Talk:No. 164 Squadron RAF

Info about the Books and Articles I've included in the article

Hi, apologies for the language of these being spanish, but I believe that they satisfy the criteria for "reliable sources" required by Wikipedia Verifiability policy and related guidelines.
I'm including below additional information about these books and newspaper articles (links) that is not allowed by the templates used (at least, in the version I've used!):

Books

• "Alas de Trueno" 2º Edition

Author: Claudio Meunier

Ilustrations: Carlos A. Garcia

Edited: 2005

Publisher: not available

Foreword by Pierre Clostermann

More info (including summary and cover) at http://www.firmesvolamos.com.ar/publicaciones/alas2.php (in spanish)

• "Nacidos con Honor"

Autor: Claudio Meunier

Edited: 2007

Publisher: Grupo Abierto, Buenos Aires

More info (including summary and cover) at http://www.firmesvolamos.com.ar/publicaciones/nacidos.php (in spanish)

The author's website (home: http://www.firmesvolamos.com.ar/home/index.php in spanish) has a wealth of information, including pictures and profiles of several ariplanes flown by argentinian volunteer pilots (see some at: http://www.firmesvolamos.com.ar/galerias/perfiles.php)

Links

Just a couple of (online) articles related to the surviving Argentinian RAF/RCAF volunteers in the Argentine newspaper "Clarín" (both retrieved on 04-09-2008):

• Los argentinos que pelearon en la Segunda Guerra, Clarin, 07.08.2005 Interview to 4 surviving anglo-argentinian volunteers.
• Condecoran a aviadores argentinos que pelearon en la II Guerra para Gran Bretaña, Clarin, 08.04.2005 Report about the ceremony at St. Clement Danes church, remembering the 3000 argentines (including 600 pilots) that fought in WW2 on the allied side.

Regards, DPdH (talk) 01:53, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Not all the pilots were from Argentina

Trafford, from New Zealand_"http://aircrewremembered.com/trafford-george.html"

Bill Baggs (1922-2012), from Canada ("http://www.thememoryproject.com/stories/654:bill-mitchell-baggs/"): The 164 squadron was unique in that it was called the Argentine-British squadron. And all squadrons had cities or counties or countries that supported them and from those areas they'd send gifts and supplies and that sort of thing [...] it turned out that I was the only Canadian with the squadron for a year [...] the squadron was composed of just about every allied nationality. The nucleus would be fellows from the United Kingdom. We had Belgian, Frenchmen, Poles, South African, Rhodesians, myself a Canadian, an American. So it was a unique squadron and we all got along pretty well together. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 12:19, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

According to the Argentine British Community Council ("http://www.abcc.org.ar/memorial"), some 150 pilots and aircrew members from Argentine lost their lives in action or accidents in 1939-1945 in the ranks of the RAF, RCAF, FAA (Fleet Air Arm) & WAAF (female pilots). Only one was from No.164 Squadron: David B. Bridger, killed in flying accident in 1942. The 164 was not an Argie squadron, but a squadron under the patronage of the British community from Argentina (funds raising campaign Wings for Winston Foundation of Buenos Aires). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:19, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Excerpt from the book Normandy:the Real Story, by Shelagh and Dennis Whitaker: Bill [Baggs] was the only Canadian [sic] in 84 Group, 164 Squadron, RAF,_"a regular united nations of pilots" from eleven countries that flew in support of the Canadian Army.

It was not composed of Argentine volunteers

As I have pointed out, it was a "donation squadron" supported by the huge and affluent British community in Argentine. The No.164 lost some pilots in action, including at least 3 squadron leaders: Peter Leonard Bateman-Jones (UK) and Desmond McKeown (UK, Irish?)and Ian E. Waddy (New Zealand) , plus John M. Bryan (Wing Commander, he led 164 Squadron in action)(UK) and one who ended up PoW (Russell)(UK). None of those pilots killed in action were from Argentina. When the unit was activated in mid-1942, it seems there were only 2 Argentine pilots: David B. Bridger (killed in flying accident) and Ronald Sheward (later transferred to other squadron). A typical fighter-bomber squadron was made up of over 20 pilots. The 164 Squadron was a run-of-the-mill RAF squadron: pilots from the UK, the Commonwealth and occupied Europe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.33.192.150 (talk) 11:30, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Australian losses in No.164 Squadron: Bruce A. Schaefer, Ernest A. Roberts, Norman L. Merrett, and Douglas W. McCulloch.

I DO REPEAT (SIGH): NO.164 RAF SQUADRON WAS NOT COMPOSED OF ARGENTINE VOLUNTEERS. IT WAS NOT AN ANGLO-ARGENTINE SQUADRON. IT WAS A RAF DONATION SQUADRON NAMED AFTER ITS DONATION COUNTRY: ARGENTINA. MOST OF ITS PILOTS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH ARGENTINA.PUT AN END ONCE AND FOR ALL TO THAT URBAN LEGEND OF THE ARGENTINE SQUADRON. THERE WERE HUNDREDS OF ANGLO-ARGENTINES IN THE RAF, OF COURSE, BUT BY NO MEANS AN ARGENTINE SQUADRON. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.139.118.211 (talk) 13:07, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Of course any of them was argentine, look this airplanes http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL868/13057851/23235444/388324911.jpg , https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-MWVDE6hqIks/UhleZFE6GwI/AAAAAAAAIWI/PI_89t446nA/s400/75_build.jpg , https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-v9ljELh71Y4/Uhle1vJ04mI/AAAAAAAAIWY/djpF9M-uUuU/s1600/220px-Francis_Sampson.jpg , https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-uHN423RCiN8/Uhlnqz0HcFI/AAAAAAAAIYQ/BeCMTBAq988/s1600/0f190cdfb9c7dd62040f8f348f5d2045o.jpg , https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-lcjsdy-2rbw/UhlWb_-b9sI/AAAAAAAAIUc/OzttRIJQYOo/s1600/1209323875f.jpg, or de infamous EL ROMPECULOS http://imagecache5d.allposters.com/watermarker/15-1552-EI7DD00Z.jpg.152.170.7.61 (talk) 03:23, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

