Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television

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WikiProject Television (Rated Project-class)
WikiProject icon This page is within the scope of WikiProject Television, a collaborate effort to develop and improve Wikipedia articles about television programs. If would like to participate, please visit the project page where you can join the discussion.
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True Detective (season 1) — featured article candidate[edit]

Hello! I have nominated the article about True Detective's first season as a featured article candidate. Feedback and comments would be greatly appreciated, at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/True Detective (season 1)/archive5. Thank you for your time and consideration. DAP 💅 5:38, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Recent mass changes to categories[edit]

So, my watchlist has become flooded with the edits by Carnelian10, a relatively new editor who has decided to modify the categories used by television series, merging and removing them, who now has almost 1,800 such edits. Many of the changes have modified the genres listed in the categories, which we know is a big no in the WP:TV, or removed valid categories, which multiple editors have had to revert or re-add. I attempt to post on their talk page, but received no reply. Was there any discussion or consensus to do so? Should it have had such a discussion? -- AlexTW 01:19, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Have just noticed this also. The editor has seemed to create a number of sub-categories, which from the ones I've seen have largely involved separating categories by country of origin (eg. "Lists of drama television series episodes" to "Lists of Australian drama..."), with the latter category created by the editor just days ago. Quite widespread changes for a newbie editor -- Whats new?(talk) 01:29, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Have noticed this as well but since I don't usually play with categories, I wasn't sure if it was ok or not. But it's been widespread enough that I noticed it at all (I have way more films and books on my watchlist than TV articles) which is saying something. Millahnna (talk) 02:21, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

I noticed that the "Lists of American television series episodes" required diffusion, and also concluded that "television series episodes" (for any country) is too broad a category and should be a placeholder for sub-categories. It is recommended that editors be bold. Also, once you have, for example, "British sitcom television series episodes", there is no requirement for an episode list to continue to be featured in both "Lists of British television series episodes" and "Lists of sitcom television series episodes" as they are redundant. It was a good faith exercise in cleaning up the rather bloated category pages. Thank you. Carnelian10 (talk)

One of the main issues with what you have been doing, say with this edit, was you better categorized the crime cat, but completely removed the drama one as well, which should not have been done. You should have done both. I don't think there is a problem with adding articles to more specific cats if we can, but the process by which Carnelian is going about it is like a half attempt. As I pointed out, they are either completely removing cats or adjusting others to new or different genres that may need discussion. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:01, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Hello Favre1fan93 - I feel that "drama" is a very bloated, generic category, and "crime drama" is effectively redundant since many shows are listed under "Crime". Ditto, drama series could be moved to something more specific (legal, medical etc.) - Carnelian10 (talk) 07:26, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
@Carnelian10: That one isn't really something you can mass determine without some discussion. Further clarifying by the county I can understand, but you need to have a discussion regarding full out removal of a genre such as drama. I would highly suggest you return to all the articles you edited and readd this back, and then come back here and start a new discussion regarding your concern of it being "very bloated" so other editors can discuss with you the best course of action. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:27, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

The editor at hand[edit]

The previously-discussed editor is now involved with myself in a discussion about adding guest and absent cast to the plot summaries of episodes in the Wentworth season articles, a topic that has previously been discussed here, and episode counts, a concept that has very clearly been deprecated. Respective members of the WikiProject Television are invited to partake in the discussion at User talk:Carnelian10 § Wentworth. Cheers. -- AlexTW 08:30, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

A small request that other WikiProject Television members contribute to the discussion, because if I remove the episode counts and guest lists in the episode summaries, the editor will surely revert me once more, preferring to edit-war than discuss civilly. They need to see that consensus stands through the discussions that have been held here. Cheers. -- AlexTW 23:42, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
I have removed the episode counts per WP:TVCAST. @Carnelian10: Please read that and understand that is established consensus, and very recent too. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 04:39, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Moving a Featured List article.[edit]

If you look at this Category:Lists of American Western television series episodes you'll see there are 20 Western TV series listed. All of them are named following the format "List of <series name> episodes" -- all except Gunsmoke which has been called "List of Gunsmoke television episodes". Since there is only one series called Gunsmoke with episodes to list I don't think we need it to be called this and propose to move it to "List of Gunsmoke episodes" to fall-in with the other 19 titles in the category; the superfluous "television" seems to be an unnecessary disambiguation. Does anyone have any concerns over my wanting to do this? Were is not a FL I'd probably have gone ahead, but since it has such a high standard I don't want to straight away incase I've missed thinking of something that would make it a bad move. — Marcus(talk) 16:52, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

The reason this list has "television" in its title is to differentiate it from List of Gunsmoke radio episodes. Gunsmoke had such such a long run in both mediums of entertainment that I thought it best to give the two lists separate entries, much like some some recording artists with long careers have both singles and album discographies. Jimknut (talk) 15:16, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
@Jimknut: I was not aware that there is also a radio episodes article, until just now. I guess that means we do need some form of diambiguation between the two. I think "List of Gunsmoke television episodes" looks better than "List of Gunsmoke episodes (television)" would. So, might as well just leave things as they are. Thanks for your feedback, much appreciated. — Marcus(talk) 16:33, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
You're welcome. Jimknut (talk) 18:26, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

After-cancellation petitions[edit]

Has there ever been any discussion of practices regarding discussion/mention of after-cancellation petition drives to save cancelled shows? They seems to be common as dirt these days, and constantly crop up in articles, generally to be removed in fairly short order. I just removed one from The Doctor Blake Mysteries which was even in the lede. To my mind, they're about fans, not the show, and as such are fancruft. Any views on this? --Drmargi (talk) 17:45, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

