Talk:Catalonia

Location map

I have learned from the Help desk that there is a disagreement about what location map to use for this article. I understand that this argument is motivated by politics, and the issue of whether Catalonia is "part of Spain". I am not interested in that argument, and I don't know or care which side the participants in the argument are on. The purpose of a location map is to help people who don't already know, to understand out where it is. I have restored the map which I believe does this more effectively. Maproom (talk) 22:05, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Catalonia is part of Spain and Europe, the map doesn't say it is not Lliure albir (talk) 22:36, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

That's absurd, Lliure albir. Green map is typical of EU countries, not of regions. It's too big to locate a single region on the continenT. The other regions of Spain used the same red map. I pray end war editions. Satesclop 22:46, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

I oppose Satesclop and I agree with Lliure albir, the map doesn't indicate Catalonia is not part of Spain since Spain is highlighted. — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 23:08, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Maproom, you're not being neutral, the map was added in July 2015 by certain user [1] and no one has opposed it, only Satesclop. Could you explain why the map you restored is better? IMO it is a worse map, because it doesn't show the position of Catalonia within Europe and the world, and because the current political situation of Catalonia and Spain is somewhat special — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 00:25, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

So, that means that we can eliminate the maps of Flanders and Scotland from their respective infoboxes because they show the situation inside Europe? Why Scotland can and Catalonia not? --Jacobí (talk) 01:34, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

• I agree with Jacobí. If Catalonia can't use this type of map, no other polities in Europe should. BlueBirdo (talk) 17:08, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

I prefer the map I restored because I believe that most readers will find it more helpful in showing the position and extent of Catalonia. I am not concerned about the political status of Catalonia, this is a location map. I can see that it might be improved: "in Spain" could be deleted from the caption, the inset showing the Canaries would be better removed, and the colouring (white for Spain, ginger for France, Andorra and Portugal) could all be made white. I could do that myself if it would help. Maproom (talk) 08:37, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

I prefer the green map (above), for me it's more helpful than the current one. I think most people are more familiar with the shape of Europe than with Spain. BlueBirdo (talk) 17:02, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

So, can we restore the green map or not? meanwhile, I restore the original map from July, as a kind of consensus, because it shows Catalonia in Europe but, at the same time, without the European Union and with the borders of the other autonomous communities of Spain, showing clearly Catalonia as a part of Spain. Are you agree? --Jacobí (talk) 13:28, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

I really dislike that green map, and all such maps with the inset in the top left overlying Greenland. The inset is intended to help the reader locate Europe, within a tiny world map that is itself made hard to understand by the way it abuts Greenland and other islands. I think that the number of readers who can understand the inset, and would not otherwise be able to locate Europe on a map of the world, must be 0. If the consensus is in favour of using that map, I can produce a modified version of it with the northern 30% trimmed off. Maproom (talk) 12:52, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

Most of us agreed to use the green map with Europe, so I think it's good Jacobí restored it. I would also request to use the same type of map for the Balearics and Valencia, as we have many visitors from Europe and all over the world. By doing this our visitors could contrast their original location with ours and would make them feel more welcome :) — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 13:04, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

I know I'm a bit late to this, but I'd also like to add my opinion and concur with the consensus. I've reverted the map several times now, and believe that the green map is most suitable, as it shows Catalunya's position not just in the Iberian Peninsula, but also in Europe as a whole. I also concur that this follows precedent with other areas that are in Catalunya's current political situation, and I believe that this better represents the situation on the ground. I know that this may be distasteful for spanish nationalists, but it does best convey the information about the State. You know, I leave my flat in the morning and I see the Estelada everywhere, the only time I ever see the spanish flag is on official buildings, below the Senyera. I go to the cafe, and am greeted with "Bon Dia," not "Bueños." If someone says "Aquí en España...," the first response is, "Catalunya no es Espanya." This is the reality, so why pettifog it? (Alcibiades979 (talk) 09:23, 14 May 2016 (UTC))

Easy: because things are what they are and not what we wish they would be. Catalonia is STILL part of Spain, and it should be reflected as such (within the Spanish map) in what pretends to be an encyclopedia. Facts; that easy. And it is a fact that Catalonia TODAY is part of Spain. Let's not rewrite history and geography on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not the place for that. I am sick of Spanish and Catalan nationalists fighting here... PS: I doubt anyone would say "Bueños" instead of "buenos".--Karljoos (talk) 00:07, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

