Talk:Hand grenade: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 23:49, 20 July 2006

Dirty tricks

I removed the Dirty tricks section, seen below. I don't see the point of having this section. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think Wikipedia needs to be in the business of providing how-to's on explosive booby-traps. -Rholton (aka Anthropos) 04:01, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Well-prepared soldiers carry a roll of duct tape to repair equipment. With practice with dummy grenades, it is fairly easy to learn to construct simple booby traps from duct tape and a grenade.

Such an example of a booby trap is to trap a door frame. Place the grenade about half an arm-length above one's head (most people do not look up; they watch their feet or their hands). When the door is opened, the booby trap should release the grenade's handle. The grenade should stay in place up high, so that it cannot be kicked away.

Booby traps are also used on vehicle gas tanks, and in doing so, are triggered when the vehicle drives away.

I disagree. Anybody with a grenade will not need Wikipedia, while many of those researching grenades may be doing so for purposes of writing literature, fiction, etc where this is useful information. I vote for it being kept, but perhaps leading to an off-site reference rather than going into too many details. --82.35.147.90 10:47, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I dunno. I do see your point, but on the other hand, most people doing this won't be looking it up in Wikipedia, most people who read it in Wikipedia won't want to run out and try it, and very few will probably be able to because you can't exactly just walk down to the store and buy a grenade -- in regions you can, I wouldn't exactly consider myself safe! --Furrykef 08:43, 18 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Move

In addition, perhaps this should be moved to "hand grenade"? It only discusses grenades operated by the hand, but what about grenade launchers and rocket propelled grenades? Clearly these are not hand grenades if not operated by the hand, but many of the principles apply. (I'll correct the article's incorrect implicit assertion that all grenades are hand-operated now.) --Furrykef 08:48, 18 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Since no one opposed User:Furrykef, I moved the article. This article doesn't mention anything about any other grenades than those that are thrown. I fixed almost all double-redirects but those that actually need to link to "grenade" instead of "hand grenade". I could also fix other articles that link to grenade when they actually mean hand grenades. We need a separate grenade article. For now it can just redirect to hand grenade. --ZeroOne 19:42, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)

safety feature

I remember reading something about some modern hand grenades having microcontroller/accelerometer controlled detonators, designed so they don't go off if you simply drop them at your feet (think in terms of measuring the duration of zero-g motion). Can anyone confirm/deny this? -- The Anome 09:33, 18 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

High explosive grenades

Under which category would high explosive (offensive) grenades, like the British No. 69 fit? Oberiko 02:28, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I reckon that it belongs alongside the Mills bomb, Steilhandgranate, and the like. The problem is that 'fragmentation' is too restrictive, it ought to be renamed anti personnel grenades. Presumabley the flying bakelite did cause some injuries on top of the blast. Go on! You make the change. GraemeLeggett 16:19, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Smoke grenades

Whoever keeps removing what I put up about where to buy smokes grenades needs to STOP. I don't see what is wrong with providing where to buy them. They are great for paintball. No matter how many times you remove it I will continue to post it. From: The angry Mr. Smokey

YOU need to stop putting that in.

1)because its against the no-advertising policy of wikipedia.

2) It's only useful to a small number of people - those who want to buy smoke grenades AND live in that geographical area. GraemeLeggett 16:06, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

WP toxicity

I qualified the statment slightly The quoted toxicity values for ingestion are between 1 and 16 mg per kilo body weight: 70 mg to 1120 mg for a medium adult.

Offensive/Defensive

"The hand sized Mills bomb with a cast iron casing is an example of a defensive grenade, the Stielhandgrenate with a tinplate canister around the explosive and a handle is a classic example of the latter."

This sentence should be two sentences (no comma). Also, is the Stiel really a defensive grenade?

Timeing mechanisms

Didn't early HGs use an acid timing mechanism? Rich Farmbrough 14:57, 19 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Throwing the pin

From the article: "A common mistake is grasping the grenade in the weak hand, pulling the pin and then throwing the pin." Now, I'm not in the military, but this doesn't really strike me as a particularly common mistake to make. --193.11.222.179 19:31, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I just noticed the same thing and came here to check if it had been discussed. It's got to be hooey. --jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 01:03, 23 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Inaccurate?

As a US Soldier two things about this article struck me as off, but perhaps still correct:

(1) "US and other NATO soldiers (with the exception of the US Marines) are trained not to "burn off" or "cook off" grenades..."

I went threw basic training at Ft. Knox in 2000 and did train on cooking off grenades. Perhaps that isn't what they were suppose to train me in, but in my 6-year military career (including a deployment to Iraq) I have never been told not to cook-off my grenades.

(2) All US soldiers going through Basic Combat Training (BCT) for the US Army must throw a live grenade. So the caption on the picture of the soldier throwing a grenade that says throwing a dummy grenade is a part of Basic Training is misleading (though that might be what the soldier pictured is in fact doing).

NO! You do not wait

R. Lee Ermy (Hoped I spelled that right) is the marine sergeant famous for calling people Maggot and operating a show called "Mail Call" In one episode he explained better then I this fallacy.

