Talk:List of Lego Ninjago characters

Article needs to be chopped

Though I know it's very important for fans of the series to keep adding more and more detail, there are some significant problems with this article that are not consistent with a number of Wikipedia guidelines. Per the the Manual of Style for Television:

"Remember to follow the notability guidelines when creating a cast list: Not every fictional character ever created deserves to be listed"

"Try to avoid using the section as a repository for further "in-universe" information that really belongs in the plot summary; instead, focus on real world information on the characters and actors."

"The character descriptions could include main plot points about the character—followed by any relevant real world information that could include, but is not limited to, casting of the actor or how the character was created and developed over the course of the series."

From WP:MOSFICT:

"An in-universe perspective describes the narrative from the perspective of characters within the fictional universe, treating it as if it were real and ignoring real-world context and sourced analysis."

"Many fan wikis and fan websites (see below) take this approach, but it should not be used for Wikipedia articles. An in-universe perspective can be misleading, inviting unverifiable original research. Most importantly, in-universe perspective defies community consensus as to what we do not want Wikipedia to be or become."

"Fictography – an article or section about a fictional character written like a biography, placing, for example, undue emphasis on titles or birthdates despite their being unimportant to the plot or interpretation."

There's much more. But the bottom line is that there is far too much detail in this article, far too much emphasis on in-universe language and events, far too much plot coverage, and virtually no real-world content. I will likely be taking a stab at cutting this article down significantly in the upcoming weeks. For scope, please note what was recently cut from the 2012 TMNT character list. This is the severity of the cuts I am proposing. Note also that part of the concern has to do with copyright concerns. Excessive logging of detail and presenting it in this style format can be considered a derivative work, which is a violation of copyright. Our job as editors is not to replace the experience of watching this series. It's to present a rough overview of the most important information. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 19:36, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Whatever bloat gets cut for being uncited, could it be life-boated here for review to see if cites can be located to support it for subsequent restoration? 184.145.18.50 (talk) 23:49, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

We don't use talk pages as repositories for all the crap in articles that gets cut. That's why we have edit histories. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 03:22, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

I understand that the character list isn't a place to rehash plot, but I'm confused. Why not just cut everything from the individual characters' descriptions then, except for basic need-to-know things? For example, "Lloyd Montgomery Garmadon/Green Ninja/Golden Ninja:- The son of Sensei Garmadon and Misako, nephew of Sensei Wu, and grandson of the First Spinjitzu Master. Lloyd is the Master of Energy, and the leader of the team. Though introduced as a child, he has been aged by magical tea up to the same age as the other ninja". There, three sentences long. Or even less: "Lloyd Garmadon/Green Ninja:- The Master of Energy and leader of the team". If apparently updating it with things that happen in the newer seasons, aside from new characters, is too much in-universe material, why not just take everything but the basics out? 2 April 2016 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.37.245.184 (talk • contribs)

Yes, much of what's in each description should be pared down significantly. Note this cut performed by another editor at a Turtles article. The article will never get any shorter so long as there is long-winded prose inviting casual editors to add what they perceive to be salient plot points: "it was revealed in Episode N that so-and-so likes vanilla ice cream." Cyphoidbomb (talk) 04:19, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

If there’s no objection, I’d like to take a crack at paring down this article, as per Cyphoidbomb’s suggestion. I may not be able to edit some parts of the article (those from seasons 6-7), because I am not familiar with that subject. Noah Kastin (talk) 02:41, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

@Noah Kastin: I have no objections! I simply don't have time to do it, and it's not really my area of interest, so if you are so inspired, crack away. I suspect the chief objections you will receive will be in the form of editors silently restoring much of the cruft, which may be irritating. You might also consider removing any characters who only appeared once, or who didn't have a really significant role in the entire series. We aren't here to replace IMDb, and Wikia can always be the go-to repository for information only fans care about. Regards, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 03:08, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

I just posted a big edit to the page, along the lines of the previous discussion. This reduces the level of detail of description on each character, and removes plot summaries. I still have to edit the sections on seasons 6 and onwards. Season 7 has not been released yet — perhaps I ought to remove the material on that entirely.

I’m not sure what to do about the minor characters. I can remove some minor characters, especially ones who are only in sets and do not appear on the TV shows. Alternately, I can add some minor characters who are missing. Any thoughts? Noah Kastin (talk) 05:52, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Vandalism ??

