Talk:Maya Marcel-Keyes

External links need trimming

The external links are definitely a bit much. Some of them are direct links to articles about Maya, which is good, but many are just random links to various advocacy organizations. And Maya hasn't been involved in all of those. --Cyde Weys 19:44, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Maya Marcel-Keyes → Maya Keyes – This is Maya's most known name. A normal page move is blocked by a redirect. Crumbsucker 09:01, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Support: Seems like it's more common based on a quick google search ([1] [2]). The Ungovernable Force 10:04, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
• Support per nom and WP:NAME. --Dhartung | Talk 06:48, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

What do you mean it's blocked by a redirect? Do you mean that the current page will redirect, or that there is something blocking us from redirecting it? The Ungovernable Force 10:01, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Maya Keyes redirects to Maya Marcel-Keyes. It won't allow a standard page move, so I had to request it. Crumbsucker 10:59, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The article exists as a redirect. We can't copy the information there without losing the article history, so a move is required, but only an administrator can clobber a page (the redirect) during a move. --Dhartung | Talk 06:49, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Can't we just take all the info that is here, copy it onto that page and then redirect this page there? I don't understand. If we copy all this as it is now to there, wouldn't the older versions still be in the history? We would actually lose all the history if we move it. The Ungovernable Force 22:25, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Nope, when you click the page move button, it says not to do manual moves like that. Crumbsucker 19:04, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

That's not what I'm saying. I had trouble articulating it, so let me try again. We can copy all the code that's on this page right now, then go paste it into Maya Keyes. Then just change this page to a redirect. Heck, since everyone agrees so far, I'm just going to try it so you can see what I mean. The Ungovernable Force 19:22, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok, nevermind. For some reason, when I typed Maya Marcel-Keyes it still took me to a page titled Maya Marcel-Keyes, instead of redirecting to Maya Keyes like I put on the page. When I tried to edit to make sure I did it right, it showed that Maya Marcel-Keyes was supposed to redirect, but it still was on a page titled Maya Marcel-Keyes. I don't know why it didn't work. Oh well, no harm done. At least I'm not curious anymore. The Ungovernable Force 19:33, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, copy-pasting over the code is a manual move, and it shouldn't be done because real moves also bring along all of the edit history which ensures GFDL compliance. --Cyde↔Weys 19:38, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Use of the term "queer"

While it is evident that Keyes has used this term to describe herself, I don't necessarily believe that warrants the use of it on this page. It is a term that is still offensive to some, reguardless of whom is saying it, and I think a more general term should be used. - Crazyd782 21:32, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Personally, I consider the term "homosexual" far more offensive, but I consider overriding someone's choice of self-identification to be the point of offensiveness we ought consider most. People use terms for self-identification that others find offensive frequently, especially in this context wherein many offensive terms (dyke, queer, etc) have been reclaimed. I don't think it's up to us to decide that her choice of teriminology should be overridden, it's censorship, it's inappropriately changing the identity associated with her, it's stifling her ability and right to use her self-identity to reclaim language, and it's also innacuarte: "homosexual" is not a more general term. It is far more specific and is not only inappropriate but quite conceivably an inaccuracy. Read queer and compare. Since I believe I have addressed your concern entirely, I'm going to change it back, but if you have other concerns please bring them up here, I'd be happy to discuss them with you. 149.43.x.x 03:40, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I haven't seen the source that she has identified herself as such, but a few people have said she has and for now I will assume this is the case. If it is, I agree with 149.43.x.x. here. First off, it's what she calls herself, second, some queers (such as myself) are not homosexuals. I would never label myself as a homosexual because that simply isn't true. Queer is not very offensive anymore in many contexts, such as this one, so I don't see what is wrong with it. Homosexual can be used in just as derogatory a name anyways--it all depends on how it is used and by whom. The Ungovernable Force 05:27, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I fail to see how the term "homosexual" is offensive. In fact, it is perfectly descriptive in this situation, referring to "a person who is attracted to those of the same (homo meaning same) sex." You are correct in saying that homosexual is not general. However, reading the definition of queer (upon your recommendation), I see it can refer to bisexuals, hermaphrodites, and those who are transgender. Since it is such a broad category, why use it here? It is so general, that it comes across as a stereotype. I would also like to point out that "it is what she called herself" is not a valid reason. Richard Hatch, the first winner of Survivor, would constantly refer to himself as "the fat, naked fag." These are his words, and after all, "it's not up to us to decide." If that is your belief, then do you also feel that we should add "Richard Hatch is a fag" to his page? Finally, homosexual is not a hate word, where as some may believe that "queer" is. Matthew Shepard was called a "queer" several times right before he was brutally murderered. I am completely against any censorship on Wikipedia, however, I am also against misusing terms and promoting hate speech. Keyes is a homosexual, and she should be identified as such. Crazyd782 19:40, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not saying you're wrong, but can you provide a source that she is homosexual as opposed to bisexual, pansexual, heteroflexible or some other distinction? And beating someone up while calling them queer isn't any worse than beating them up and calling them homosexual. And I think that if she has described herself as queer, but has never labelled herself homosexual, we should use queer. Again, I'm not saying she has never called herself homosexual, but until I see a source, I think we should use what she has used. The Ungovernable Force 06:20, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

