Talk:Northrop B-2 Spirit

Having been originally copied from [1], this article reads a bit much like a press release. Could probably use some work to tone it down. -- nknight 15:00 Mar 15, 2003 (UTC)

Yeah indeed this article is awful! Chinaren.com 22:36, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Be Bold. How about helping improve things yourself? Making language less press-release like doesn't even require much research. It should be easy to search for other B-2 material in order to gt a more balanced view pretty easily. You're a Wikipedia editor just like everyone else ... the easiest way to fix a page is to fix it. —Morven 00:55, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Uh...why was this page moved? RADICALBENDER★ 02:56, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I moved it because it is better known as the B-2 Bomber than the B-2 Spirit.

Whitfield Larrabee

Er, no. The official name is B-2 Spirit. B-2 Bomber can redirect to B-2 Spirit. [[User:RadicalBender|R<sm

"This aircraft was mainly built to be used in a Nuclear War, not peacetime."

Isn't this a tautology? A combat aircraft like a bomber, by definition, is only employed in a war setting.

---

I found the third paragraph of the Combat section confusing. Does this just state that the plane only needs refueling without other maintenance between missions? Is this different from other planes? ArrowmanCoder 17:22, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No, it refers to the fact that the B-2 is based exclusively in the continental U.S., and that Operations at Diego Garcia marked the first time that the aircraft had staged from elsewhere. It's also impressive to think that the aircraft flew from the U.S. to afganistan, dropped bombs, and then flew down to the Indian Ocean. -Lommer | ^talk 22:53, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

aircraft cost

this page used to list the cost of the aircraft based on total project cost / total planes produced. I didn't spot any cost information this time (not that I looked very hard), but does anyone have a value for what it would cost to actually build a single plane excluding R&D costs?

I think that's probably classified (or not even calculated). But if anyone else has sources... -Lommer | ^talk 17:36, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Northrop marketing propaganda in the early 90's said roughly $800M if I recall correctly. There was a move afoot at the time to get more B-2s built after George H W Bush basically cancelled the program in his "New World Order" State of the Union speech in January 1991, so these numbers were trotted out to counter the $44.4B (total cost of the program)/20 aircraft math that was being used to criticize the program.--Alanz01 16:15, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

It seems to me that the statement "Some writers have suggested that the huge program cost may actually include costs for other black projects that remain classified" is not properly sourced. It should be deleted if not properly sourced. Also, if some writers have said this without any substantial source for their claims, it should not be in the article because it lacks any substantiation. One could make the same claim about any governmental expenditure. I published an article on the B-2 several years ago and I never came across any claims that part of the disclosed cost was attributable to other black programs. Whitfield Larrabee 04:39, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Can someone explain to me how information contained in the reference for the cost: [2], justifies the $2.2bn figure? Or provide a different reference? Breadandroses 19:35, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

dangerous gasoline

Is it true the B-2 spirit is fueled with a special gasoline that is highly dangerous to humans? --Abdull 18:57, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

No, it uses standard JP-4 or JP-8. The fuel you're thinking of is probably hydrazine, a very poisonous fuel that its auxiliary power unit (a small engine in the aircraft used to power the B-2's various systems when the engines are off and there is no external power available) uses. Hydrazine is used in other aircraft's APUs as well, so the B-2 is not unique in this regard.--Alanz01 16:15, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Comment on Specs Section Photo

The image of the B-2 dropping the large number of bombs in the specs section is an 80 weapon drop Mk82 flight test bomb run performed over the Pacific Ocean off Pt Mugu in 1994.

Name of B-2s ?