Can someone in the know look at the edits of 196.216.11.159 this month - they may be vandalism as that source has vandalised another Wiki article. Viking1808 (talk) 18:39, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

Character voice actor info

For some of you who don't know it yet, they have used other voice actors when it comes to the characters appearing in other projects like Lego Dimensions and the upcoming movie The Lego Ninjago Movie. Do you think we should list the othe voice actors for the characters since the intro to the character page listed the all other media part of it? --Rtkat3 (talk) 17:06, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Help request for stability

Hi there! I’ve discovered five different types of material which are frequently added to the page, and which cause problems for the usefulness and stability of the article. These problems are, as follows:

1. Plot details are often mentioned in character descriptions. As discussed on the talk page, under “Article needs to be chopped”, these should not be included.
2. The way characters look is often mentioned in their descriptions. This seems likely to cause a problem, as character descriptions could easily become very long. (For example, Kai has more than ten different ninja suits, each with their own distinctive appearance.)
3. The titles of Wu, Garmadon, Yang, and Dareth keep changing. At some times they are written as Sensei, while at other times they are written as Master. The former title is used exclusively in the TV show, and the latter is exclusively used on Lego’s website. Both are correct, but apply to different areas. Possibly for this reason, editors will often modify the titles of these characters, causing the article to be unstable.
4. Last names for four characters (Kai, Cole, Zane, and Nya) are regularly added, but there are no official sources I can find confirming last names for these characters.
5. Frequent errors with grammar, redundancy, typos, formatting, and occasionally ambiguity.

Is there some way that these problems can be stabilized (in the case of 3 and 4) or avoided (in other cases)? If anyone has any suggestions, please state them here.

Thanks! Noah Kastin (talk) 01:14, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Noah Kastin you are correctly noticing all of the same problems I've been seeing in this and similar articles. I see the two possibilities to be either constant scrutiny and maintenance or long-term protection. For the time being I've protected the article for a month to hopefully stimulate discussion from some of the interested casual editors. Regards, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 02:07, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Meaning-changing edit?

Hi, 86.4.212.166! Thank you for contributing to this article! I noticed an edit you made to this article a few days ago, saying that Kai became more even-tempered “especially before episode 10”. However, I believe this occurred after episode 10. If you think this actually occurred before episode 10, please say so here, and we can try to achieve consensus. Otherwise, I will change this text to something along the lines of “starting after episode 10”. Thank you again! Noah Kastin (talk) 00:45, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

I don't believe IPs get notifications, so I've dropped this user a talkback. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 01:30, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Content Reversion: 2/22/17 UTC

Hi, Sceptilefan and SuperMarioZaki1! Thank you for your edits!

I have reverted these edits, as they do not comply with Wikipedia guidelines, for the following reasons:

• Sceptilefan’s first edit was reverted, because the content added may not actually be true. (I can’t find anything saying that Kai was the oldest.) Also, it was not in the citation after it.
• Sceptilefan’s second edit was somewhat irrelevant. Although Lloyd was the Green Ninja/Chosen One, by the time he became the leader of the Ninja, this fact was barely mentioned.
• Sceptilefan’s third edit had grammatical issues.
• SuperMarioZaki1’s edits were reverted because most of their content was uncited, and it was about future events. I am looking into restoring the content about current events which could be cited, namely the parts about the Time Twins and Vermillion.

Thank you again for your edits!

Noah Kastin (talk) 01:51, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Sorry Sceptilefan if I mentioned you twice, but I realized that the username of the other person was not the one I wrote, thus possibly triggering the double mention. Please forgive the mistake. Noah Kastin (talk) 01:55, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Content Reversion: 1/29/17 UTC

Thank you, 86.4.212.166 and Xigua7, for your edits to this page.

I have reverted these edits, as most of them do not comply with the guidelines for the page, for one of three reasons:

1. They describe events in the story (and should be removed, as discussed here).
2. They describe character appearances, which likely is a problem.
3. They have formatting or grammatical errors.

I have re-added to the article the parts which do not have any of these problems.

Thank you again for your edits!

Noah Kastin (talk) 09:35, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

This discussion was originally held on my talk page, but has now been moved here, as I deemed it to be more appropriate here, according to Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines. Noah Kastin (talk) 07:12, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Content Reversion: 3/6/17 UTC

Thank you, Pollychow2003, for your edit!

