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==[[Remote viewing]]==
It feels a little strange to be arguing about the finer points of a fictional and mythological concept, but I suppose that even silly concepts should be represented accurately on Wikipedia.

[[Mindscape (film)|Mindscape]] seems to deal with a telepath reading memories, and it specifically uses the idea of a telepath reading false memories as a plot device. Assuming that Mindscape is tangentially related enough to be in the “see also” section, I still don’t see why you think that it helps the reader understand remote viewing. Remote Viewing is a kind of long range clairvoyance. If anything [[Scrying]] seems a bit more relevant. Or is there something I’m missing? [[Special:Contributions/76.107.171.90|76.107.171.90]] ([[User talk:76.107.171.90|talk]]) 14:50, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Revision as of 14:53, 15 June 2015

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Due to harassment, only registered, autoconfirmed, editors have a right to post on my talk page.

If you are an IP and need to contact me, you can leave comments on this subpage. I may not notice those messages for several days, so be patient.

If you want to enjoy the full benefits, rights, tools, email access, privileges, and respect enjoyed by editors here, just create an account. Thanks. BullRangifer


Charlotte's Web (cannabis)

Hey BullRangifer. I realize that I have extensively rearranged this article you worked fairly extensively on. I hope you view the changes as a positive. Lots of excellent sources were present in the article, they just needed slightly greater prominence IMO. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:05, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Doc James, I haven't checked yet, but I'm pretty sure they will be improvements. I always have confidence in your superb skills as an editor, as a physician with great medical knowledge, and as a defender of medical and scientific legitimacy against attacks from lunatic charlatans. Somehow you thread each needle with a unique ability to combine these traits in a very constructive manner, all for the betterment of Wikipedia and society. The kudos you have received are well deserved.
The current situation has been a touchy area for me, because "own" is always in the back of my mind. I'm well aware of that danger. I'm trying to always be careful to stay within policy, and I'm taking very seriously any specific suggestions. The part that bugs me is the highly emotional general attacks without specific examples. That's why I'm asking for specific suggestions. I can deal with them. Demands that basic documentation be removed are not founded in policy. In all of our alternative medicine articles we have the (unpleasant) duty of documenting all kinds of nonsense, but policy and the goal of Wikipedia requires that we do it. The trick is to do it properly. I don't claim to own a magic solution for doing that in every situation. It seems that in each alt med article it's been a different ad hoc solution found by the editors involved, and that's okay, just as long as it works. There isn't just one right way!
I wish that such collaboration were the wish here, but three editors have actually declared that they wish the article did not exist at all, and they have been trying to sabotage it. I hope they get more serious and deal with things as you have done. I'd like to see collaboration, rather than continued personal attacks and vilification in various venues. I'm an experienced good faith editor, scientific skeptic, and a nemesis to fringe POV pushers, but anyone who read and believed what's being said would not get that impression. It's a serious form of character assassination, and it should stop. It's also a form of harassment/baiting because the playing field is not even. I have to be careful not to tip over into an ownership attitude, while they can attack and attack, and no one is cautioning them. It's not fair. -- BullRangifer (talk) 02:36, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes the talk page was getting a little over personalized. I have not looked into the history of things much so my apologies. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:05, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

COI issues

Hi BullRangifer. I don't know if you are aware that I do a lot of work on COI issues in Wikipedia. I wasn't aware of the arbcom case regarding Quackwatch that you were involved with nor the relationships disclosed in that case. That was several years ago, for sure. Arbcom, which doesn't deal a lot with COI issues but rather behavioral issues, warned you to beware of advocacy in your Wikipedia editing, which is the behavioral manifestation of both COI and, well, real-world advocacy. Clearly you had a close association with QW back then and I don't know what your current relationship is. I would encourage you to consider a) making a disclosure of past/current relationships with QW and related sites on your User page, and including a link to it in your signature (like user:Formerly 98 does; and b) depending on whether there is currently a COI, avoiding directly editing content related to QW but instead making edit requests on Talk. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on potential COI you may have, and how you have managed it. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 12:31, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Jytdog, wow! Are you psychic or something?! When I returned to my PC I found two red flag notices. One was a thank for my comment here, which directly addresses your concerns (the other notice). Read that and see if it doesn't provide some useful information.
I was accused of a close relationship with QW, but investigation showed that to not be the case. It was just an accusation which has stayed alive. The only relationship I have ever had with the QW website is that I find it a good source of information for the types of topics it deals with. I share those POV most of the time. Sharing a POV is not a COI, and having a POV is certainly allowed, as long as it doesn't cause one to violate policy when editing.
If I really thought I had a COI, I would declare it, and as far as advocacy goes, I don't think I violate any policies in discussions or editing. We are all allowed to voice our opinions.
The only clear advocacy I do here is to defend science based sources as more reliable than nonsense based sources, and even nonsensical sources have their place when we need to document that the nonsense exists. We do that in all alternative medicine articles and in articles about frauds, conmen, and quacks. That is not considered "advocacy" in the negative sense we use here. That's considered good practice. I see you and many others of the best editors do the same. That's very closely aligned with our RS, weight, and other policies. If you ever see me violating policy, let me know. Please advise, and thanks so much for your concern. -- BullRangifer (talk) 14:52, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, that diff explains past and current relationships. That lays it to rest for me. Others may have follow-up questions, of course. Best regards. Jytdog (talk) 16:15, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

RE:Why?