B-2s are all named "Spirit of (state)". When was this practice adopted? If original 135 were made, there wouldn't be enough states to be named and reduced 75 is still more than the number of states. -- Revth 00:47, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Although the number of B-2's was reduced to 75, the number was further reduced to 21, if the article here is correct, solving the issue of the number of states. Although surely if the original 135, or later the 75, were made then this system of names would be changed.--The1exile 17:45, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't remember when that policy was implemented but it was certainly after the final buy reduction decision. I do know they were named after states that had major players in the B-2 program - California (Northrop), Washington (Boeing), Missouri (Whiteman AFB) and for example the home state of the Chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee (Georgia) and other such criteria.--Alanz01 20:09, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Either the List of names is incorrect, or this statement is incorrect. As the last time I checked there is no state of "Kitty Hawk"... I do not know which is incorrect, but would hope some who does would correct this.

It's an exception to the rule - sort of like the naming of the "USS Hyman G. Rickover", when the "Los Angeles"-class submarines are nearly exclusively named for cities. There are lots of these... --SebastianP 20:04, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Why is the Spirit of Oklahoma nicknamed the Spirit of San Francisco? Is it really nicknamed that or is it an error? 205.174.22.28 01:37, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Second paragraph confusing.

I have issues with the second paragraph. It starts off claiming:

Originally designed to deliver nuclear weapons during the Cold War [3], support for the B-2 dwindled as military spending declined in real dollars during the Clinton Administration.

but then:

The original procurement of 135 aircraft was later reduced to 75 in the late 1980s. Finally, President George H. W. Bush reduced the final buy quantity to the 21 already bought in his now famous "New World Order" State of the Union speech in January, 1991.

which contradicts it: if the numbers were dropped to 21 by Bush I, this was before the Clinton Administration.

Then it says:

In May of 1995, in a study commissioned by Congress, the Institute For Defense Analysis concluded that after the demise of the Soviet Union, there was no need for more B-2s. As a result of public outcry over its cost, opposition from the Pentagon's Joint Chiefs of Staff and increasing opposition in the U.S. Congress, only 21 B-2s have been produced instead of a total of 135 planes as had been proposed.

Yet the previous sentences stated that Bush I kept the numbers down to 21; no further cuts were made.

Finally, the next sentence:

Given that much of the cost of the B-2 was in research and development, the cost per unit would have been much lower if all 135 had been produced.

seems to reference an original unit cost figure which the article previously contained? Without that figure, this sentence lacks context.

I'm not expert enough on the topic to reconcile the differences easily: anyone more knowledgable who can bash this into a coherent and truthful shape? —Matthew Brown (T:C) 21:12, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

It's confusing but not necessarily contradictory. George H W Bush did reduce the buy to 21 aircraft. However, for several years after that (into the Clinton Administration) Northrop and a Seattle-area Congressional Representative lobbied to get authorization for an additional 20 or so aircraft approved by Congress. The were unsuccessful since the B-2's support was flagging both in the USAF and in Congress by then. I seem to recall that the DoD was not interested at all in buying more B-2s; they'd moved on to JSF and F-22s by then.--Alanz01 22:51, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I recall the same chronology as Alanz01. N-G had a big drive for employees to write their representatives, etc to increase the number up from 21. There may have been action from the employee PAC (yes, N-G had/has a Political Action Committee on behalf of its employees in addition to its own lobbying). --KNHaw 19:04, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

