Jump to content

Talk:List of compositions by Franz Liszt: Difference between revisions

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Content deleted Content added
Anapazapa (talk | contribs)
Anapazapa (talk | contribs)
Line 85: Line 85:
== On correspondence between Transcendental etudes and the early series of 12 Exercises (S. 136 & S. 137) ==
== On correspondence between Transcendental etudes and the early series of 12 Exercises (S. 136 & S. 137) ==


I took the liberty to delete most of the references that links individual pieces of the 12 early etudes and their respective Transcendental Etudes. The previous editor of that bit made an assumption that these pieces correspond by their respecive numbers. Looking at the pieces individually the correspondence is obvious from pieces nos. 1 to 5, 10 and 12, then exercise no. 7 seems akin to Transcendental no. 11, and that's where first impressions end, and from here on it is obvious that the connections between the pieces are not simple, and one shouldn't link them automatically. Since I believe in Wikipedia's primal principles, in that editors are not supposed to publish original research or, even worse, easy going assumptions, own interpretations of facts, subjective musical observations, even if they seem obvious, I left the space blank. With a question marks for place holder, because not sure how tables work. Please confer sources before completing the table again.
I took the liberty to delete most of the references that links individual pieces of the 12 early etudes and their respective Transcendental Etudes. The previous editor of that bit made an assumption that these pieces correspond by their respecive numbers. Looking at the pieces individually the correspondence is obvious from pieces nos. 1 to 5, 10 and 12, then exercise no. 7 seems akin to Transcendental no. 11, and that's where first impressions end, and from here on it is obvious that the connections between the pieces are not simple, and one shouldn't link them automatically. Since I believe in Wikipedia's primal principles, in that editors are not supposed to publish original research or, even worse, easy going assumptions, own interpretations of facts, subjective musical observations, even if they seem obvious, I left the space blank. With a question marks for place holder, because not sure how tables work. Please confer sources before completing the table again.[[User:Anapazapa|Anapazapa]] ([[User talk:Anapazapa|talk]]) 17:48, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

Revision as of 17:48, 2 December 2017

WikiProject iconClassical music: Compositions
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Classical music, which aims to improve, expand, copy edit, and maintain all articles related to classical music, that are not covered by other classical music related projects. Please read the guidelines for writing and maintaining articles. To participate, you can edit this article or visit the project page for more details.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by Compositions task force.
WikiProject iconLists List‑class Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Lists, an attempt to structure and organize all list pages on Wikipedia. If you wish to help, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
ListThis article has been rated as List-class on the project's quality scale.
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Deletion?

Why is this article up for deletion, yet no discussion has been made. Isn't it common sense to talk first on wikipedia? All other major composers as well as most minor or completely unimportant composers (to use the term loosely) have articles listing their work. I don't see any problem with this article that requires anything more than minor improvements. I am removing this notice and hope to discuss this like reasonable editors. Thank you, AlexanderLevian 01:52, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The article was kept, but in the future please do not remove the Afd tags until the discussion is closed. Thanks!.--JForget 01:28, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I understand and apologize. I didn’t realize that a discussion had been started in a separate page. I didn’t know and it won’t happen again. Thank you, AlexanderLevian 17:44, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

References

With IMSLP down, a better source is needed (a better source was needed anyway than a sourceless list compiled elsewhere even when it was up.) Schissel | Sound the Note! 12:55, 16 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I compiled the original list over at imslp. I used Liszt.dk project page as first reference. As for the various organ works not listed, I used a list over at Amazon on Liszt complete organ works, performed by Johannes Bleicher. On the various co-arranger of the symphonic poems (S.511a-S.512), I used the sleeve notes from Hyperion's Vol 56 of Liszt's Piano Music and Vol 38, and some original letters over at Gutenbergs. Liszt.dk seems to have some errors; Ungarischer Sturmmarsch was errorneously listed to be both S.524i (i.e. S.232) and S.524ii when infact S.524 is a transcription of S.119 which is an orchestration of S.232. Festpolonais isn't S.634, but S.619a. --Funper (talk) 13:50, 16 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Recent changes

