Talk:William Blake

Blake's brother

There seems to be dispute as to whether Blake's brother who died in infancy was older or younger than Blake. In my reading Iv'e und references to both, even that Blake was the youngest of 3 sons, so which is it? Was Blake's brother older or younger?

Hm, interesting. Stanley Kunitz, states in "Essential Blake" that Blake's brother Robert was his younger brother. I would call that a very reliable source. What kind of contraticting sources you've found? --Thomas 09:00, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Popular culture references

The guy is pretty popular. Someone should add some references to him from television and movies. I know there is a Whilhelm Scream song titled William Blake Overdrive.

A Norwegian band called Ulver recorded a whole album called Themes from William Blake's The Marriage of Heaven and Hell containing the entire text of Blake's poem The Marriage of Heaven and Hell. Ulver was initially a metal band and later progressed into all possible genres, but many fans remained faithful to them throughout this time and now the knowledge about William Blake among the metal folk is the direct result of Ulver's music. I think that information should definitely be incorporated in the article (or at least Ulver's album's existence should be noted, as it is a whole 1.3 hour long artistic creation dedicated to Blake's creations and philosophy (and an extroardinary piece of music by the way)).

I noticed that it says Blake became apprentice to Henry Basire. Should this not be 'James Basire'?

---

Out of interest I did a google search, reversing the name orders. Here is the result:

"Basire Henry" = 0 pages found.
"Basire James" = about 157 pages found.

(response by LC) Yes, James Basire is correct. There are many innacuracies on the page.

The movie Dead Man should definietly be included, it features many references to his poems, and the main plot point is a man who believes that William Blake's spirit has come back. BlessCernunnos

Correction

I suppose I should mention I corrected a mistake in 'Works' which can be very easily verified: "There is No Natural Religion" was erroneously named "Ther is No Religion".

(response by LC) I'm not sure which title you believe to be the correct one. The title given by Blake, however, reads "THERE IS NO NATURAL RELIGION"

For proof, one can consult Google, although all Blake bibliographies I've seen (Web-based or not) mention the name I provided.

quick check: http://www.american-buddha.com/blake.bib.htm

Wintceas Correct me if I'm wrong, but the first police force was created by Henry Fielding and his brother in 1750, the Bow Street Runners.

Disappointing entry.

I began editing the William Blake entry, only to find that there are too many errors for me to fix in one sitting so late at night. The entry should really be taken down until a proper one can be written, one that's based on reality rather than...I don't know, guesswork? Half the information in the article is incorrect. Boo. -- User:216.188.230.79 09:19, 19 October 2005

What you say is probably true, but I doubt that half the information here is incorrect. In any case, the way Wikipedia works is not to hide information that may be wrong, but just allow anyone, such as yourself, to correct it over time. It doesn't have to be entirely correct today, tomorrow or even next week, what matters is how the article reads in a year's time. If any passages appear to be deliberately misleading, one option is to move that paragraph from the main article to a section on this talk page, so that it can be fixed up before putting it back. But if the problems are with say dates and titles of paintings, it would be best to fix them in place as and when you get the chance.

To be honest, in general Wikipedia's articles on arts and artists tend to be fairly weak and this one is considerably better than the average. The situation is improving; in recent months I've noticed a lot more informed edits taking place on arts subjects. However, if you look around you could probably find many more articles that need help. -- Solipsist 09:18, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Half is hyperbole and I think you know that.

Blake's influence

I'd be keen to see mention of his influence on the wider society beyond the arts. For example, on the practical romantic heroes of the time, such as Nelson; or the more rationalist philosophers such as Bentham.

Gordon Riots?

Hey, I don't really know much about Blake or the riots, but I just noticed a discrepancy between their respective pages. Speaking of Blake's role in the riots, this article says the riots were in solidarity with the insurrection in the American colonies. The Gordon Riots page, however, says these were protestant riots demanding that some anti-Catholic legislation in Britain be repealed... Anyone know what the fuss really was about?