NPOV

This article was originally copied from a US military website and in parts still reads like it ("The B-2 can bring massive firepower to bear anywhere on the globe." .. "Its low-observable, or "stealth," characteristics give it the ability to penetrate an enemy's most sophisticated defenses and threaten its most valued, and heavily defended, targets.") It needs some tender, loving NPOV editing and some additional sources.--Eloquence* 14:23, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I worked on the B-2 program for about 10 years [ 1982-92] as an Engineer in the manufacturing side - and retired from Boeing in 1995. I've noted that most all discussions as to program cost -or cost per plane- do not take into account the tremendous extra costs involved in security constraints. When mixed in with the 'write -off' of tooling and normal start up costs of any aiframe, the distortion makes good press for the "" $$5000/per toilet seat "" "hyperbole types, but adds nothing but smoke to the few real facts that are available. Trying to compare the resultant B-2 airframe costs to a commercial airframe cost structure is an exercise in futility. So lets back up a bit and consider the expected cost **savings ** involved which, if one looks carefully were publicized in the late 1980's when the program came out of the black world. Examples include 1) not having to have xx support aircraft per bomber force to take out missle defenses before sending in the bombers. 2 ) By reducing the number of 'support' aircraft and their tankers, logistics, etc, the cost of a bomb-missile on target is significantly reduced over the LIFE of the bomber and especially during training missions, etc. But back to 'production' costs which, when stripped of the security costs, and based on amortizing the tooling costs over say 120 aircraft AND a chance to come way down a classic learning curve, would probably come out to be only about 2 to 3 times that of a comparable weight commercial aircraft airframe. Yes the 'development' costs of using composites in a major structure WAS high, but the long term maintenace costs of the airframe were reduced- compared to its 'aluminum/titanium ' counterparts. Yes the costs of maintaining the Stealth characteristics is expensive- but that is a unique military cost- and its costs should be applied to the ' force reduction ' portion of the equation. Just what those split/relative percentage costs are I do not know and are probably still classified. I think it is sufficient to say that the unique-military and security costs probably amounted to the MAJORITY of the widely touted 'program' costs used to assign the x billion/plane numbers. As time progresses, I'll try to add some of the publicly available facts/handouts I've stashed away which will be more specific. Don Shuper 08:22, 23 February 2006 (UTC) UPDATE MARCH282006 RE B-2 COSTS- Here is an short extract that sums up the cost issues on the B-2. It was found in an excellenta series of articles in the recent issue of Aviation WEEK March 27,2006 The cover listed as ' The B-2 dividend" and internally as "Legacy of B-2 Bomber Innovations Apparent in J-UCAS and Other Programs By William B. Scott" found at http://www.awstonline.com/avnow/news/channel_awst_story.jsp?id=news/032706p1.xml

=

" During the Cold War, weapon system performance was given top priority, trumping cost considerations. Whatever resources were deemed necessary to meet national security goals, they were made available, despite the cost. "We kept a top-10 list of [B-2 concerns] on the briefing-room wall," Myers recalls. "We were seven years into the program before 'cost' made that list." But those days are gone. "I'm not sure we'll ever see another program like that again," he adds." [Albert F. Myers, Northrop Grumman's corporate vice president for strategy and technology.Myers joined Northrop Corp. in 1981 as manager of B-2 flight controls engineering, and later served as chief project engineer, then deputy program manager and vice president of test operations. ] "

I'd suggest that the above quote and referenced appropriately would be appropriate for inclusion into the basic discussion/history of the B-2 program.

Thanks for finding that AW&ST article. It has several items that might benefit the Wikipedia B-2 article. Above quote is interesting, but there are already so many cost-related statements in this Wikipedia article that it feels unbalanced. By comparison see the more balanced articles on F-117 and SR-71. I like the above quote, but just adding it to the article as currently written seems problematic. If the article was restructured it might fit better. I'll try to do that and incorporate the above quote. Joema 11:27, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Another minor correction - the article claims "An additional cost driver was that the mission was changed in 1985 from a high altitude bomber to a low altitude penetrating bomber, which required a major redesign"

While it was no doubt a cost driver - the low altitude mission change was anticipated and the essential structural related changes were well underway BY 1985. I believe 1982-83 would be a better date for a mission change.

Side note - There shoul be an old av week report around somewhere that describes the most recent irag ' war' and the use of the B-2 which described the 'gotcha' regarding initial deployment that most missed. because of the high commercial air traffic across the atlantic- and the need to maintain secrecy- the initial trips wound up reguiring the b2 to fly at about 20,000 feet-well BELOW all commercial flight lanes. This in turn required more tanking due to the higher fuel consumption, etc. -" best laid plans of mice -men- and military planners aft gang aglay "

==

The prime directive of an encyclopedia is simply describe the topic. Yet most of this first section pontificates on the project cost. A reader could go away knowing little about the topic except it's allegedly costly. That is a failure of the main mission of an encyclopedia -- to describe the topic. The topic is not titled "controversy of B-2 cost". If someone wants to write a separate article on that, feel free.

