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Modern states and ISC

Indepenendent state of Croatia encompassed big part of the territory of modern-day Republic of Croatia, the whole of modern-day Bosnia and Herzegovina and Eastern Syrmia now in modern-day Serbia.
Big part, not "most part" of Croatia, because ISC, compared to modern-day Croatia, did not have peninsula Istria, major part of Gorski kotar, Kvarner, no central littoral part of Adriatic coast and the belonging islands, Međimurje, Baranja, as well as small part of Konavle and southeasternmost part of modern-day Croatia.
With the fall of the Italy, that has changed a bit (central littoral part of the Adriatic coast and the belonging islands). Kubura (talk) 02:26, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That is not entirely correct. The NDH expanded after the Italian collapse in 1943 to include the areas annexed by Italy in 1941. The determiner "most" in this context means "a great majority of", in terms of the proportion of current Croatian territory. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 02:42, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just for clarification, here are maps of the NDH pre and post the Italian collapse to demonstrate what I am talking about. When compared to the current map it is clear that "most" is quite an accurate determiner. My apologies if you found my comment rude, it was not intentionally so. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 04:15, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Missing information about Serb Holocaust victims

Information about Holocaust victims of Serb ethnicity is totally absent in this article. This is absurd.

I'm not sure if the POV tag is appropriate, since there are no apparent problems with the existing content. Therefore, I'm applying the Missing Information tag. - Anonimski (talk) 18:21, 28 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed that the Roma aren't mentioned either, so I put them in the tag comment as well, since they also were a notable group in the 1941-45 persecutions. Anonimski (talk) 18:25, 28 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Please have a read of the discussion here and at Talk:The Holocaust. There isn't a clear consensus for inclusion of Serbs in The Holocaust. Yes, they were murdered in their hundreds of thousands, but that doesn't make them victims of "The Holocaust". Inclusion requires reliable sources and consensus. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 00:07, 29 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If there is well-sourced information to be added then naturally I'm in favor of adding it. I oppose the use of the missing information template, though, until it's clear from talk page discussions that there's information which should be here that is not. I'd also note that there is plenty of scholarship on the nationalist use of a "holocaust template" to model discussions of past persecutions and genocides of their peoples in attempts to parallel the idea that the Jewish people got Israel as recompense for the holocaust and so they too should have nations. See for instance the preface to this book:

David Bruce Macdonald (2002). Balkan Holocausts?: Serbian and Croatian Victim Centered Propaganda and the War in Yugoslavia. Manchester University Press. ISBN 978-0-7190-6467-8..

This makes me think there won't be good information to be found, but perhaps I am wrong. The sources, as always, will tell.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 01:12, 29 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The United States Holocaust Museum in Washington D.C. includes extensive discussion of Serbs and Roma victims, as well as Jews in Craotia. See their article "Axis Invasion of Yugoslavia" and in particular the section for Croatia. Many Western historians also talk of genocide in reference to both Serb and Roma victims, among them Jozo Tomasevic, author of widely cited books on WW2 in Yugoslavia, Michael Phayer, the German historian Alexander Korb, etc — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomislav101 (talk • contribs) 03:43, 29 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and so add material gradually and make it clear by the judicious use of sources that it's actually relevant to the Holocaust. It shouldn't be so hard if things are as you say. Genocide per se is not the same as the Holocaust.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 03:51, 29 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well it's either add it here, or start a new article on Genocide in the Independent State of Croatia, which also covers the genocide against Serbs and Roma, same as the United States Holocaust Museum covers it on their siteTomislav101 (talk) 05:00, 29 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yad Vashem also includes multiple ethnicities in the definition, and specifically talks about Serbs (although I didn't find mentions of Roma). Anyway, the whole idea of mentioning other ethnicities should not be discredited just because there's political discussions on how statistics are presented and used in other contexts. There is no reason to exclude other ethnicities from the definition, since it does not reflect the reality on how the word "Holocaust" is used. - Anonimski (talk) 07:08, 29 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Tomislav101 etc, World War II persecution of Serbs already exists, and its specific scope is the genocide of Serbs by the NDH. I suggest you focus your attention there, it needs it. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 10:57, 29 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Excluding it here is still an incomplete presentation of facts, since many, for example The United States Holocaust Museum in Washington D.C. and Yad Vashem include multiple ethnicities' fates when describing the Holocaust. While I agree on that this article's focus should be on the Jewish victims, there should also be a segment with info about what happened to the Serbs and Roma, with "Main article: [...]" templates to World War II persecution of Serbs and Porajmos. As for the other article, I think I need to find a long unbroken period of free time in order to deal with the many issues there, especially when suggesting which sections to keep/move/trim in the parts tagged with "may stray from the topic"... - Anonimski (talk) 18:30, 29 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A much better treatment of this topic is presented on the Croatian language wiki page - here. Unlike this article, the Croatian laguage version doesn't get lost in trivial detail (like banned soccer clubs), and that article also presents much more information on the important facts - mass extermination, concentration, camps, itd. Other article also includes mentions and sections on Roma and Serbs, same as US Holocaust Museum, Yad Vashim and other international sites