There was a parliamentary Bill put forward to relieve the Catholics of certain disabilities and penalties (so it was pro-Catholic legislation, I think). Lord George Gordon and his Prostestant Association incited the riots by way of response. I haven't been able to find anything about blue ribbons, though.

Wouldn't it be out of character for Blake to join such a riot? My understanding was that Blake was tremendously pro-Catholic. I recall a quote by Thomas Merton, whose Masters thesis was on Blake, in his autobiography The Seven Story Mountain, (paraphrasing here): "Catholicism is the only religion which truly teaches God's love". I'm not an expert of Blake, by any means, but he was a major influence on Merton's development as a Catholic mystic. Cravenmonket 21:31, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Additions and Divisions

I've made some additions to the page, and sub-divided the early life section - overall, I think this is one of the better Wikipedia art entries, but its a long way from complete. I concentrated on embellishing what was there, rather than adding new stuff, but with any luck people will approve of these edits.

I think a great deal more may be said about B's family, especially his relationship with his parents. I recall that his siblings reportedly saw visions too, Robert especially; Blake wasn't unique in his visions, but was unique in maintaining this ability through to adulthood. Also, the themes of oppresive fatherhood or weak and faithless motherhood in Blake's later work should be mentioned, if only to contrast this with the support granted to William by both his parents. That is, why should Blake concentrate on these themes considering his supportive family past?

A couple of points: I'll do something similar with the rest of the article, when I have time and if people approve of what's been done so far. Second, the caption to the illustration showing the Song of Los - Urizen wasn't Blake's 'almighty creator', but was indicative of an overly rational (broadly speaking, Lockean) frame of mind that tended to create generalized abstrations from sensory data. Thus, I think the picture caption is a misleading oversimplification. I wouldn't mind normally, but it's a widely-held (mis)perception that Blake was simply a Bible illustrator, whereas his art and poetry served in part as a reinterpretation of the Biblical myth, rather than a simple allegorical retelling of it. So often with Blake, the aim is not in supplying information, but in banishing disinformation. Visual Error 16:06, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I noticed that the article states Blake's birth into a "middle-class family". I alsways beleived that Blake was born into a working-class family, hence his dislike of authority, and his questioning of society in his "songs of innocence and of experience". Could anyone confirm this or correct me if i am wrong?

a radical religious sect called "Dissenters"??!!

I'm sorry to be blunt, but this line reveals that the original author has a great deal of studying to do before he/she is qualified to write an article on Blake. Dissenter, of course, is a term of very wide meaning, referring to those who dissented from the Anglican Church. What the author is likely trying, and failing, to refer to is Blake's circumstantial but very suggestive links with the Muggletonians (see E. P. Thompson's Witness Against the Beast and other scholarship), a radical Dissenting sect with its roots in the 17th c. Or the author is gesturing at the New Jerusalem Church of Emmanuel Swedenborg, of which Blake was briefly a member; his disillusionment with Swedenborgianism is woven into The Marriage of Heaven and Hell. I wish I had time to actually fix this in text. I hope someone else will do so.

Steve Newman, Ph.D.

I do think the best thing to do would be fix it in the article - forgive me, but the time spent noting it on the discussion page could have been spent updating the text. You seem to be well-informed on the matter, and you have references to hand, so I think it would only be an improvement. The intention here as throughout Wikipedia is to work towards a well-informed, corroborated article, not lament the fact that we don't have one now. Visual Error 01:27, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

A fair criticism/request; I'm busy prepping for seminars I'm teaching tomorrow; but I'll get to it as soon as I can. SN

Blake's wife Catherine helped him write?!?

Do we really want to say in the first two sentences that Blake wrote his poetry in collaboration with his wife Catherine? The fact that Catherine was actually illiterate seems to require some qualification to this point. Blake never seems to have had much expectation that anyone would understand what he was on about, least of all his wife ... what is the evidence for this?

  He taught her to read and write. By all accounts, she was an invaluable aide to him. 