An example to help illustrate. Look at Project Apollo. It cost far more than the B-2, yet the first section doesn't go into huge detail about cost, the scientists who were against it, etc. Why? Because the main purpose of an encyclopedia is to describe the topic.

Another example (military this time). Look at M1 Abrams. That system was very expensive, complex, and controversial. Yet the first section doesn't spend 80% of the space elaborating on that, on "questions remain about whether it will work, whether it's worth the cost", etc. Why? Because the main purpose of an encyclopedia is describe the topic.

Does that mean you can't mention cost or political issues at all? No, but the space devoted to that should be balanced and in line with other articles on similar subjects, and similar articles in other encyclopedias such as Britannica and Encarta. Joema 15:47, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Before applying this tag, I think it needs to be discussed. First of all, the existing article has both positive and negative aspects of it. Secondly, the examples you gave are likely true, though perhaps they need to be reworded. Thirdly, even though the source of the article might have been a government page, the text has been extensively rewritten. I know, because I have contributed chunks to this page (none of which read in the manner you are pointing out.) —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 14:31, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually, you've got it backwards. The NPOV dispute tag is applied and then a discussion is initiated; see Wikipedia:NPOV dispute#How to initiate an NPOV debate?. The tag is only removed when there is a consensus to do so, that is, when the dispute is over. You cannot simply claim that this is the case because you disagree with the person who initiated the dispute; the tag does not state that the article is not neutral, it states that there are neutrality objections against it, which is a fact. Your removal of the tag is therefore inappropriate and against policy, and I have reverted it.

I have voiced my objections to specific passages. That other passages are more balanced is not the point. If I find the time, I will give the article a copyedit (the German version reads much better), but until the objections are resolved, the article is rightly and properly marked as being in dispute.--Eloquence* 14:52, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I see. So you're continuing the fashionable trend of slapping the {{npov}} tag on any article that doesn't read the way you want. Great. —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 15:02, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it not appropriate to just slap a NPOV dispute tag if you have an issue with just a few sentences. Just change them and then discuss the changes in the talk page. If the article was seriously biased and others did not agree to change to NPOV, then you could slap a "NPOV dispute tag" on it. Note that no one 'disputed' any changes you recommended.

I examined some earlier versions, and I agree there were a few "peacock" terms that weren't consistent with an encyclopedic tone. However the solution is remove just those, not jam a bunch of pro/con stuff into the article. Our primary goal as encyclopedia writers is simply describe the topic, not pass judgement on it. That applies no matter how strongly you feel about it. E.g, the Wikipedia articles on abortion and evolution simply describe those topics, they don't slant the coverage, or burden it with "Crossfire-style" pro/con positions.

The Wikipedia article on automobiles doesn't fill half of the first section discussing the environmental costs, or how cars have killed more people than all 20th century wars combined. Why? Because those aren't immediately relevant to describing what a car is, how it works, who developed it, etc.

If you want a better idea what this article should be like, examine these: Joema 21:45, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

• [4]
• [5]

Just because a person is a pacifist doesn't mean he/she can slap NPOV tags willy nilly on anything he/she doesn't like. (note the indirection of the comment) Get rid of it. Haizum 05:05, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

If nobody objects, I'll be happy to revise the article to be more consistent with other similar articles, e.g, Tupolev Tu-95, B-52 Stratofortress, B-1 Lancer. Even if that doesn't please everybody, it would be a better base from which to continue changes, as the current version has so many problems. Joema 16:35, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Would it be appropriate to mention the problems with the B-2 in the Pentagon's Operational Test and Evaluation 2003 Annual Report[6]? It mentions that the B-2's sortie rate is still below it's original requirments and its Defensive Avionics systems still dont work properly. Ill add an external link to the document, but Ill hold off on any other changes till Ive heard other's opinions. DarthJesus 22:23, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

