rant-line 02:20, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Are Sikhism or Islam in India contentious issues? No, they're quite common. The story is quite different in France, regardless of the statistics. At the same time, Danish Kaneria's and Yousuf Youhana's (former) religions have been documented repeatedly since they are not common. I recommend you read the LA Times article on Zidane from June 4, 2006 [1] (I'm sure it's discussed much more in French columns) to get an idea of why Zidane's background is important, at the very LEAST notable, in the context of Muslims in France.

At the end of the day we must ask ourselves: "Is this a fact?" Yes. "If it's a fact, is it notable enough to include relative to the amount of space it takes?" It only requires one word, so I would say yes. It does not refer to how "Muslim" he is, it simply refers to his background. Given these simple points and the passion from some to get rid of it (mainly AFTER he had his monster game against Brazil, how pathetic).. how can individuals NOT be seen (or mistaken) as Islamophobes? --Afinebalance 02:41, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

There is religious tension in India, more so than France, which is more secular, where there are no religious political parties of any note. Also in India, see Khalistan, Shiv Sena, etc. Well, I'm not an Islamophobe. Please see WP:AGF.Blnguyen | rant-line 02:48, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

It is ironic that you raise the point about France being secular, as this is a major reason for the controversy that currently exists in France. The sheer content on the Islam in France page gives a hint at what I'm talking about, as it is quite longer than most "Islam in.." pages. For the sake of staying on topic, the importance of Zidane's *status* as a Muslim in France has been referred to by one of the most infamous (or famous) anti-Islamic writers of our times, Salman Rushdie.. and it's almost a shame that I must use him as backup in order to make a simple point: it is notable. --Afinebalance 02:58, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Boy Afinebalance, you've shown your true coloros with this discussion. You are obviously wrong and I'm sure the majority of Wiki would think you are going mad. If you feel like you are right about this, then start a vote Chaldean 04:19, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

How am I obviously wrong? Are the countless articles that refer to Zidane as a Muslim written by writers who have gone "mad"? You fail to acknowledge the basic rule of an encyclopedia, which is including any *notable facts*. I don't think you've even bothered to read my arguments for including it, or you're just unable to respond to them. I do know I'm not going to bother repeating the details. You may have a bad understanding of the english language but I'm going to repeat this once more: this refers to the background he has DESCENDED from, and a background which has unquestionably impacted the way he is looked upon by many Muslims and non-Muslims alike. It is a fact that not even you can deny. --Afinebalance 04:44, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, if it is kept, could you keep it out of the first paragraph and discuss it lower. First and foremost he is a footballer. the vast majority of the world sees him as such, rather than an icon of Islam. Sure he is a muslim, but as an icon, that is definitely not his primary importance.Blnguyen | rant-line 05:12, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I think Blnguyen's solution is sensible - I think it's interesting enough to inclusion in the article, but that's now how most people define Zidane. He is a professioinal footballer first and foremost, and he's not a Beckham-like figure with a visible off-field life. A sentence in the "Personal life" section should suffice. It should not be mentioned in the first paragraph, let alone the first sentence. Ytny 06:12, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

...If you do a Google search on "zidane muslim," you will find many articles saying Zidane is a "devout Muslim." Yet, the interview (the link of which has expired, by the way), states he is a "non-practicing Muslim"? 24.23.219.122 08:12, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

The link is still live. The notes section contains two articles quoting Zidane as a non-practicing Muslim:

• [2]: He refuses to discuss politics, except for terse criticism of Le Pen in 2002. He calls himself a "non-practicing Muslim."
• [3]: In early 2004, when the French Government proposed the bill to ban the use of religious symbols in educational institutions and work places, Zidane, when asked to comment, replied, "I have been a non-practising, non-praying Muslim and that is all what I would like to say about this."

Here's a third source for Zidane as a non-practicing Muslim: [4]. --Muchness 08:51, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Redirect and disamb

I redirected "Zidane" here and made a disamb page cos the other Zidane was nobody. Skinnyweed 00:48, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

There are now 4 Zidane's listed on the disambig page, 3 real people and the FFIX character. This page should have the usual "Zidane redirects here. For other uses, see Zidane_(disambiguation)" text at the top. M0ffx 11:41, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I've added a {{redirect}} tag. --Muchness 11:50, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Peacock terms

In the lead section, instead of using peacock terms like 'top footballer', 'elite', 'genius', 'magician' - why not simply state that he's been tha FIFA World Player of the Year three times? The guidelines are pretty clear on this. Eixo 14:23, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Clean-Up tag placed

This article needs serious clean up, not only is thier a lack of references, but its make ourageous claims, such as bieng the best plyer of this genration and the of all time. The third and fourth paragraphs, are just as bad, from the claims that he was the best of the real madrid team, by reputation alone, to claims that its due to his abscence that France, exited the world cup. Another tag of weasel words will also be put up. Very misleading article. (212.219.97.7 11:48, 16 June 2006 (UTC))

OR tag

Agree with above person. Statements like "Zidane is often considered to be the best footballer of his generation [citation needed] , and one of the greatest footballers of all time", "one of the game's finest artists", and the France 2002 losing because of him are suspect. Skinnyweed 20:54, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I've done a basic clean-up, removing a lot of the gushing about what an amazing player etc. Some still remains, though it is generally accapted that Zidane is "one of the game's finest artists". The Arabic translation of the name remains, though perhaps it should be gone as there doesn't seem to be any justification for it.