I redacted it because I saw that the admin that logged it had placed a message in regards to it two seconds before. I did repost a modified version back there.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 07:05, 20 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I kind of figured that was why. Your version was the actual wording, so it was a bit different than what the admin placed. Thanks. -- BullRangifer (talk) 14:44, 20 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please comment on Talk:Conversion therapy

The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Conversion therapy. Legobot (talk) 00:03, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Problematic articles

These articles have issues of various types: their notability, promotional tone, use of primary, inhouse, sources and unreliable sources, and strong medical claims in Wikipedia's voice (not just documentation that such claims are made):

BullRangifer (talk) 02:53, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I just took a look at the first of those. It hasn't been written with PAG in mind at all. oh my goodness. getting rid of the unsourced content would bring the stoners rushing to re-insert, I suppose. Who wants that discussion? are the others just as bad? -Roxy the black and white dog™ (resonate) 09:51, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I doubt some of them could survive an AfD, they're that bad. I've been taking a lot of flack for the highly notable subject Charlotte's Web (cannabis), which I wrote with PAG in mind, lots of good sourcing, and none of the junk sources used in these other articles. So I got curious and took a look at our other cannabis articles and found these few. We don't have that many. There is simply no comparison when one compares it with these articles, yet my attackers don't do anything about these. Obviously "other stuff exists" arguments can be valid or invalid. In this case the CW article is head and shoulders above any of these, and is just as good (and better sourced) as most of our other types of articles, and any problems can be fixed without gutting the article. Whatever the case, these need serious attention. -- BullRangifer (talk) 14:42, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I saw your work on CW, a couple of weeks ago, not sure, unimportant. The difference is stark between that and the one I read above. That unsourced list of names made my eyes bleed. -Roxy the black and white dog™ (resonate) 17:24, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. Inclusion in lists requires good sourcing and notability. Although it's not strictly stated in policy, we often require that anyone who wishes to add an item to such a list must first establish its notability by creating a well-sourced article. If the article survives, then they have shown that the RS exist, and it's safe to add it to the list. (Exceptions do exist.) It is their job, not the job of others. If we don't do that, such lists become targets for OR, spam, and promotion. One can safely remove every item which doesn't have an article, with the edit summary that all items must be notable and properly sourced. -- BullRangifer (talk) 01:51, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The CW article doesn't have a "cannabis portal" link like I saw on other C articles. There is a what I thought was significant amount of coverage easily found from there. Should there be one - I think it not obligatory? Back on topic, my skillz at sourcing and writing content are abysmal, I am under no illusions. I tend to chip away at obvious edges, and get into bother for being spiky on article talk pages. For me, deleting stuff is easy, but creating stuff is not easy. I don't like just deleting stuff. I fear decimating any article because of "no source" would lead me back to bad habits on talk pages. Because there is no deadline, I'm going to think for a bit, before plunging in here. Roxy the black and white dog™ (resonate) 02:37, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I have added the portal link. I'm not sure how that got missed. I thought I was pretty thorough, but my background for writing the article had nothing to do with the cannabis culture or other articles here. I simply followed the RS I could find and let them tell the story. I welcome any suggestions. It has been said that the article is promotional. Well, it documents some claims, but also includes many cautions about the anecdotal and unproven nature of the claims. If you see anything that sounds too promotional, please let me know here. -- BullRangifer (talk) 04:50, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Or

On the all-encompassing alt-med definition: Agreed that FloraWilde's is very good, but it's logical that we need "or" and not "and" punctuating the various definitions, no? Salud! Middle 8 (t • c | privacy • COI) 07:07, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've got to see this:
An older version:
FloraWilde's version:
  • Alternative medicine is a loosely defined set of products, practices, and theories that are believed[1] or perceived[2]:19 by their users to have the healing effects of medicine, but whose effectiveness has not been clearly established using scientific methods, whose theory and practice is not part of biomedicine, and some of whose theories or practices may be directly contradicted by scientific evidence or scientific principles used in biomedicine."
Your version:
  • Alternative medicine is a loosely defined set of products, practices, and theories that are believed[1] or perceived[2]:19 by their users to have the healing effects of medicine, but whose effectiveness has not been clearly established using scientific methods, or whose theory and practice is not part of biomedicine, or some of whose theories or practices may be directly contradicted by scientific evidence or scientific principles used in biomedicine."
I'll have to answer later. -- BullRangifer (talk) 15:07, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Signpost: 03 June 2015

Please comment on Talk:Data comparison

The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Data comparison. Legobot (talk) 00:03, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Signpost: 10 June 2015

Remote viewing

It feels a little strange to be arguing about the finer points of a fictional and mythological concept, but I suppose that even silly concepts should be represented accurately on Wikipedia.

Mindscape seems to deal with a telepath reading memories, and it specifically uses the idea of a telepath reading false memories as a plot device. Assuming that Mindscape is tangentially related enough to be in the “see also” section, I still don’t see why you think that it helps the reader understand remote viewing. Remote Viewing is a kind of long range clairvoyance. If anything Scrying seems a bit more relevant. Or is there something I’m missing? 76.107.171.90 (talk) 14:50, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ Cite error: The named reference NSF_2002 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  2. ^ Cite error: The named reference Angell1998 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  3. ^ Cite error: The named reference FDA_regulatory was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
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