The guiding principle is an encyclopedia article should describe and explain the topic, not critique it. It's OK to mention some problems and limitations, if those are appropriate and don't outweigh the main article. Consistency is important. It's illogical if an article is saturated with criticism, yet other similar articles about more problematic systems have none. E.g, there's no criticism in the Wikipedia articles on V-22 Osprey, B-1 Lancer, Harrier II, and B-58 Hustler. Yet those systems were much more problematic than the B-2. That makes it appear someone with a vendetta influenced the article, which calls into question the scholarly impartiality and even the legitimacy of an encyclopedia.

So yes it's OK to mention some of those items, but it should be in good taste and purely informational in nature, not like a "60 Minutes" investigative journalism piece. In general such items should be an exceedingly small percentage of the article, and the tone should not be critical. Joema 23:15, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

ADD TO COMBAT SECTION

---

one was shot down over Serbia in 1999...

No B-2 has ever been shot down or even crashed. You're probably thinking about a F-117 Nighthawk. Joema 14:07, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Range?

"Later missions to Iraq were launched and returned to Whiteman AFB in Missouri." Launched from where? The distance from Baghdad to Kansas City, Missouri is almost 11000 km. The distance from Diego Garcia to Baghdad is much more than 4000 km. The range of the aircraft is only 12000 km -- does this actually mean 24000, 12000 each way (in contradiction to Range (aircraft))? Joshua Davis 20:51, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure they used aerial refueling, as depicted in the image in this article. Aerial refueling is used even for aircraft with longer range than the B-2, such as the B-52 Stratofortress. Joema 17:19, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Naming vs First Plane Delivered

One paragraph states that the first B-2 delivered was the "Spirit of Missouri", whhile the list of B-2 names below lists 7 bombers numerically before it. Now, I'm sure the explanation is nice and simple, and my own guess would simply be that plane was specifically picked to be the first delivered due to it's name, since they were to be station in an AFB in Missouri. However, I would like to know more. How did the others get their nicknames? Where they used for testing first, thus making the first manufactured after that group, also beingthe first w/o a nickname, the first to be delivered? I would assume that AV-1 through AV-7 are also in service... is this so? I just feel there is some more, good information out there I don't know yet, but would like to. --Reverend Loki 21:45, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Aircraft design

I am sure not much is available on why the aircraft has such atypical angles and overall design; but a brief synopsis would be appreciated. --DragonFly31 14:23, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Rate of climb

The article doesn't list rate of climb in the performance section, nor does it say it's classified. All that's there is the unit markers. BioTube 17:39, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Contrary statement

The B-2, akin to the F-117, relies on very low observability and signature. This condition is compromised if the aircraft is flown in wet conditions. This is false.

I've removed the later part of the quote as it contradicts itself. Feel free to add it again if we can determine if it is true or not. // Azninja

Holloman AFB suspends flight operations for the F-117 because, as one woman who worked there put it, ‘the planes are made of cardboard and come unglued during the rain’. Since the B-2 uses the same (or similar, I forget which) materials it should be in the same boat. TomStar81 09:21, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

B-2 antigravity speculation removed

Removed long speculative digression about B-2 leading edge electrostatic charge improving thrust or lift via (essentially) antigravity. No rational basis for this, depite being published as speculation in 1992 Aviation Week (Not Jane's Defense Week). This is an encyclopedia not Usenet. I believe the article is reprinted here: [7]. Joema 14:12, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

• I just want to say "thank you" for your initivie in removing that frankly stupid section of this article, and I just want to say that I wish I bothered to take such initivite myself. 24.9.10.235 21:12, 2 September 2006 (UTC)