I just reverted this edit, as it contained an uncited last name for one of the Ninja. As discussed on this talk page, under "Help request for stability", bullet point 4, this is a problem.

Thanks again for your edit!

Noah Kastin (talk) 05:49, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Should characters' death be mentioned?

Hi! I know that plot details should not be mentioned here. The question is: Does a charcter's death count as a plot detail, or as something important about the character which should be mentioned here? This is relevant because a few characters on this list have officially died. If anyone has any opinions, please let me know. Thanks! Noah Kastin (talk) 23:56, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Complex edit: 3/19/17 UTC

Thank you, Agarak, for adding so much great information to this article!

I just made some modifications to what you added:

• Added:
  • more citations.
  • possibly important facts.
• Deleted:
  • possibly unimportant facts.
  • facts which were not in the citations.
  • statement that Krux is Dr. Saunders. (I can’t find any reliable sources for this. Brickipedia, the only source I can find supporting this, seems to disagree with itself about this; on Krux's page, it says that he is Dr. Saunders, but the page “Dr. Saunders” redirects to Acronix’s page.)
• Fixed wiki-markup, whitespace, typographical, ambiguity, and structural errors.
• Changed "Time Twins" to "Hands of Time" and “time vortex” to “Time Vortex”, as that is what they are called in the citations.
• Made other information more citable.

And thanks again, Agarak, for adding all of that great information in the first place!

Noah Kastin (talk) 02:16, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

By the way, Agarak, I just wanted to elaborate on the thanks:

• I appreciate the addition of all of the Lego references. I didn't realize that Lego had updated their website, thus adding a lot of useful material to their website.
• I really appreciate the Day of the Departed references. (I assume that that's what the "episode 65" references for Sensei Yang and his students were for.) I removed the episode numbers from them (as I think Day of the Departed officially has no number, like the pilot episodes) and added the title. This was done for clarity, as Season 7 episode 1 will probably be labeled "episode 65". However, like I said, the references were very useful. It didn't occur to me to cite Day of the Departed as a source for the information on Sensei Yang and his students.

Again, thanks for adding all this! It was very useful.

Noah Kastin (talk) 04:56, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Page problems: 3/19/17 UTC

Perhaps you all can get together and cut this article, add reliable secondary sources, drop all the links to the Lego website, and make this look like an encyclopedic article rather than the Lego Wikia. Drmies (talk) 04:59, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Hi, Drmies! Thanks for stopping by! In response to your concerns:

Can you please clarify what needs to be "cut"?

I can't actually am not in a position to find any secondary sources for this article. The only sources I can find am in a position to use are the TV show and Lego's website. Would replacing all links to Lego's website with citations to the TV show be preferable?

Thanks! Noah Kastin (talk) 05:41, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

That is precisely the problem with this and other such articles: they are merely product listings based on primary sources. Drmies (talk) 10:11, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Hi, Drmies! I agree that adding secondary sources would be a great improvement to this article. If you want to find some secondary sources, that would be great! Thanks! Noah Kastin (talk) 00:37, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Request to move page to List of Lego Ninjago characters

Hi! I noticed that, due to a lot of information about the Lego Ninjago theme in general, this page might more aptly be called List of Lego Ninjago characters. Reasons include:

• Listed characters who only have an extra part in Lego Ninjago: Masters of Spinjitzu, but also appear in sets and at Lego's official website, https://www.lego.com/en-us/ninjago.
• Added information from Lego's official website, which is about the theme in general (including the two edits made by Agarak on 3/17/17 UTC).

In short, List of Lego Ninjago: Masters of Spinjtizu characters suggests that it is a list of characters from the show, whereas List of Lego Ninjago characters suggests that it is a list of characters from the theme in general, which is what it seems to be.

If anyone has any opinions, please let me know here.

Thanks!

Noah Kastin (talk) 05:34, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Content Reversion: 3/23/17 UTC

Hi, 41.162.36.250! Thank you for editing Wikipedia!

I have just reverted your edit, because it contained uncited information about the Hands of Time/Time Twins. The only information I can find about them is on Lego's website, on the character pages of the Hands of Time, which did not include this material. Also, as far as I know, the seventh season of Lego Ninjago: Masters of Spinjitzu, which might contain more information about these characters, has not yet aired.

If you have any questions, please let me know.

Thanks!

Noah Kastin (talk) 01:39, 23 March 2017 (UTC)