Imagination

Heron- Nice revision. I like your version much better. Anyone want to add anything to this?KristoferM 04:07, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Questionable Line

I have a problem with this line in the intro: "Viewing Blake's accomplishments in either poetry or in the visual arts separately is to do him a disservice"

This seems to be a pure matter of opinion and un-encyclopedic. I have long been an avid reader of Blake's poetry with only a passing knowledge of his illustrations- I doubt I have done William Blake any disservice.

• • • Just because you've been a reader of his poetry w/out studying his visual arts doesn't mean that it's the right way to do things. That's like a fat man justifying the consumption of Crisco because he's consumed some himself. :) DRJ 16:47, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Nevertheless, the comment is correct; the claim in the article is PoV; whether it's true or not isn't the point. Mind you, much of the article is couched in similarly PoV terms (including most of the rest of the second paragraph of the summary). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:50, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Camille Paglia

In her book Sexual Personae : Art & Decadence from Nefertiti to Emily Dickinson, Camille Paglia devotes chapter 10 to William Blake. I think this is worth a reference in the See Also section of the article tab. Can anybody add it ? Or explain how I can do it myself.
Thanks and regards, wout.perquin@skynet.be

"See also" directs the reader to related articles in Wikipedia. There isn't really any grounds for adding a reference to this book, I'm afraid (we don't supply complete bibliographies of secondary literature). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 20:55, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I understand that "See Also", is not the proper place to make the reference. But I do not agree with you that "There isn't really any grounds for adding a reference to this book".
My idea of Wikipedia is of a network of information. It has entry points (the article), and from there it points/guides you to any related material. In my view her chapter 10 is worth being mentioned somewhere in the article. Maybe in a newly created "Secondary literature" section or anywhere else it might fit properly. But I do not see any valid reason not to refer from this article to the book. Your above argument doesnt convince me, sounds to me some kind of censorship, and in my view is not compatible with the spirit of Wikipedia.
Regards, wout.perquin@skynet.be - 10:34, June 1, 2006 (CET)

Gosh, you reached "censorship" more quickly than usual. Whatever the relevant equivalent of Godwin's Law is, it probably needs up-dating.

If we were going to supply a "Secondary literature" section, I doubt that this book would be very high on the list of works to be added. There's a huge number of books and articles specifically on Blake; why should a book that contains one chapter on him take precedence? I realise that you like the book, but that's not really adequate grounds for adding it. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:49, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Gosh, you have a feel for not understanding the point, and reading what has never been asked for. I asked for a "Secondary literature section" that could capture Paglia's book, not for her book to be the first or only reference in that section.
To close this discussion let me summarize our views :

Yours : "In the Wikipedia article for William Blake there is no place for a reference to the chapter of Paglia's book."

Mine  : "As a Single Point of Information it would be worthwhile that the Wikipedia article for William Blake [c]ould have a reference to the book of Paglia"

Regards, wout.perquin@skynet.be - 10:12, June 18, 2006 (CET)

Quote

His life is, perhaps, summed up by his statement that "The imagination is not a State: it is the Human existence itself"; though this alone may not do justice to his thought.

Ok, so why bother with the quote in the first place? Why not substitute something that actually does justice, or just leave the thing out? Or, if the quote nevertheless does justice, leave out the disclaimer? 194.157.147.34 00:54, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree, this quote seems like an attempt to write a more traditional pov biography, not a npov encyclopaedic one (it does also seem a little collage essay in tone). I vote to remove it totally. - Solar 10:06, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Apprenticeship Confusion

"Basire seems to have been a kind master to Blake: there is no record of any serious disagreement between the two during the period of Blake's apprenticeship. However, Ackroyd's biography notes that Blake was later to add Basire's name to a list of artistic adversaries—and then cross it out (43, Blake, Peter Ackroyd, Sinclair-Stevenson, 1995). This aside, Basire's style of engraving copy images from the Gothic churches in London (it is possible that this task was set in order to break up a quarrel between Blake and James Parker, his fellow apprentice). "

Does anyone know what the bolded sentence is trying to say? I'm confused.

Jedidiah 18:07, 16 August 2006 (UTC)