I don't know what to do with this paragraph: "Zidane is one of the football icons of his generation and is known to be modest, quiet and self-admittedly shy. As a Guardian feature article says, however, Zidane also has occasional flashes of aggression on the pitch. One such display of aggression occurred when Zidane was red carded for headbutting Jochen Kientz in a 2000/2001 Champions League match for Juventus against Hamburger SV. He also stamped on a player in the 1998 World Cup and received a straight red card." It is currently under "legacy", which does not seem right, and the mention of the stamping incident is a repetition. Beev 23:06, 1 July 2006 (GMT)

I've cleaned up some of the article; also moving the final game section to the club career section; seems to fit better there. --Dococ23 18:11, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Disambig

Let's agree to remove the disambig info, just because somebody has the same last name as somebody doesn't mean they deserve a redirect on that person's page, especially not for a minor fictor character. Should an article on Alan Jones have a disambig for all people sharing the name Jones? Mackan 03:45, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

If you look at the disambiguation page, you'll see that there are two footballers named Zidane (Zinedine & Djamel), one fictional character named Zidane (Tribal), and one other footballer with a similar name (Zidan). That seems like enough to warrant inclusion of the disambiguation message. "Zidane" itself goes to Zinedine so it's fair to add a disambiguation page to that article. I know that having that redirect message is never nice but you have to keep control of your own personal emotions and maintain a neutral point of view. Skinnyweed 13:45, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Your question is totally ridiculous as "Jones" does not redirect to "Alan Jones". Do not attempt to skewer opinion and spread deceit because we will know. Skinnyweed 13:49, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I think you just disqualified yourself from commenting on this subject. Mackan 15:19, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Seeing as you're unwilling to talk, even though you started the issue, we'll just have to wait for outside commentary. Skinnyweed 15:48, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually I don't care any longer since you added two other players. I think the article "Zidane" could just as well be a disambig though. Still, I object to your way of "debating", you are rude and assumptive.Mackan 16:21, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

The vast majority of people typing Zidane into a wikipedia search will be looking for Zinedine, thus it is sensible for Zidane to redirect here. However since a few may looking for others, the {{redirect}} tag, that Muchness has just added, is sensible. M0ffx 11:59, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't realize there was a content dispute regarding the inclusion of a disambiguation header in this article – I should have checked first before adding it. Still, I think the inclusion is appropriate in this case, for the reasons stated by M0ffx. --Muchness 12:06, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it is fine as things currently stand, and in line with WP practices.-- Deville (Talk) 19:25, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Nationality

68.78.137.203 (talk • contribs) added He is ALGERIAN to the bottom of the first paragraph, which I reverted. I have no knowledge of the player, so I am moving the comment here for further discussion. --TeaDrinker 21:12, 23 June 2006 (UTC) He is a dual national French and Algerian. As a French born person of Algerian parentage he is entitled to both nationalities and under Algerian law, he cannot lose his Algerian nationality. Kusyel.

i read earlier that he was of kurdish decent...........his middle name is an anchient kurdish religion what happen to that phrase why was it takin out? just wondering?

Legend

This man is a legend.... I just saw him beat Brazil. This is Incredible!

He's gonna die for this.

What a guy!

He beat Brazil single-handedly? What a guy!!!

Why is he going to die?

France Greatest Player

It was claimed that Platini is "the best French player of all time" in Platini's page.. Ofcourse, Platini is a great player, but the claim seems abit dated. Shouldn't this goes to Zidane, since if some recent basis exits, his 3 trophies of best player of the year, many of his peers testomonies, UEFA Golden Jubilee Poll are just few sources .. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Golden_Jubilee_Poll --86.16.113.121

ZXCZXC

There is no point talking about who is "the best" as this will always be strictly POV. Platini's page says he is "arguably the best French player of all time", which is probably quite a fair statement, though it might be more accurate to say "he is considered to be one of the best French players of all time". Of course, the same could be said about Zidane, and it would be accurate to say the same thing about both players.

"Zidane is often considered to be the best footballer of his generation" -- I think this statement in the opening paragraph of Zidane's article is seriously pushing the boundaries of impartiality. It's based an article which is full of praise for Zidane, in the same way that such articles always praise their subject. The author has clearly gathered together a small amount of evidence to support his view, and does not present any other possible alternative views. Not entirely convincing. Beev

Marseille Roullete

Should we add anything in the trivia about Zidane's trademark move? Did he even invent it himself?

hmm. yes and no. didnt Maradona do a similar thing..? im not too sure maybe someone can look into it. Or he has his own style of Maradona's move. im really not sure so dont flame me for being confused :P

The first time I saw it was in 1982, when Maradona played at the World Cup in Spain. But it is a Zidane trademark anyway, nobody else uses it as often and as effective. David Sneek 19:56, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

^yea good point. he does it so smoothly. i would support it if it was added.

I added a video to the external links section. David Sneek 07:10, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

33rd minute goal against Portugal

If the time says 26:32 for example, they're in the 27th minute, not the 26th. That's was the case with the goal against Portugal, it was the 33rd minute, not the 32nd Soxrock 19:54, 5 July 2006 (UTC)