They are only cruft if they cannot be sourced to a reliable, secondary source. --Izno (talk) 19:48, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
Agree. They're cruft and should be removed. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:53, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
@Izno: Cruft is defined by importance, not reliability of sources. This is a classic example of cruft: aside from a few dedicated fans, who cares if there is a petition drive? The producers certainly don't, and again, these petitions are about the fans, not the show. --Drmargi (talk) 20:01, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
I'd argue petitions are notable if they result in something (ie. a particular petition is the direct result of a show being cancelled, renewed, etc) but otherwise to my mind its no different to including "X number of fans tweet about the show each episode" or other trivial information about the average hardcore fan. -- Whats new?(talk) 23:57, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
Unless the petition has some sort of effect on the show, even if it doesn't save the show but is addressed by those who make it in some notable way, then I wouldn't include it. - adamstom97 (talk) 06:09, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
@Drmargi: WP:WEIGHT is established by an topic's presence in WP:RS, which is what defines a topic's importance. So, yes, the reliability of sources is certainly important. --Izno (talk) 11:56, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Updates to WP:TVPRODUCTION[edit]

Posting a final call for any comments to updated wording for WP:TVPRODUCTION. The proposed updates are Proposal 2 in the discussion found here. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:36, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Critical, creator and fan reception to betrayal and fanbase rivalry at the Lexa (The 100) article[edit]

Hi, everyone. Opinions are needed on the following dispute at the Lexa (The 100) article: Talk:Lexa (The 100)#Inclusion of betrayal and fanbase rivalry section. A permalink for it is here. The issue concerns whether or not these two aspects of the fandom should be covered in the article. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:32, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Also note that, for anyone who doesn't want to be spoiled on this series, the discussion does contain a significant spoiler. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:35, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

OMG, what a massive collection of fancruft. Everything should go, and a good bit more besides. --Drmargi (talk) 00:14, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
Best if you reply there with your reasons and a basis for deleting the content, against the already-existing solid reasons for keeping it. -- AlexTW 00:19, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
Thanks, AlexTheWhovian. I certainly don't see how WP:Fancruft applies. If fancruft is the case (despite the critical and creator commentary on everything I've included in the article), then a number of our WP:GA and WP:FA articles should be de-listed. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:48, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
Seriously? They're using fan group portmanteaus, arguing over relationships, taking sides, etc. And that was as much as was readable. It's ALL fancruft and as good as example as I've ever seen. Bear in mind: I don't watch the show, so I have no vested interest. That makes me completely objective. People invested in the show can't make a judgment about what is fancruft the way someone objective can. Believe me, it's silly, it's trivial and it's complete, classic and unmitigated fancruft. --Drmargi (talk) 01:15, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
So, the same discussion is being held in two places now? As I said. Best if you reply there. -- AlexTW 01:23, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
Drmargi, yes, seriously. Jugging by the discussion you had with Izno above and what you are arguing now, you do not understand what fancruft means. Do read the WP:Fancruft essay. The things you are calling fancruft with regard to the Lexa (The 100) article are significant aspects of that character's notability and/or reception. Reception to a character includes fan reception, not just critical reception. In the case of the Lexa article, I've included all three -- critical reception, fan reception, and creator commentary on the reception. The creator and various media sources have quite literally responded to all of the things you are calling fancruft, which means the material is not just some silly and/or irrelevant material we should not cover. Lexa's betrayal, for example, was a big part of the character's arc. Looking at the various reliable sources I've included on these matters, or a simple Google search, will show you that what I've included on the character is what is significantly discussed with regard to the character. This character was a part of a huge debate in 2016. What should the article consist of if not what I included? To be clearer, I know how to be objective when writing a Wikipedia fictional character article. I include the plot summary, the creation and development of the character, and then the reception to the character. None of that is fancruft. I've contributed to a number of fictional character articles being elevated to GA and FA. Have you? How many GA and FA character articles should I point you to doing the same thing I've done? Given your definition of fancruft, I think that you not having watched the series is irrelevant. In any case, AlexTheWhovian is correct. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:46, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
There is nothing wrong per say with the content. THe header for the section could be adjusted. I think there is some organizational issues in the article and the plot section for 2 seasons is WAY too long. Looks like someone wrote something about every single episode she appears in, instead of summarizing the overall events. Separate discussion. TO the point, there is nothing wrong about collecting fan reaction, as long as it is reliably sourced by third-party sources and not just fansites or blogs talking about it. Or anecdotal evidence. It looks like you have good sources, but I didn't read the content to see if it's presented differently. Also, "fan" should be avoided. I would replace "fan" with "viewers", as that is more professional when writing and you don't have to be a fan of the series to have an opinion after watching what happens. Overall, a lot of great content in there...just needs a good copyedit and structuring. But yes, "fan" reaction is acceptable if it's covered by reliable, third-party sources.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 11:55, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for commenting, Bignole, after I requested your opinion. I'd still like to hear from TAnthony, but I understand if he'd rather not weigh in. I get what you are saying about the plot summary; as I noted in an edit summary (in the article's edit history), I literally copied and pasted that content from the List of The 100 episodes article and then tweaked the additions and filled in any missing detail. I've tried to think of a way to trim it, but because the character was recurring, important context is missing for any trim that my mind comes up with. Without that context, it's literally like a collection of Lexa scenes that leave you wondering what is going on. But, like I noted on the article talk page, I do intend to source the plot section, even though it currently names the episode for each plot arc. Removing the name of the episodes and letting them exist via references will trim a little of the plot. As for "fan," I used that and "fanbase" for two of the headings and for a few other instances because the sources do and "viewers" is more general. Most of the reception regarding this character concerns the Clarke/Lexa fanbase and the views on the character's demise. To state "viewers" in these cases seems too general, when it's really just a subset of the show's viewers. Also "fanbase rivalry" flows while "viewer rivalry" or "viewership rivalry" seems odd. But I'll likely be integrating that section anyway. And I do state "viewers" at some points in the article. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:53, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