In modern training a soldier DOES NOT hold onto a grenade after the pin is pulled. The reason for this is that grenades are mass produced and such are subject to flaws. While a grenade may be intended to go off in 5-7 seconds this does not always happen.

Ermy demonstrated this with a grenade instructor. The Instructor used dummy grenades which only ignited smoke. He threw five grenades, three exploded on time. One exploded late, the last exploded after two seconds. Had a soldier been holding onto this grenade and counting down he and anyone near him would have died had it been the real thing. A soldier who does not want a grenade thrown back throws the grenade so that it will bounce off of something, or roll around making it difficult for the enemy to grab it. Holding onto a grenade and counting down is a sure way to die.

This is a hundred percent wrong. The technique is called "cooking off," and it is taught, practiced, and used. Jrkarp 04:14, 20 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah where did you get your information from? And for that matter how many grenades have you cooked off? And if you were military how long ago? And for that matter what is this bit in the article about holding the handle while cooking off, the thing doesn't arm until the spoon is released. If you are intentionally trying to shave time before you throw the weapon holding the spoon contradicts the whole process.

And for you personally Mister Karp I noticed your little comment. Just because I used a quotation from "Mail Call" does not mean I am citing him as my singular source of information. It is called quoting somebody. You see in our culture we often quote people who do an articulate job of describing or explaining something in order to convey a point.

Don't take things so personally. Geez. Plus, sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~); it puts your username and date of edit after the post. Now, onto your points:

I got my information from personal knowledge and experience, plus United States Army Field Manual FM 3-23.30, Grenades and Pyrotechnic Signals: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-23-30/index.html. See chapter 3, section 3.5 (Close Combat).

I am not going to publicly discuss my military experience; if I wanted to it would be on my user profile along with the note about being a lawyer.

I did not add the part about holding the handle while cooking off. I'm going to do a rewrite of parts of this article, and that part will be changed.

I know why you used a quotation from "Mail Call," but you added information to the main page of this article, and your only justification for it was having seen the episode of Mail Call. See Wikipedia:Cite_sources.

I most definitly know what it means to quote someone, but you have to provide a reference, like an episode number or at least an air date, so it is verifiable.

If you want to disagree with U.S. Army publications and insist your point is right, we can post a RFC and ask others to weigh in. However, I think that a U.S. Army Field Manual is pretty dispositive on this point. Jrkarp 16:27, 20 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Also, if you are going to complain that the globalsecurity.org version is outdated, I found the 2005 revision of that FM in PDF format , but for some reason TRADOC documents can now only be accessed by people with an AKO account. However, Google's "View as HTML" function works for some reason and a cached HTML version can be read here (as of today anyway): http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:DIF-a652qTgJ:atiam.train.army.mil/soldierPortal/atia/adlsc/view/public/8392-1/fm/3-23.30/fm3_23x30.pdf. The section about cooking off is unchanged from the earlier revision. If I can find a PDF version of the 2005 revision, I will post a link. Jrkarp 16:45, 20 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I found a download that does not require a password: https://atiam.train.army.mil/soldierPortal/atia/adlsc/view/public/10881-1/fm/3-23.30/fm3_23x30.pdf. These documents are not secret and have always been publicly available, so I have no idea why some of the Army sites require a login to access them. Jrkarp 17:49, 20 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, maybe its just us guys in Air Force Secuirty who teach not to cook off, either way I'll accept the article as it is now. As I recall I did not add the Mail Call information to the article directly but kept it in the talk page, if I did add it to the article itself it was unintentional. Klauth 03:17, 21 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That may be true. You guys don't generally have to deal with MOUT, bunker assaults, or the like.

The material you did add paralleled the Mail Call information, so you can see why I thought that was where you got it from. In any case, I am glad that we worked this out.

BTW, FM 3-23.30 does say that grenades are only to be cooked off in actual combat, so maybe that is part of where Ermy got it from. Maybe the Marines "officially" discourage the practice. In any case, I personally would not want to throw a frag into a room full of OPFOR without cooking it off a second or two. Jrkarp 05:52, 21 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

History of Hand Grenades?

I think the history can be expanded to include grenades from ancient times in asia...

Initial picture wrong

Gents, your initial picture of what you call "A WWII-era MkIIA1 "pineapple" fragmentation hand grenade" is actually a commercial reproduction of an M21 practice grenade body using an M228 practice grenade fuze (that is normally used with the M69 practice grenade). Just letting you know that I will be changing the picture to one that actually shows what you describe. --Eodtek 21:12, 8 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Percussion? Grenades

No such thing. A grenade which detonates or activates on impact is referred to as, "impact fused". "percussion", in ordnance terminology, refers to a technique of activating a weapon system by impact of a striker or firing pin on a percussion cap. While some impact fusing methods use percussion systems, the Russian RGO/RGD for example, they are still simply impact fused grenades. In normal discussion, they're simply referred to as, "impact grenades."

Propaganda Grenades?

I read in an older book and another source that the German forces during the Second World War actually produced hand and rifle grenades containing propaganda leaflets. I can't imagine them being even vaguely effective, but wonder if something could or should be added to this wiki article.