I take issue with the map that presents Catalonia as if it were a part of the EU - it is not, and can't be, because it's not a proper country. It is a part of Spain, a country that already is a part of the EU. All other autonomous community's pages on WP have the yellow-red type of map, and there's no valid reason not to use it here. Reverted. WP is not a place for propaganda. Mr KEBAB (talk) 20:10, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

The current map doesn't show Catalonia is not in Spain or independent (yet). Moreover Catalonia is not the only territory in Spain and Europe with a green map (see the Basque Country and Scotland)... The fact that Catalonia is politically disconnecting from a stubborn country like Spain (see the latest news concerning this issue) shows the reality and not a dream like the previous user said. — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 21:05, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

The point is that because of that map, it can be easily interpreted to be an "EU country" when, in fact, it's not even a country to begin with. Wishes of the people of Catalonia are irrelevant in this case, it's the current state of affairs that matters (which is Catalonia = Spain). The same applies to Basque Country. Mr KEBAB (talk) 21:16, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

It's a "nation" within another nation, the same as Scotland (which also has a green map). Spain and Catalonia are not the same thing, although the latest is (still) a constituent part of the former. The same can't apply to the Basque Country because it has a separate consensus and it has different agreements with the Spanish state. — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 21:43, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

We're not talking nations here. You misunderstood me. Mr KEBAB (talk) 21:57, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

And could we actually stop pretending that there's a consensus to use the zoomed-out map? There clearly isn't! Mr KEBAB (talk) 15:13, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

The map is fine as is. It shows that Catalunya is currently a part of Spain. It also shows where the heck Catalunya is in Europe. This really seems like a non-issue. It's been agreed upon, if you disagree then you're free to go about the requisite process to change that. Until such a time I will report vandalism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alcibiades979 (talk • contribs) 22:51, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

@Alcibiades979: Wasting space on two maps is an issue. Can you tell me what's actually been 'agreed upon'? I see no real consensus in this discussion. Mr KEBAB (talk) 13:49, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
@Alcibiades979: I'm still waiting for your response. Avoiding responding for almost 3 months and baseless threats to report me for alleged vandalism will get you nowhere. Mr KEBAB (talk) 10:12, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Mr KEBAB I think these users are emotionally involved and pretend to make a fuzz about a special situation in Catalonia (like if it were a special snowflake or something like that... Catalunya, nou estat d'Europa). They tried to pull the same for the Valencian Community, if I can recall, though. From a political-geographic standpoint the territory is roughly the same than the rest of autonomous communities of Spain and of course a region of a sovereign state. Surely the first map offers a different alternative (arbitrary) scope, but so we can say the same about nearly every region of a sovereign state (you can count the exceptions to the country as primary focus with the fingers of a hand). Nonetheless, I think a multiple map option (one on screen, the rest collapsed) was habilitated in en:wiki. Dit it?--Asqueladd (talk) 10:35, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

You're wrong, it is a nationality of Spain (constituted as an "autonomous entity") that wants to be recognised as a nation and wants to decide its own future. The current Catalan government (lead by "Together for Yes") and a majority of the citizens of Catalonia support these views.

We're not hiding the green map, since most users (above) have accepted to use it and shows the fact that the Catalan people are yearning for changes. — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 06:06, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

@Asqueladd: Yeah, but people voting on Talk:Valencian Community were enough of critical thinkers not to let that happen.

@JaumeR: The fact is that Catalonia is not an independent country. What the Catalans want and whether the Catalan government supports that is irrelevant to the fact that right now it's nothing more than a part of Spain, what should be reflected in the way its represented on the infobox map - the same as the rest of Spain.

5 users out of 8 (if I'm counting correctly) is not 'most'. Mr KEBAB (talk) 09:53, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Critical thinkers? They were not honest and they did "canvassing"... Are you real?

The green map doesn't say it is not in Spain nor independent, can't you see Spain has a different colour than the rest of Europe? — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 10:39, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

By the rest of Spain, do you mean the Basque Country? The Basque Country is a good example to follow— Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 10:40, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

One of them did canvassing - a policy with which, by the way, I strongly disagree. It's (Redacted) probably to a high degree ineffective (people just do that covertly). Everyone should be allowed to invite other users to vote in whatever manner they choose.