It would help if people here would actually read the article (I note some haven't) and comment on the article's talk page. When the content was initially removed I looked at what was removed and the editor did have a point - there was redundancy and the discussion of the fanbase (which is actually the best way to describe it) was not as significant as it seemed to be. For example, two of the references used are from the same source and another mentions fan reaction as a minor point. The removing editor later noted that the article was overly long. When you compare related articles, this too seems a valid argument. The article for the main character is a mere 860 words and doesn't mention mention Lexa at all. Even the main series article is only 1,792 words. This article though, which is about a recurring character who appeared in less than 30% of episodes, weighs in at a hefty 8,282 words. I made a fairly brief comment,[1] and was immediately attacked with rubbish about an RfC that had nothing to do with what was removed. --AussieLegend () 04:21, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Yes, it would help if editors actually surveyed the sources on this character. We can only work with what the sources mostly cover. Like I stated at the article's talk page and above, I looked at the sources regarding this character. The vast majority of the sources about this character concern her relationship with Clarke and her demise. The article reflects that. The sources regarding this character are very much about the Clarke/Lexa fanbase. The redundancy claim is asinine when the following is considered: The "Reception" section of MOS:TV specifically states, "Generally, this would be where critical response to the character—not necessarily an analysis of the character, like what would be found in the 'Characterization' section—would be placed." I noted at the article talk page that I'm not going to include portrayal and creator analyses of a character's motives (a betrayal in this case) in a section that is specifically about reception to those motives. Not unless I think it flows better there. There is no redundancy; one section includes what went into the writing and portrayal of Lexa's betrayal, and the other includes how fans and critics felt about the betrayal. Two different things. All in all, this a personal taste matter. When it comes to fan reaction to Lexa's betrayal, I noted that I was not going to focus on that, as there was not much more to state on it, and that the viewers' opinions on it is literally summed up by the quote from Andy Swift of TVLine. And before that quote, I sum up the fans' feelings. There are other sources commenting on fan reaction to Lexa's betrayal; I simply have not included them. Should I engage in citation overkill? I don't think so. When it comes to the Clarke/Lexa vs. Clarke/Bellamy matter, this is also significant to the Clarke/Lexa fanbase, which is why both the creator and Clarke's portrayer (Eliza Taylor) have weighed in on the matter; see here and here; I haven't yet included that TV Guide source. If this was not a significant aspect of the Clarke/Lexa fanbase, there would not be reliable sources on it and the creator and Eliza Taylor would not be commenting on it.
As for a supposed attack with regard to a previous RfC, and the size of the article, people can see what I actually stated. I noted that I go back to what people have stated about Battlefield Earth and similar articles; I also included my detail of Jennifer's Body as an example. Some editors feel that these articles have too much detail simply because these films were massive box office and/or critical failures. Similarly, it's clear that a few editors feel that the Lexa article should not get the detail her article gets simply because she was a recurring character or because they find the character trivial and/or dislike her. I repeat: "I'm not going to sacrifice the comprehensive quality of this article simply because some find this character trivial and/or feel that the reaction to her was blown out of proportion, and therefore that the attention given to the character in this article is undeserved. I'm not going to sacrifice the comprehensive quality of this article simply because the Clarke Griffin article is currently in poor shape or because editors have not expanded The 100 (TV series) article in the comprehensive way it can be expanded; that article is lacking. There are a number of character articles as big as, or bigger than, [the Lexa article]; featured article Pauline Fowler is an example. Given the abundance of sources on Lexa, the fact that Lexa was a recurring character is irrelevant when it comes to how we should cover her impact." The Avatar (2009 film) article that I elevated to GA has a lot of detail as well. But, of course, many people have no issue with the level of detail in that article. I, however, recently suggested on its talk page that we should consider if anything there needs cutting. So I am not blinded by things that I like; I do, however, cover all significant sides of a topic when writing an article. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:24, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Character articles for The Flash (2014 TV series) and Supergirl (TV series)[edit]

I've been meaning to ask: How should I title character articles concerning The Flash and Supergirl shows? Flash (Barry Allen) exists and so does Supergirl (Kara Zor-El), but there's enough content out there to give these two characters their own articles with regard to the television shows. I want to create one for Barry Allen, Iris West Allen, Supergirl and Lena Luthor. I plan to start with Supergirl.

For a point of reference, see the Smallville character articles, like Clark Kent (Smallville) or Lana Lang (Smallville). Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 05:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

