Talk:Congress Poland

Adam Czartoryski

The article refers to a Adam Czartoryski, to which exactly does it refer?... Adam Casimir Czartoryski or Adam George Czartoryski ? - Jaberwocky6669 07:39, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)

Objection

'In 1863 the January Uprising started. The constitution was abolished and the political entity was directly incorporated into the Russian Empire - later even the name was changed into official name of "Vistula Country" (Russian Privislinskiy Kray).'

I've got an encyclopaedia printed in the Imperial Russia in 1909. According to it, the Constitution of 1815 was abolished in 1830, and the official name of Poland was not changed. The name 'Vistula Country' was popular among more nationalistic Russians then. Mapple 07:18, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Respect of law

Instead of revert warring, please provide a reference for or against the disputed sentence (below).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 17:48, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

In reality all opposition to tsar was persecuted and the law was disregarded at will by Russian officials.

Puppet state

Is "puppet state" really the right term here? I mean Congress Poland was generally accepted as part of the Russian empire, just with extended autonomy. Maybe it should be called "autonomous area" or something of that sort instead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.202.92.233 (talk • contribs) 20:33, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I think "puppet state" is the right term. It had its own border, currency, customs, legal system, army, etc that is separate from Russia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 42.2.165.115 (talk) 00:06, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

I do not think "puppet state" is the right term. A puppet state is a formally independant state, the leaders of which are manipulated (like "puppets") by the government of another country (it could be told of the duchy of Warsaw as a puppet state of France) ; but in this case the same person is leader of the two countries (Russia and kingdom of Poland) ; the kingdom of Poland, then, was NOT formally independant : the Congress had indicated that it was distinct from the Empire of Russia, but related for ever to it. Fundamentally, is it logical to think that Alexander king of Poland was manipulated by Alexander tsar of Russia ? J. Richard --78.115.60.59 (talk) 12:55, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

To do

Interesting article's from pl wiki about CP government: pl:Rada Stanu Królestwa Polskiego, pl:Rada administracyjna and pl:Konstytucja Królestwa Polskiego. Done: Namestniks of Kingdom of Poland.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  23:22, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Done, done, and done.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 12:53, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Abolished after January Uprising?

The article itself says that it was abolished after 1863. So why does the infobox say -1915? My sources also say that it was renamed to "Privislinskii krai," so is there any indication that the name remained except as a geographical expression (principally outside of Russia)?--James Honan-Hallock 01:14, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

See Vistulan Country for more details on this issue. The country was not officially abolished, but in practice, most of the autonomy and self-governance was taken away.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 12:53, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

derogatory use of 'congressmen'?

I came here from the article on Galicia which has on the discussion page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Galicia_%28Central_Europe%29) the following comment: "Many of the inhabitants of Southern Poland are proud to be Galicians (as opposed to "those barbaric Congressmen")." Is this a 'real' enough phenomenon to be mentioned or discussed in this article? Richardson mcphillips1 (talk) 03:27, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Moved pictures

I moved all the pictures and templates to the top of the page just under the infobox - for me it removes the large amount of whitespace created by placing the titles at the beginnings of sections (which pushes the actual text to below the infobox). Don't know what it does on other browsers, so please adjust further if someone has a perfect solution. WLU (talk) 12:44, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Re-write

I tried to clean up the language in the article and ended up re-writing most of the page. I think I only changed the wording and added citation templates, but it could definitely use a good once-over by someone more familiar with Polish history than I. WLU (talk) 14:37, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Succession by the Vistula land/Privislinsky Krai

As was noted above, there is much confusion over the issue of how to distinguish the Congress Poland from the Vistula land/Privislinsky Krai. As far as I know, the Congress Poland was never officially abolished. Yes, there were many major internal changes, and the post-1867 Congress Poland was indeed quite different - but arguing that it was replaced in 1867 by a new entity, Privislinsky Krai, is dubious. If one is going to make such an argument, please provide proper sources per WP:V. Also, please note that pl:Królestwo Kongresowe doesn't acknowledge the Vistula land as a state-level successor.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 02:46, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

To centralize the discussion, please direct any replies to Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Poland#Privislinsky_Krai.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 00:00, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Notes

a ^{^} Sources agree that after the fall of the January Uprising in 1864, the autonomy of Congress Poland was drastically reduced. They are however contradictory on whether Kingdom of Poland, colloquially known as Congress Poland, as a state, was officially replaced by the Vistula land, a province of the Russian Empire, as many sources still use the term Congress Poland for the post-1864 period. The sources are also unclear as to when did the Congress Poland (or Vistula land) officially end; some arguing it ended when the German and Austro-Hungarian occupying authorities assumed control; others, that it ended with the creation of the Regency Kingdom of Poland in 1915; finally, some argue that it occurred only with the creation of the independent Second Polish Republic in 1918. Examples:

• Polish Academy of Sciences, Institute of Geographical and Spatial Organization, p. 539, [1]
  • Template:Pl icon Mimo wprowadzenia oficjalnej nazwy Kraj Przywiślański terminy Królestwo Polskie, Królestwo Kongresowe lub w skrócie Kongresówka były nadal używane, zarówno w języku potocznym jak i w niektórych publikacjach.
  • Template:En icon Despite the official name Kraj Przywiślański terms such as, Kingdom of Poland, Congress Poland, or in short Kongresówka were still in use, both in everyday language and in some publications.
• POWSTANIE STYCZNIOWE, Encyklopedia Interia:
  • Template:Pl icon po upadku powstania zlikwidowano ostatnie elementy autonomii Królestwa Pol. (łącznie z nazwą), przekształcając je w "Kraj Przywiślański";
  • Template:En icon after the fall of the uprising last elements of autonomy of the Kingdom of Poland (including the name) were abolished, transforming it into the "Vistula land;"
• Królestwo Polskie. Encyclopedia WIEM:
  • Template:Pl icon "Królestwo Polskie po powstaniu styczniowym: Nazwę Królestwa Polskiego zastąpiła, w urzędowej terminologii, nazwa Kraj Przywiślański." [...] "Po rewolucji 1905-1907 w Królestwie Polskim ..." [...] "W latach 1914-1916 Królestwo Polskie stało się...".
  • Template:En icon "Kingdom of Poland after the January Uprising: the name Kingdom of Poland was replaced, in official documents, by the name of Vistula land." However the same article also states: "After the revolution 1905-1907 in the Kingdom of Poland" and "In the years 1914-1916 the Kingdom of Poland became...".
• Królestwo Polskie, Królestwo Kongresowe, Encyklopedia PWN:
  • Template:Pl icon 1915–18 pod okupacją niem. i austro-węgierską; K.P. przestało istnieć po powstaniu II RP (XI 1918).
  • Template:En icon [Congress Poland was] under German and Austro-Hungarian occupation from 1915 to 1918; it was finally abolished after the creation of the Second Polish Republic in November 1918

Ajh1492 (talk) 00:53, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Why was the note removed from text? I am restoring it. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:47, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

The creation of the Kingdom created a partition of Polish lands in which the state was divided and ruled between Russia, Austria and Prussia.

I think that this sentence is not like a natural sentence in logic. Is "the creation of the Kingdom"'s meaning Vienna Congress? Thanks in advance —Preceding unsigned comment added by 藏骨集团 (talk • contribs) 11:05, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

About Vistula Krai

I was reeding through collection of legal acts of Russian Empire ( http://civil.consultant.ru/reprint/books/172/1.html), and one of the basic laws of 1892 uses term "Kingdom of Poland", not "Vistula Krai". So the statement about complete abolition of Kingdom of Poland seems to be untrue. Is it possible that terms "Vistula Krai" and "Kingdom of Poland" were used simultaneously? Budgie1988 28 january 2011 (UTC)

It is, we would need to look at more sources to see what the scholars write on that. I am going to restore a note we had on that in the article that seems to have been removed without any explanation a while ago. PS. I moved your post to the bottom as on Wikipedia we use bottomposting. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:46, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

One could nominally use Kingdom of Poland during the entire time period or Vistula Krai during the latter period. My objection is any use of Congress Poland which was never the name. Leave Congress Poland as a redirect and explain it's use in the article lead paragraph, but not as the article name. Ajh1492 (talk) 20:15, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

That is a point suited more for a dedicated WP:RM, I'd think. I'd have to think more on it, certainly, before I'd have an opinion. Note that pl wiki article is at pl:Królestwo Kongresowe (although the lead goes: "Królestwo Polskie (potocznie Królestwo Kongresowe, Kongresówka" - Kingdom of Poland, colloquially Congress Poland). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:19, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

B-class review

Failed for WPPOLAND due to insufficient inline citations (quickfail criteria). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:21, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Question

Although it is clear that Polish autonomy mostly ceased in 1831 and, quite officially, all residues of it were cut in 1867 (with the Tsar dropping "King of Poland" from his title, renaming of the country to "Vistula province", etc.), I wonder whether it can be said, as the article does, that it was entirely from the onset (which would mean including the years up to 1831) nothing more than a province of Russia.--2001:A61:21CC:C701:D19D:1F37:A9C6:40B8 (talk) 14:57, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

The sentence I am referring to is: Thus from the start[!], Polish autonomy remained little more than fiction.--2001:A61:21CC:C701:D19D:1F37:A9C6:40B8 (talk) 14:59, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

I'd suggest reading the reference for this sentence: Agnieszka Barbara Nance, Nation without a State: Imagining Poland in the Nineteenth Century, Dissertation for the Degree of Doctor of Philosophy, The University of Texas at Austin, pp. 169-188. It purports to support it, so checking with the source would be the first step. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:52, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Please rewrite this sentence

This sentence is very confusing on the first read:

"Though officially the Kingdom of Poland was a state with considerable political autonomy guaranteed by a liberal constitution, its rulers, the Russian Emperors, generally disregarded any restrictions on their power. "

How about this:

"Officially the Kingdom of Poland was a state with considerable political autonomy guaranteed by a liberal constitution. However, the rulers of Congress Poland, the Russian Emperors, generally disregarded any restrictions on their power. Thus it was effectively little more than a puppet state of the Russian Empire." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.18.211.203 (talk) 16:23, 24 March 2016 (UTC)