(Redacted) Mr KEBAB (talk) 11:17, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

No, I meant a map like Community of Madrid has. Mr KEBAB (talk) 11:17, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Again. Catalonia does not govern itself significantly different than the rest of autonomous communities. The entry may need to adress that with the map: be consistent in relation to a limited set of articles, the autonomous communities of Spain, whose main criteria in regards of this issue also happens to be consistent to a larger set of files (most of subdivisions of sovereign states). When the so called Procès leads Catalonia to de facto become Transnistria (de facto totally breaking up with the sovereign state) or Puerto Rico (reaching a consensus with the sovereign state to be a special snowflake) or when it gets recognition as independent state we may need to adress that issue of putting the thing on worldwide perspective (why precisely the EU if the EU is a club of sovereign states?) but it is not the case, so far. Maps do not get well with bruised feelings but with de facto changes of the control of the territory. Vilipendiated or not the the ominous grip of the Spanish State is still alive and well in the land of butifarra. Best regards.--Asqueladd (talk) 11:46, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

@@Mr KEBAB: First off, why haven't I replied? If you click on my name you'll see that I was on a sabbatical, not literally of course, just wasn't editing wiki. Next, why are there two maps? Because the first suggests a relationship between Catalunya, and Spain that is equivalent to that between Scotland, and the UK. The second suggests a relationship between Catalunya, and Spain that is equivalent to that between... well Castilla y León and Spain. This is already known. So there's no consensus between the two opposing factions as to which map best represents Catalunya's relationship with Spain, and as such, the two maps are the closest thing we can get to a compromise. I agree though, two maps do look stupid, you should be the bigger man, and agree to go with the first ^_^. (Alcibiades979 (talk) 13:24, 16 December 2016 (UTC))

I agree that it is not necessary to have two maps in the same infobox that in the end show the same thing: the location of Catalonia in Spain and Europe in the first map and the location of Catalonia only in Spain in the second. As the author of the first map, I propose to make an extension in the first map of the area in which Catalonia is located to make it easier to locate it. I put, for example, the map of Flanders or Scotland. What do you think? --Martí8888 (talk) 11:01, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

@@Martí8888: Apoyo tu idea. Creo que puede ser un punto medio de entendimiento, aunque no entiendo por qué se intenta buscar conflicto en algo tan simple: Cataluña es una Comunidad Autónoma de España. El día que se independice, si es que llega ese momento algún día, ya se modificará el artículo, pero mientras tanto debemos respetar la soberanía de los países. Un saludo. --Cd tenerife (talk) 23:16, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

Would you please, talk, use English here? Thank you.--Karljoos (talk) 23:26, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

@@Martí8888: This is Alcibiades979, momentarily forgot my password, haha. I would be fine with this, the thing is it would require permission from those who are for the Spanish map, as well. It's kind of funny the Catalunya English wiki page is a weird sort of hybrid between the Catalan page, and the Castilian page, even down to the maps. 200.118.174.199 (talk) 16:08, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

It would require making some sense, haha. Actually I don't see a reason other than the special snowflake syndrome and bruised feelings (unencyclopaedic purposes) to put that map.--Asqueladd (talk) 18:35, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Well if you don't understand, there's plenty of resources to learn such as: http://cat.elpais.com/cat/2017/01/22/catalunya/1485124749_040802.html sin embargo, sí Catalunya no es especial, porque ahora El Pais Vasco también quiere un referéndum, jajajajaja. Ara és l'hora 181.143.50.179 (talk) 00:48, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

@@Martí8888: I'm agree with you Martí, it's a good and useful idea. If you can make an Scottish style map, that means, Europe without the EU green, showing, like the current, the location of Catalonia in Europe and a square focusing Spain which included the borders of the other autonomous communities, it will be perfect. Better if you modify the current map instead of create another new. Thank you very much, greetings! --Jacobí (talk) 18:56, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

The map for Catalonia should be the same map as the maps shown for any other administrative subdivision of Spain. I am very tired of Spaniard Catalonians and non-Catalonian Spaniards fighting their political wars on Wikipedia. I say we go with what Catalonia is legally within Spain, the European Union, and to the international institutions.Karljoos (talk) 16:16, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

@@Karljoos: I do not see why Catalonia has to have the same map as that of other autonomous communities. The maps of Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland also show each country in the UK and in Europe. Catalonia is a historical nationality, as it defends its autonomy status, and I really do not know why it could not have a map showing its territory in Spain and in Europe. I don't want it to appear that Catalonia is not currently part of Spain, the European Union or international institutions, and for this reason and according to the majority of users who have written on this discussion page, I will update the file showing Catalonia in Europe and Spain, with the borders of other autonomous communities and without the green of the European Union. --Martí8888 (talk) 17:01, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