I would think "Supergirl (Supergirl)" and "Flash (The Flash)" if available, but I also understand if you might want to try avoid double-ups like that. Another option would be "Flash (Arrowverse)" if you discuss his appearances on the other shows, but that one won't really apply to Kara. - adamstom97 (talk) 05:26, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, "Supergirl (Supergirl)" and similar sounds odd. I'd prefer to add "Arrowverse" instead. I plan to try the exact setup as the Smallville articles, if possible. I might have to improvise if there is not enough material. Generally, I gather many reliable sources, then I read the sources to see what they focus on so that I have an idea of what the significant aspects concerning the character are, and then I work on the article in my notepad before posting the content. In this case, I might use a sandbox for input from editors...in case they think I am over-detailing something or missing something. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 05:36, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
In other words, I really want to do these articles justice, especially seeing how the show articles are written well and are kept so neat. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 05:40, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
Sandboxes are always good if you have an idea for an article but want to get it right first. I do think the "Arrowverse" disambig will be good if appropriate—I did something similar with Claire Temple (Marvel Cinematic Universe), which I haven't got critical response stuff for yet, but I made due to all the creation/development info I found. - adamstom97 (talk) 05:51, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
Can't this type of content be incorporated into List of The Flash characters and List of Supergirl characters? I don't see what value having individual articles on those characters adds to Wikipedia or how it isn't redundant/duplicate content.
Barring reason, wouldn't (again following the examples above) Barry Allen (The Flash) and Kara Zor-El (Supergirl) work? I mean, it kinda makes my skin crawl but it would be consistent. Plus also, the extant Oliver Queen (Arrow). (please excuse me while I now go mutter to myself "wikipedia is not wikia, wikipedia is not wikia") —Joeyconnick (talk) 05:55, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
See for Claire Temple, I'd go with Claire Temple (Daredevil) even though the character has appeared on subsequent Marvel Netflix shows. Also, Marvel Cinematic Universe isn't really the right fit to me... "cinematic" means film. But yeah, I know that's what the franchise is called and that for some reason the Netflix shows are lumped into it, as I guess the Freeform ones will be too. *sigh* The capital U in Universe also makes my skin crawl. LOL —Joeyconnick (talk) 06:00, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
Joeyconnick, I find this similar to what you, Jclemens and others are currently arguing at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Television about standalone episode articles. I understand where you are coming from, but I wouldn't be suggesting the creation of these articles if I didn't think they could be validly sustained. Sure, there will be some redundancy, but that doesn't mean that the articles shouldn't be created. Look at the Smallville character articles. There is portrayal, creator and reception commentary concerning these characters (Flash and Supergirl) that currently is not covered on Wikipedia. I don't think all the characters from the shows should have their own articles, but some should. As for your suggestion to use "Barry Allen (The Flash)" and "Kara Zor-El (Supergirl)", the issue is that we already have articles titled that. The italics are not actually in the titles; the italics are added by Template:DISPLAYTITLE. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:39, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
I struck that last bit; I see that your suggestions are different. Yeah, those would work. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:44, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
Adamstom.97, the Claire Temple (Marvel Cinematic Universe) article looks great. Thanks for linking to it. I'll use that as an example as well. I might need to use a similar setup for one or more of the characters. There might not be enough on Lena Luthor, but I'll try with Barry, Kara and Iris. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:48, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
As I said on my talk page, I would go with Barry Allen (The Flash), Iris West (The Flash), and actually Kara Danvers (Supergirl), as she is primarily known and credited as "Danvers" and not "Zor-El" in that show.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 11:56, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for the advice, guys. I'm going to use "Barry Allen (The Flash)", "Iris West (The Flash)," and "Kara Danvers (Supergirl)." I might start with Barry first, but I'm not sure. Whichever I create first, I do know that I will post the material to a sandbox and ask for opinions on it here before having it go live. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:26, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
On his talk page, Bignole pointed to Oliver Queen (Arrow), which is another example to look at. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:30, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
At lease within this universe, there is also Sara Lance. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 23:44, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
Another good example. Okay, I have enough to look to in order to do these articles justice. But I will still be doing that sandbox thing for peer review. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:49, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2017 May 3#Template:Game of Thrones background colors[edit]

You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2017 May 3#Template:Game of Thrones background colors.

Discussion: This is in concerns on whether or not a template should be used to replace repeated colours within a television series article, using templates such as {{Game of Thrones background colors}} and edits such as this. -- AlexTW 07:47, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Originally, I believed that the editor was only planning to execute their edits on a few article; however, they have since stated that they plan to do it for every television series and their articles. -- AlexTW 13:36, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
Looking more at this case, that's what I get from it too. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:45, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Talk:List of Drake & Josh episodes#Link episodes[edit]

Assistance and thoughts are welcome here. For context, see this. Thanks. SkyWarrior 03:03, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Oh, Lord – someone is going to have to go through and WP:PROD most of these. Drake & Josh episodes are not going to be independently notable pretty much no matter how you slice it... --IJBall (contribstalk) 05:49, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

interpretation of MOS:TVCAST order[edit]

Hi,

Can someone let me know if I am misinterpreting MOS:TVCAST in this edit as per Amaury's reversion here? My understanding (and the way the section is written) is that original cast credited order is not about changes per season, but any change to the main cast list, even if the those changes occur from pilot to episode 2 (hence Kelly Hu still being listed at The 100 (TV series)#Cast and characters. —Joeyconnick (talk) 05:36, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