Second question - why did you revert my description of the establishment of first Ustasha concentration camps, and shipping of first Croatian Jews to same? You also reverted my quote of a leading Ustasha leader, Andrija Artukovic, on the extermination of Jews. How are those items not relevant to subject of Holocaust, but 2 banned soccer clubs are?71.135.46.58 (talk) 08:42, 30 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

What I suggest is that this article be brought closer into line with the Croatian language article on the same subject - Holokaust u NDH, since as mentioned, that article has a lot better, a lot more relevant information on the subject. I will start bringing some of that information hereTomislav101 (talk) 01:05, 1 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm adding minor sections about the persecutions against the Serbs and the Roma now, per previous discussion. The disagreements between various Wikipedians in the linked discussion in the beginning will not override Yad Vashem and the United States Holocaust Museum. - Anonimski (talk) 21:25, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Orphaned references in The Holocaust in the Independent State of Croatia

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of The Holocaust in the Independent State of Croatia's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "USHMM":

From Nazi crimes against the Polish nation: "Poles: Victims of the Nazi Era", United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, [1]
From Nazi eugenics: "Close-up of Richard Jenne, the last child killed by the head nurse at the Kaufbeuren-Irsee euthanasia facility". United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. Retrieved July 29, 2011.
From Lwów Ghetto: "Lwów". Holocaust Encyclopedia. United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. Retrieved 2006. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)
From Warsaw Ghetto: United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Warsaw Ghetto Uprising Last Updated: May 20, 2008.
From Jasenovac concentration camp: United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
From Treblinka extermination camp: Holocaust Encyclopedia (10 June 2013). "Treblinka: Chronology". United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. Archived from the original (Internet Archive) on 5 June 2012. Retrieved 9 December 2013. Deportations from Theresienstadt and Bulgarian-occupied territory among others.
From Timeline of Treblinka: Treblinka: Chronology
From Łachwa Ghetto: Pallavicini, Stephen and Patt, Avinoam. "Lachwa", An Encyclopedic History of Camps, Ghettos, and Other Detention Sites in Nazi Germany and Nazi-Dominated Territories, 1933-1945: United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. [2] (last accessed September 30, 2006)

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 01:03, 18 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No Mention That Serbs Were Killed ? Name Manipulations ?

Why there is no mention in the introduction that Serbs were the principal victims of the holocaust ? Why do you use "SIRMIUM" for Serbia ? Are you hiding something here? YES ! You do not want to write the Truth : Serbs were killed in the monstrious way during WWII in Hitler's Croatia that was supported by Nazi ! STOP MANIPULATIONS 1. in first paragraph you have to write that is all about killing Serbs ! 2. do not manipulate Serbian names for their lands and their people!