I think it is better not to include individual pieces in the articles. If one plans to make a whole listing of all individual pieces, like the 19 hungarian rhapsodies, the 3 series of 12 etudes, and the 12 christmas pieces, the purpose of this list will be lost since it will be impossible to take in the whole picture. The purpose of this list is not to show all of Liszt's overwhelming oevre, but to make it possible to easily browse through it. These kind of lists would be more appropriate to include in articles related to them (like the list of all 12 transcendental etudes that is available in the main article). I suggest that it should be as it was before. We should strive to make it remain a browseable list. --Funper (talk) 19:37, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I understand your concern, but somewhat disagree. It seems silly to me to create an entire article to list 2 movements of a piece that I otherwise know nothing about. By contrast, have you seen the tremendous detail on the Schubert page, particularly regarding the piano solo works? But a better example is the break-out of the song cycles. Consider how difficult it would be to locate the song "Halt" (D795 no3) if you didn't know to which collection it belonged. Listing out the 19 Hungariam Rhapsodies would have little value since they are not individually named. But a work like "St. Francis of Paula walking on the waves" is rarely referenced as "Legend No 2". Unless you are a Liszt expert, I think it would be hard to find. At least that was my experience when I came searching these pages for this work and couldn't find it. I had to go to Google to figure out where it fit into Liszt's amazingly large output. Then I thought that info may be useful to others. So I added it to the page. Personally, I would prefer to have one monster article of the works, instead of two, even though it would be slower to load over my dial-up connnection. But I'm not a wiki expert either, so I beg your patience. Is there a page length limitation or something? Les Andersen (talk) 22:58, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oki I am all for if the etude-titles are removed (since you agree; "little value since they are not individually named". Un Sospiro wasn't even a title of Liszt's). --Funper (talk) 01:40, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

dating S.306

quick Google books search suggests "by 1848" for the first version of the song S. 306, from two different (maybe not independent) books, one of them Searle's - is there enough evidence for 1847 even with that question mark? Schissel | Sound the Note! 13:36, 10 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

R numbers?

Anyone know about these? I can't find any info on them, but I noticed on a new release that a second number is listed, and Naxos seems to have added them to other pages too (though it's possible it's been there for a while and I simply haven't payed attention). Various Google searches indicate a couple of books that use the number, and a bunch of sites seem to 'suddenly' have them, but I cannot find ANY reference to what the catalog actually is. Though this is unrelated to the Serle catalog, there's no "general" Liszt works page so I'm asking here. If anyone has any incites, they'd be appreciated (and certainly mention of it should be welcome in the article, to keep this on WP topic). ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 06:47, 1 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The R numbers seem to be outdated, I don't think there are any newer revisions since the 1930s when Raabe compiled it. --Funper (talk) 01:30, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, so it's an older catalog, then. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 02:08, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
See Catalogues of classical compositions.
Peter Raabe created the structure that Searle later employed. Maybe he copied it from the BWV. For my money, the structure is not worth a sausage. I much prefer a single chronological sequence, but we have what we have. Had Raabe not been a Nazi, maybe the R numbers would have been retained, but that was not possible in the post-war world, so Searle got the nod. Lucky his name wasn't Robinson or Ramsbottom. -- ♬ Jack of Oz[your turn] 01:11, 9 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

New Title??

This article seems to be begging for a humorous title. How about 'Liszt of compositions'? It would be funny!