This was discussed before here. Amaury (talk | contribs) 05:41, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
I don't watch Beyond – can you two spell out what the exact issue is here?... --IJBall (contribstalk) 05:44, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
@IJBall: The billing status of one of the actors was different in the pilot compared to the rest of the episodes, similar to Henry Danger and Stuck in the Middle, the latter of which was the credit order being different from the pilot from episode two and onward. Amaury (talk | contribs) 05:47, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
So, is this like The 100 and Kelly Hu, where an actor was only credited for the pilot?! Or is this like Stuck in the Middle, where the cast order changed between episode #1 and episode #2?... If it's the latter, that's a tougher case to deal with. --IJBall (contribstalk) 05:51, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
@IJBall: It's like The 100 (also like Henry Danger), yeah. Amaury (talk | contribs) 05:58, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
So... we agree it's the same situation as The 100? In that case, I believe the way I edited the article follows that convention (i.e. the person is include, with a note to indicate their billing as main was limited in a certain way). —Joeyconnick (talk) 06:03, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
Not necessarily. As mentioned, pilots are, well, pilots. They differ from the rest of the series because they're basically prototypes, a test to see if the series is going to be well-received among other things. Many series will produce their pilots, but never air them and go straight to the next episode. That's why when pilots do air, we'll go by the second episode if the second episode onward is entirely different with regard to credit order, billing status, etc. Sometimes when pilots are skipped, they'll be made available as a bonus in the form of a lost episode or the like, whether it be on a DVD, online, or what have you. If we use that logic, should that mean that when that happens, we should change the credit ordering or billing if there are any differences? No. Amaury (talk | contribs) 06:10, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
The guideline says "original broadcast" so the situation you describe is a red herring. If the pilot isn't released, it wasn't part of the original broadcast. If it's later released however, that's a special feature, not an actual part of the series broadcast. So no, I'm not arguing we should have to go and retroactively edit the order if an unbroadcast pilot is later released. I am arguing that if the pilot is broadcast as the first episode, it's broadcast as the first episode and we follow the guideline as written. If the pilot was "good enough" to broadcast, it's good enough to use for the initial cast order. —Joeyconnick (talk) 06:31, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
I do think that this version deals with these issues satisfactorily – but I may be biased: I liked the use of "informational notes" like this... --IJBall (contribstalk) 06:15, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
Constantine is another example of a show where someone starring in the pilot was not starring in any subsequent episodes (in this case she was written out), and after discussions there it was decided that in the scope of the whole series, she should not be listed as a starring cast member. - adamstom97 (talk) 06:18, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
The other version also has informational notes, so I'm not sure if that's a good deciding factor. —Joeyconnick (talk) 06:33, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) But, yeah – this is one of those cases where following the "letter" of TVCAST, in regards to a TV pilot, may not be the best idea. It's clear that the casting changed significantly between the pilot and the rest of the series, which makes the pilot sort of the "odd man out", and it's probably not the best idea to base the cast listing off the pilot in this case... So I think the use of the current 'notes' does the trick. (Note: Again, I have not watch this series, so I'm going just off what's at the article, and what you two are saying.) --IJBall (contribstalk) 06:19, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
The point of WP:TVCAST is to provide a consistent and neutral way to list cast. In the past we had people listing cast according to the number of episodes in which they aired, but that causes issues. We also had people listing the cast differently in the infobox and the article body, which also adds confusion and inconsistency. If we start making exceptions we may as well just delete the MOS completely. For most TV programs, there is not a lot of difference between the pilot and subsequent episodes. If there is, a note in the prose is the best way to handle it, as is done at The 100 article. --AussieLegend () 06:23, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) @IJBall: I can indeed confirm this from finishing the first season the other night. c: And small spoiler here if it's of any "help," Kevin, who Jordan Callaway portrays, is murdered a few episodes in, possibly why his role was changed. Amaury (talk | contribs) 06:25, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
And, again, we talked about this very issue during the MOS:TV discussions on TVCAST. Because pilots are often substantially different than TV series, to the point where some pilots are virtually different TV series, you can't always base TV cast listings off the pilots – you have to go by episode #2 and all subsequent episodes in a few rare cases. I am not saying this happens often – but Constantine and Beyond look to be two good examples where this is the case. Guidelines are guidelines: following them will make the most sense 98%, 99% of the time, but not 100% of the time. These two series are examples of this. Again, as long as all is explained in the kind of notes use at Beyond, or the kind of text (and references) used at Constantine, I'm not seeing a problem. --IJBall (contribstalk) 06:28, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
By that logic, these are really minor differences between pilot and episode 2... we're talking 2 cast members, one of whom by the pilot billing is included in "Main" and one whose order in "Main" changes. That's not what I would call "substantial". It's not like they broadcast an initial pilot and then completely retooled the series—my understanding is that generally when there's a major retooling, they reshoot the pilot and the original is never aired as part of the series. Also, following the letter of MOS:TVCAST is supposed to help us avoid debates just like this. —Joeyconnick (talk) 06:37, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
It is substantial enough. It doesn't have to be anything too crazy to be substantial. In episodes after the pilot, his credit was even specifically changed to a guest starring credit. It's not like some other series, where someone was still main cast and just being credited as starring only in the episodes they appeared in. The downgrade was specifically reflected in the series' credits. Likewise for the other. Amaury (talk | contribs) 06:44, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
(ec)And, again, we talked about this very issue during the MOS:TV discussions on TVCAST. - You might have talked about it, but there is nothing in the MOS to provide an exception and I don't see consensus at the discussion that supports your position. Others did say that the method used at The 100 is the best, or at least a good, way to handle such changes. It provides for consistency throughout the project, and that's what the MOS changes were all about.
In episodes after the pilot, his credit was even specifically changed to a guest starring credit. - That's really irrelevant. If a person is demoted to recurring, they still remain listed as starring, per the MOS. --AussieLegend () 06:47, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) If they were demoted after a season or even after a non-pilot episode, then yes, they should remain listed. However, again, pilots are prototypes, and no matter how small or big, there will always be differences in the pilots compared to the rest of the series. (There could be multiple reasons for someone's billing status being downgraded from a main role to a guest/recurring role.) As such, we go by the second episode onward if from the second episode onward everything stays consistent, though different from the pilot, of course. Amaury (talk | contribs) 06:53, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
You're never going to get 100% consistency – not only is it an impossible goal, it's probably also an undesirable one. Again, pretending pilot episodes are a "regular episode" ignores everything about how they are made – a good percentage of pilots are unformed blobs that are barely more than a "highlight reel" designed to sell a concept to a network – series often undergo substantial retooling after they are picked up to series. I'm not going to sign on to the idea that we should follow the cast listings based on pilot in 100% of cases. It's simply a bad idea. (Again: see Seinfeld as one glaring example of what I'm talking about...) --IJBall (contribstalk) 06:54, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
BTW, I'm the one that complimented the Kelly Hu situation at The 100 – it is a good solution, for that particular series. But I think the Constantine solution, and the one current at Beyond, are also good solutions for their situations. One size won't fit all 100% of the time... --IJBall (contribstalk) 07:01, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
Why wouldn't The 100 solution work for this series? --AussieLegend () 07:09, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) No, it actually looks to be pretty substantial in the case of Beyond. This is bigger than the Kelly Hu situation, where one castmember disappeared after the pilot – in this show, one was downgraded, and another was made main cast in episode #2 (with third-billing, apparently): that's a far larger change than in the vast majority of pilot-series continuities. I think the current version of the article handles this situation satisfactorily. I do not see a reason to include Calloway in the main cast list based just on the pilot, a la the Constantine situation – it's obvious they decided to go in a different direction after they filmed the pilot... In any case, this is not the only situation of its kind: there's a reason we don't include Lee Garlington in the main cast list for Seinfeld... --IJBall (contribstalk) 06:50, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
You're never going to get 100% consistency, but there is no point to being inconsistent when something can be handled in a way that makes the situation fully MOS compliant. A note explaining why something happened is far more logical than listing cast in a way that can confuse a reader or result in new editors assuming that the way the article exists is a general rule.
This is bigger than the Kelly Hu situation, where one castmember disappeared after the pilot – in this show, one was downgraded, and another was made main cast in episode #2 - This argument seems to be blowing the situation out of all proportion. A note explaining the downgrade of one cast member is no different to the Kelly Hu situation. Adding the other cast member to the list, per WP:TVCAST, handles the other issue. It's really no different to what happened to The 100, or any other series. A note should certainly be added to the second cast member's prose stating that the person was upgraded to starring cast after the pilot.
As such, we go by the second episode onward if from the second episode onward everything stays consistent, though different from the pilot, of course. - That's not in the MOS and, as I already noted, there seems no consensus for this position at the previously linked discussion. --AussieLegend () 07:07, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
I don't know how to be any clearer here – MOS is a guideline, and such is not designed to cover 100% of situations, and is not designed to be followed 100% of the time. I care less about the guidelines than the best encyclopedia possible. That is why we have WP:IAR. We can disagree how we get there, but I'm not going to blindly follow a guideline when I think doing so won't lead to the best result... And I think I've said I'm going to say all I'm going to here. I'm certainly not going to sign off on the idea that we should immediately go and add Lee Garlington to the Seinfeld cast list, which seems to be the inevitable conclusion of sticking to the "We must always follow MOS:TVCSAT 100% of the time" viewpoint. --IJBall (contribstalk) 07:17, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
It doesn't matter that the MOS is a guideline. As it says in the template at the top of every part of the MOS, "it is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow". There are certainly times where it is necessary to divert slightly, but if you can comply with the MOS, why wouldn't you? Doing so is best practice. WP:IAR isn't a get out of gaol card. You can't just say "IAR" and do what you want. You need to justify your decision and I don't see any real justification for not complying with the MOS in this article. --AussieLegend () 07:33, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
Regarding Seinfeld, I never watched that program as I simply don't like Jerry Seinfeld. However, I just looked at the pilot (That's time I'll never get back). In its original airing, there were no starring credits. These were added later for syndication, so not including Garlington is entirely appropriate and MOS compliant as we list according to original broadcast credits, and the syndicated version was was not the original broadcast. The first broadcast credits were in the next episode, which is listed as episode 1 in many sources. --AussieLegend () 08:10, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Episode list sublist template[edit]