There is a difference between 'homosexual' or 'bisexual' and 'queer'. We can't use 'queer' as a blanket term for alternative sexuality elsewhere on wikipedia because some LBGT people do object to it. Others consciously use it to describe themselves, which seems to be the case here. I had an AIM conversation a while ago with the persion who originally inserted the word 'queer' into this article, who claimed to know Maya, and claimed that Maya identified herself as 'queer' and was bisexual. An AIM log certainly isn't a reliable source (especially since I can't find it), although the screenname was listed on a blog that Maya was subscribed to, meaning it's probable that the term 'queer' is acceptable in this article. We don't need to replace every instance of the word 'homosexual' with 'queer' as the person I talked to did, but saying that she identifies herself as queer is definitely warranted. --TexasDex 23:47, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

That's how I feel about this, you articulated it well. And although this is speculation and doesn't prove anything, seeing as Maya is an anarchist I think it is very likely she would prefer queer over homo/bisexual. I prefer the use of queer in real life due to it's more radical and subversive nature. I think a lot of LGBTQ anarchists would probably feel similarly. The Ungovernable Force 05:39, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I also agree. When I pointed to queer as the reason to use this term, I meant it specifically because it is the term she uses to self-identify, and because its definition was more accurate in this case (or rather, beacuse "homosexual" is not accurate much at all). We can't possibly settle the argument of whether or not it's appropriate to use as a blanket term or as a term when the precise (if there is such a thing) term cannot be discerned. I still think that her use of the word to describe herself trumps everything else. It's not that she flippantly used it to describe herself like the survivor contestant, but that she used it specifically to self-identify as such. Keyes is not a homosexual, and this is not hate-speech (which depends as much on the context as it does on the word). I see absolutely no reason why "homosexual" is more accurate, more appropriate, or less offensive. Indeed, I think we've made a strong case that queer is more accurate and more appropriate, and that offensiveness to any particular person, except perhaps Keyes herself, is (or at least should be) entirely inconsequental in this debate. 149.43.x.x 01:57, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I think I might need to explain one point a bit further. The term homosexual can in fact be offensive. In one sense, it is particularly offensive to people of political persuasion similar to Maya. Many anarchists reject the social institutions of gender and sex: to step in like this, imposing and enforcing a notion that we must label them based on standards constructed by a gendered/sexist society, could easily be (and is, for some) considered highly offensive. That's not necessarily her opinion, but I thought I'd explain a bit more why the "queer is more offensive" angle doesn't hold water. 149.43.x.x 02:02, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

What, exactly, did I vandalize?

Alan Keyes said all gays were selfish hedonists. Therefore, he called his daughter a selfish hedonist. What, exactly, did I vandalize? You freaking PC police need to fuck off, to put it lightly.