J.Gowers (talk) 01:53, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe on Uncyclopedia... ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 02:01, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Merging with another article

This article has topics similar to List of compositions by Franz Liszt (S.351 – S.999) and should be merged into one article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Inyrface (talkcontribs) 13:05, 24 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. There may be this distinction, but that is not a valid reason to seperate the catalogue into two articles. --2.245.90.48 (talk) 02:52, 17 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Merged. ---Funper (talk) 16:37, 23 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Space after dot

Is it correct that there's no space after S.? --77.0.249.20 (talk) 19:58, 8 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a matter of correctness, but of style. Some people prefer S.258, others like S. 258. Some like J.S. Bach, others like J. S. Bach. Some chop and change depending on the context. To my eye, lists like this one look better without spaces, but in some other places I prefer the spaces to be there.
What's always important is not to mix styles in the same article. As the title does not use spaces after the dots, it would be inappropriate to use them in the text. -- ♬ Jack of Oz[your turn] 01:01, 9 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Structural confusion

Searle's catalogue is divided firstly into what he calls "Original works" (S.1–S.350) and "Arrangements, transcriptions, etc" (S.351 onwards). It would be very tempting for someone new to Liszt to believe that anything with an S number lower than 351 was an original concept by Liszt that did not draw on the works of any other composers. But that's hardly the case.

No less than 47 of the works in the first group are based on works by other composers, and these include Berlioz (S.120), Beethoven (S.122), Chopin (S.127), Paganini (S.140, 141), Rossini (S.149, 150), Bach (S.179, 180), Handel (S.181). Mendelssohn (S.257), Meyerbeer (S.259), and many others.

Full details are at Franz Liszt's treatments of the works of other composers#Index of S. numbers.

The Searle catalogue has been confusing me ever since I encountered it 45 years ago. For example:

  • How can a work titled Études d'execution transcendante d'après Paganini, S.141, which is essentially a transcription of 6 pieces by Paganini, be classified as an "original work", when the extra-Liszt source of the material is even included in the title?
  • Why is Fantasia on (themes from) 'The Ruins of Athens', S.122, considered an "original work", when Capriccio alla turca sur des motifs de Beethoven (Ruines d'Athènes), S.388 is merely an "arrangement or transcription"? They both draw on the same Beethoven material, and they both rework it to some degree. -- ♬ Jack of Oz[your turn] 01:02, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well unfortunately Serle is dead, so we can't ask him. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 03:55, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Circular reference S.110

The first Mephisto Waltz originates in the second of the Two pieces after Lenau's Faust S.110. In this article, S.110 links to the general Mephisto Waltzes article, where the section on the First Mephisto Waltz, discussing its origin, has a link back to this page. The S.110 link should go to a separate article on the original Two pieces after Lenau's Faust, or be removed, otherwise the links make us go around in circles. Zwart (talk) 18:55, 16 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Table of contents in new list

I am not knowledgeable enough to implement a TOC within the new layout of the list. I have read some section about tables and headers but my wikicoding skills are far too weak and I do not know where to begin. Is it do-able? Are there any relevant help pages to read? --Funper (talk) 01:15, 26 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I have made a workaround, however I'm not sure if this is the "right" way to add a TOC when your article is just a huge table. --Funper (talk) 05:15, 26 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Composer names

I am planning to add composer names as headers in the work table, however I will not add those links to the TOC since I believe it will become unnavigable. --Funper (talk) 02:15, 28 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

On correspondence between Transcendental etudes and the early series of 12 Exercises (S. 136 & S. 137)

I took the liberty to delete most of the references that links individual pieces of the 12 early etudes and their respective Transcendental Etudes. The previous editor of that bit made an assumption that these pieces correspond by their respecive numbers. Looking at the pieces individually the correspondence is obvious from pieces nos. 1 to 5, 10 and 12, then exercise no. 7 seems akin to Transcendental no. 11, and that's where first impressions end, and from here on it is obvious that the connections between the pieces are not simple, and one shouldn't link them automatically. Since I believe in Wikipedia's primal principles, in that editors are not supposed to publish original research or, even worse, easy going assumptions, own interpretations of facts, subjective musical observations, even if they seem obvious, I left the space blank. With a question marks for place holder, because not sure how tables work. Please confer sources before completing the table again.Anapazapa (talk) 17:48, 2 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]