Updating on the above discussion (summary: convert usage of {{Episode list/sublist}} from {{Episode list/sublist|Destination for transclusion}} to {{Episode list/sublist|Location of episode table}}).

BRFA approved for trial. -- AlexTW 02:49, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Bot trial complete and module updates made. -- AlexTW 23:37, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
Bot approved to make changes to all templates. This is where the changes become permanent. -- AlexTW 04:01, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
@AlexTheWhovian: Unfortunately, since the bot hasn't run, episode summaries have disappeared from season articles, resulting in editors making edits like this to fix the problem. At the same time, summaries have appeared in episode list articles when they shouldn't be, all aparently because of this edit to Module:Episode list. We can't have this sort of disruption for an extended period. A rethink on how to implement this change is needed. --AussieLegend () 17:50, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
List of The Simpsons episodes (seasons 1–20) is broke. I'm sick of babysitting it, and debating how to deal with the problem, and am in wonder that you managed to get approval for a bot to make this mess. Please fix it. wbm1058 (talk) 18:12, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
The idea that, as you claimed to get approval for this, it will not break any pages, no is...#@%! You should have implemented a new parameter or a new subtemplate to transition something like this. wbm1058 (talk) 18:35, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm in full agreement here. We really needed two templates, the original, to keep unconverted articles stable, and a transition template, to which articles would be converted. After all articles were converted, the original template would be updated and then a second bot run would convert all articles back to the original. That way, not a single article would be disrupted. --AussieLegend () 18:59, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
No need for a second bot run. Just implement the new syntax in Template:Episode list/sub-list, run the bot to change everything to use that, then when done, deprecate the old template and just redirect Template:Episode list/sublist to Template:Episode list/sub-list. wbm1058 (talk) 19:33, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
Yes, that's an option too. --AussieLegend () 20:59, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
@AussieLegend and Wbm1058: Entirely overkill. A mountain over a molehill over your impatience. The issue is solved. -- AlexTW 22:36, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
Not at all. Because you chose to modify the module 20 hours before the bot eventually ran, you caused disruption in every article except the 150 that were in the test run. Editors were confused (as eveidenced on this page) and changes were made that could have resulted in articles being broken for an even longer period. One article was severely broken for all of that time. This has all been acknowledged at WP:BRFA. It's not at all the way that a significant change should be made. There are much better ways, as Wbm1058 and I have noted. If you can't accept that, and just keep brushing it off, perhaps you should hand in your TE permission. I can tell you, if you had done this in business the consequences would have been severe, the least of which would have been instant dismissal. --AussieLegend () 03:33, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm not going to have this same discussion in two separate places. Luckily for me, I'm not hired by you, nor is Wikipedia a place to teach me business habits. Cheers to that. -- AlexTW 03:52, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Discussion at User talk:Timmyshin#Please stop moving Hong Kong TV articles[edit]