@@Martí8888: As far as I know the legal status of Catalonia within Spain is not as it is for Scotland in the UK. And I do not see a majority of people agreeing on it, Marti888. I think there are far too many people defending their political agendas here. Do not change it without having a proper consensus. Thank you.--Karljoos (talk) 16:00, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

I agree with Marti8888's proposal Lliure albir (talk) 16:57, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Infobox

I request to improve the infobox and use the same type than Quebec or Scotland. — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 01:58, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

This autonomous community is not Scotland or Quebec, is one more region of Spain. The rest of communities have the same type of map. Please, you stop the vandalism. Satesclop 04:15, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Agree with Satesclop.--Karljoos (talk) 14:32, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

I would like to notify Satesclop has exercised canvassing — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 06:41, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Agree with Satesclop. Mr KEBAB (talk) 09:55, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Agree with Jaume. Lliure albir (talk) 16:58, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Agree with Jaume. By the way, Jaume, I used your Metro stop the other day, Jaume I. I sure am glad though that there are a legion of Americans who are willing to share with us what the political situation is like in our home country. Where would the world be without Americans dictating terms, and instructing us uncivilized folk. 79.158.167.31 (talk) 19:04, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

I think the Statute of Autonomy date should be Agoust 2010, because then it was published in its final version. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.96.151.103 (talk) 09:29, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Respeto al Reino de España

Wikipedia surgió como una enciclopedia libre que tenía como único objetivo ofrecer información a los usuarios de forma gratuita. No podemos consentir que esta página, la de una Comunidad Autónoma de España, se convierta en un campo de batalla político en el que gestos como poner en primer plano un mapa de Cataluña EQUIPARÁNDOLA A OTRAS NACIONES DE EUROPA o como eliminar referencias al país al que pertenece (España). Dejemos de crear polémica y controversia con estos temas y editemos de forma más responsable. --Cd tenerife (talk) 15:43, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

This article is trying to be objective in this matter. Right now it is showing there is a big issue in Spanish and Catalan politics and we need to reflect it. — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 06:24, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

No hay que confundir un proceso que quieren llevar a cabo ciertos partidos políticos independentistas en Cataluña con la REALIDAD OBJETIVA. Cataluña pertenece a España, nadie ha proclamado la independencia y ningún país del mundo lo reconoce como tal, pero viendo la línea que se está siguiendo, lo próximo será poner la estelada para "reflejar la realidad" que se quiere inventar. --Cd tenerife (talk) 23:10, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

Independence

So currently Junts pel Si controls the Generalitat, and they are pro-independence, and are beginning the creation of Catalunya as an independent entity. Would anyone object if I were to begin writing a section on Catalunya's road to independence? Regardless of your opinion on it, or on the constitution of Spain, that this is happening is indisputable. (2607:F470:6:5002:913C:E430:DB87:4DA6 (talk) 16:27, 1 September 2016 (UTC))

You can proceed to add more information. — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 06:20, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

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Introduction too long

I would suggest reducing the length of the introduction part of the article. Its length is about double the average introductive part of other regions or countries. --88.13.59.194 (talk) 22:02, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

I've just removed an unsourced paragraph from the WP:Lead that was added since the above comment was made, and I added a tag stating that the lead is too long. Basically, it is very wordy, and much of it covers details that should be left to other articles in Wikipedia. WP:BRD. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 18:01, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

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etymology

Right now, the Etymology and pronunciation section, after a paragraph describing the early attestations of the term, we have a paragraph giving the Gothia Launia/Gothland and Goth-Alania theories. Then, there's a line that says "Other less plausible or recent theories suggest:" with a bullet points giving some more ideas.

This seems very awkward. How do we decide which theories belong before the "less plausible or recent theories" section and which go inside it? If some of the the latter are really not very plausible, perhaps they don't merit inclusion in the encyclopedia at all (it seems strange to list ideas with the proviso that they are less reliable without giving some indication of their significance as misconceptions). Maybe we should just have bullet points for all the proposed etymologies, roughly in order of when they are first attested as being put forward. – Greg Pandatshang (talk) 22:29, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Update the political situation of the Catalonia page to match Kosovo?

Hi Wiki people,

With the regional government claiming independence while the central government refusing to recognise the vote, there seems to be a lot of similarities between the current situation to that of Kosovo. Irrespective of the opinion about the rights or wrongs/ legalities or illegalities, I believe the pages should be updated to reflect accordingly.