You are invited to join the discussion at User talk:Timmyshin#Please stop moving Hong Kong TV articles. An editor has been moving a series of Hong TV articles from "(Hong Kong TV series)" disambiguation to "(HK TV series)" disambiguation, which is apparently contrary to WP:NCTV (not to mention confusing!). --IJBall (contribstalk) 13:15, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

  • Note: Discussion seems to have moved to WT:NCTV. I would appreciate it if some of the WP:TV regulars would stop by and offer their opinion on this – if it's just me and the original editor we're not going to get anywhere on this issue... --IJBall (contribstalk) 14:31, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Next MOS:TV discussion - Themes section[edit]

The next MOS:TV section discussion is ongoing. It is on the "Themes" section. You can find the discussion here. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 00:12, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Citation overkill proposal at WP:Citation overkill talk page[edit]

Opinions are needed on the following: Wikipedia talk:Citation overkill#Citations. A permalink for it is here. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:26, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Survivor NZ: Nicaragua[edit]

I have added sources at Survivor NZ: Nicaragua for the people voted out in the first two episodes, but these have been removed on the grounds that other Survivor series do not have such sources and they clog up the tables. I would appreciate some feedback on whether these sources are necessary or desirable at Talk:Survivor NZ: Nicaragua.-gadfium 04:15, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

List of Pretty Little Liars episodes, Pretty Little Liars (season 7) - anyone know what happened?[edit]

I'm looking at the Episodes section in both articles, and something is not right. The summaries for every episode of the series are displaying in the LoE article, while in the Season 7 article, they have essentially disappeared. I don't know when this happened, but there has been some recent spamming at both articles. (IPs have been persistently putting in WP:SPAMLINKs to watch a just released episode week after week.) Anyone willing to fix the problem? MPFitz1968 (talk) 06:10, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

See Talk:List of The Americans episodes § Episode summaries here. -- AlexTW 06:17, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
Thanks, Alex. MPFitz1968 (talk) 06:23, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
No problems. Once Prime's bot goes through and updates the usage of all templates, it'll be back to normal. -- AlexTW 06:25, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
Actually, there are problems, and pretty significant ones as explained above and at WT:BRFA#Re-examination of approval - PrimeBOT 15. --AussieLegend () 19:11, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

Eve - featured article candidate[edit]

I've nominated the article about the television series Eve for Featured Article consideration. This article is a short-lived UPN sitcom yhat revolves around two sets of male and female friends attempting to navigate relationships with the opposite sex. Comments would be appreciated, at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Eve (2003 TV series)/archive1. Thank you for your time. Aoba47 (talk) 19:41, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Content dispute about lead length[edit]

Hello everyone; could I request some third-party eyes on an ongoing dispute at Talk:Inside No. 9#Lead section? Josh Milburn (talk) 11:30, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

Star Wars: Forces of Destiny[edit]

Does this qualify as a TV show or a web series short? Because it's been added to Felicity Jones and I am not sure it qualifies. Govvy (talk) 21:36, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

I wouldn't call it a TV show, and I don't think that article does either. It seems to be a web shorts series, I guess. - adamstom97 (talk) 21:49, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
That's the way I saw it, I removed it from Jones article before, but it was added back to her TV credits and I inclined to remove it again from her TV credits. I didn't get a response when I posted the question on her talk page a little while back. Govvy (talk) 21:56, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Quick clarification needed...[edit]

OK, the following quote is from WP:TVSHOW: "...in most cases, a television series is not eligible for an article until its scheduling as an ongoing series has been formally confirmed by a television network." Does this mean that a series just needs to go into production (for episodes past the pilot) to qualify for an article? (Presumably because, once a network has ordered a series into production for episodes past the pilot, it will surely air the series eventually...) Or does it mean that an approximate premiere date (e.g. "fall 2017") actually needs to be announced before an article is appropriate?... TIA. --IJBall (contribstalk) 00:16, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

I always took it to mean that we need an official series order. That usually comes after a pilot has been made, so we know that at least one episode already exists. For shows ordered straight to series, waiting till production starts is probably the equivalent. - adamstom97 (talk) 01:36, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
OK, that's helpful, as your last point would then apply to the specific case I'm thinking of: Draft:Knight Squad – that means the article shouldn't go into mainspace until production actually starts this fall... Thanks! --IJBall (contribstalk) 02:17, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Single-season LoE articles?[edit]

I've been doing some merging of lists of episodes for single-season TV series back to their parent TV series articles lately, and I'm wondering: is there a quick way to figure out which single-season LoE articles still exist? Is there a category that covers this or something? (And, if there isn't, would it be difficult to create one?...) Because if I can get a list of single-season LoE articles that are still out there, I'd be willing to volunteer to merge the rest of them (where warranted). TIA. --IJBall (contribstalk) 17:01, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict)@IJBall: Well, one of them was Nickelodeon's Sam & Cat, which essentially had a LoE article created even before that series premiered in 2013 (and should not have had one). We did have a discussion about merging on the LoE's talk page, but due to the thirty-some episodes the only season of the show had, there was no consensus to do so. No doubt a huge exception to the rule, but I would be curious that had no LoE been created, due to the large number of episodes ordered for season 1, would there have been a split to an LoE? MPFitz1968 (talk) 17:19, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
Yep – was involved in that discussion, and was aware that it'll be one of the exceptions. But I suspect there are plenty of esp. c.1995–2008 "one-season wonder" TV series out there that have standalone LoE articles that need to be merged. So I'd really like a list of those so that I can start working on merging them... --IJBall (contribstalk) 17:22, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Popular pages report[edit]

We – Community Tech – are happy to announce that the Popular pages bot is back up-and-running (after a one year hiatus)! You're receiving this message because your WikiProject or task force is signed up to receive the popular pages report. Every month, Community Tech bot will post at Wikipedia:WikiProject Television/Popular pages with a list of the most-viewed pages over the previous month that are within the scope of WikiProject Television.

We've made some enhancements to the original report. Here's what's new:

  • The pageview data includes both desktop and mobile data.
  • The report will include a link to the pageviews tool for each article, to dig deeper into any surprises or anomalies.
  • The report will include the total pageviews for the entire project (including redirects).

We're grateful to Mr.Z-man for his original Mr.Z-bot, and we wish his bot a happy robot retirement. Just as before, we hope the popular pages reports will aid you in understanding the reach of WikiProject Television, and what articles may be deserving of more attention. If you have any questions or concerns please contact us at m:User talk:Community Tech bot.

Warm regards, the Community Tech Team 17:16, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

13 Reasons Why?! Really??!!! Dont panic.svg --IJBall (contribstalk) 17:25, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
Also, do we really consider Game of Thrones to be of "Top" importance to WP:TV? – I can see rating it as "High" importance, but "Top" importance really seems like a stretch... --IJBall (contribstalk) 17:33, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
Well, I'm not very surprised by 13 Reasons. I'm more surprised by its general explosion of popularity that led to this. I also agree GoT as top is a stretch. It's mega popular but not like a keystone series. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 18:20, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm somewhat surprised WP:TV doesn't have something like WP:VG/A#Importance scale. --Izno (talk) 20:49, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
There is one: Wikipedia:WikiProject Television/Assessment#Importance scale. It could certainly be fleshed out, though, esp. on the TV series side of things (i.e. it needs more examples...). The criteria needs more work too – e.g. "High" importance should include series that have received international notability, but that maybe aren't "TV defining" (e.g. Game of Thrones). That's something we can maybe talk about – I'll try to remember to bring this up when I have more time in a couple of weeks... --IJBall (contribstalk) 01:25, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
Well, I more meant the cross-categorization with the types of articles this project covers--most projects have something so un-refined as the TV assessment table. --Izno (talk) 01:57, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

Discussion about logo at Talk:Three's Company[edit]

The show logo is discussed at Talk:Three's Company#Show logo. --George Ho (talk) 22:26, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

Comic Relief special[edit]

Comic Relief special is about a particular episode, wouldn't there be many episodes like this for multiple shows? -- 65.94.169.56 (talk) 05:26, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

Adding plot summaries of content that has been hacked/leaked[edit]

Input is appreciated here - on whether it's appropriate to write summaries of episodes that have not been released but were hacked and leaked. Also, whether or not the hack+leak should be mentioned in the lead. Lapadite (talk) 14:01, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

Updating WP:TVINTL[edit]

Hi all. The next discussion on the "Release" section of MOS:TV (including WP:TVINTL) has begun. I hope all will join, as I know this has been a strong discussion point in the past. The discussion can be found here. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:41, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

Another article naming question...[edit]

I just discovered that the articles 1st and 10 (ESPN TV series) and 1st & Ten (HBO TV series) exist. As per recent consensus on the issue here and at WP:NCTV, we should not be primarily disambiguating TV programs by TV network any longer.

So, my question is this – do others think it is sufficient if we move these two articles to 1st and 10 (TV series) and 1st & Ten (TV series) on the basis of WP:SMALLDETAILS? Or should we move these to 1st and 10 (2003 TV series) and 1st and 10 (1984 TV series) to avoid any ambiguity at all?... Thanks in advance. --IJBall (contribstalk) 21:01, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

I feel they are different enough that you could do without the extra disambiguation, and just have hatnotes at the top of the articles that can send readers to the other one if that is where they wanted to go. - adamstom97 (talk) 21:30, 26 May 2017 (UTC)
It might be worth Star Wars: Clone Wars (2003 TV series) and Star Wars: The Clone Wars (2008 TV series) exist, but "the" is the only real difference in their titles. Personally, I'd err on caution and similarly go 1st and 10 (2003 TV series) and 1st & Ten (1984 TV series). ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 22:00, 26 May 2017 (UTC)
OK, will wait for more opinions, but I'm leaning towards the second option now, as there's now one opinion that WP:SMALLDETAILS isn't enough here... --IJBall (contribstalk) 22:34, 26 May 2017 (UTC)
I'd do as TenTonParasol suggested, and use the year disambiguator, plus hatnotes as well. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:55, 27 May 2017 (UTC)