Explain what has to do a picture of an anglo-argentine pilot in India and Burma (Arakan) with a squadron based in the UK and, after D-Day, in Western Europe. What I say is that No. 164 Squadron was not composed of Argentine pilots. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.38.69.212 (talk) 12:55, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

An Argentine fighter pilot that NEVER was in 164 Sq.: Michael Henry Le Bas ("Pancho"), from Rosario, squadrons 234, 610, 601, 241. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.47.97.15 (talk) 12:20, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

A 2nd Argentine donation squadron: No.263 Squadron"Fellowship of the Bellows-Argentine"

See Fellowship of the Bellows.

"http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/presentation-spitfires.html/2" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.33.192.150 (talk) 13:25, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

And a 3rd: No.692 Sq. "Fellowship of the Bellows". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.47.97.15 (talk) 10:37, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Brigade Piron's edit on 1 August 2017

If there were MANY Argentine pilots in No. 164 Squadron in 1942-1945, give us their names. Once again: of the some 20 pilots of this unit who were killed in action or in flying accident in 1942-1945, only one was Argentine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.47.97.15 (talk) 11:58, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

You are looking at this the wrong way. Argentina's population in the 1900s-1950s was over 30% foreign-born. It doesn't mean much if they were born in the UK or in Argentina, if they were naturalized Argentine citizens, resided in Argentina, and returned to Argentina after the war (most of them did), then they were, by all intents and purposes, Argentines, or technically Anglo-Argentines, which is why they named their squadron as such. If you take a look at any list of Argentina's independence heroes, Nobel-prize winners, musicians, writers, and so on during this period, you will find a lot of them were foreign-born.

I'm not looking the wrong-way. I'm sure that the British pilots in no.164 Squadron were British, not Argentine-British. See and Google for yourself: Desmond Papworth McKeown, Humphrey a'Beckett RusselL, James Brian Teather, John Michael Bryan , Ronald A.E. White, George Moir Fisher, George D. Fowell, Arthur E. Napier... Only 4 Argentine pilots flew with 164 squadron: David B. Bridger, Ronnie Sheward, Greene and Brownrigg. For non-British and non-Argentine personnel, Google: Billy Baggs, Stanislaw Blok, Witold Nowoczin, Laurence Victor Kirsch, Ian Dousland Waddy, Roy De Merle, Geoffrey Raymond Trafford, etc. To begin with, the first and the last fatalities with 164 Squadron were from Australia: Bruce Astor Schaefer in 1942 and Douglas William McCulloch in 1945. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.99.89.51 (talk) 12:50, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Comparison: Argentine and non-Argentine losses of No. 164 Squadron in 1942-1945

Including killed in action, killed in flying accident and prisoners of war.

From Argentine: 1.David B. Bridger.

Non-Argentine: 1.Peter L. Bateman-Jones (BRITISH), 2.Desmond P. Mc Keown (promoted to the rank of RAF Flying Officer on 1st November 1934, BRITISH nationality), 3.John M. Bryan (BRITISH, born in South Norwood, South London, in 1922; he was Wing Commander and led no. 164 squadron when he was shot down), 4.Ian D. Waddy (NEW ZEALANDER, prisoner of war), 5.Humphrey A.B. Russell (BRITISH, prisoner of war), 6.George R. Trafford (Gisborne, Auckland, NEW ZEALANDER), 7.James B. Teather (BRITISH, born in Sheffield in 1922), 8.Francis H. Dennison (Grand Pre, Nova Scotia, CANADIAN), 9.Ian A. Young (CANADIAN, prisoner of war), 10.Bruce A. Schaefer (AUSTRALIAN), 11.Alfred E. Roberts (AUSTRALIAN)(his address before going to the war: 203 Page Street, Middle Park, Victoria, Australia), 12.Douglas W. McCulloch (AUSTRALIAN), 13.Norman L. Merrett (AUSTRALIAN), 14.George M. Fisher (BRITISH, from Scotland), 15. George D. Fowell (BRITISH), 16.Arthur E. Napier (BRITISH), 17.Ronald A.E. White (BRITISH, from Tilbury, Essex, 1923) and 18.Ian A.S. Moore (BRITISH). To be confirmed: Hammond-Hunt, Jones, Wilson and Lawston (Note: these 4 pilots seem to have had forced landings in April 1945 in Germany, either after being hit by enemy flak or due to an engine failure; Hammond-Hunt in Kluis and the balance near Neumunster, but all of them seem to have survived_"https://home.kpn.nl/been0319/stories6.html")).— Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.47.97.15 (talk) 12:16, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

A pilot from No. 164 Squadron who survived to the war but died in a plane crash in Canada in 1946: Lawrence Victor Kirsch, from Yorkton, Saskatchewan, Canada. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.47.97.15 (talk) 12:16, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

FLying Officer W.T. Lawton was hit on 27 April 1945 and baled out, badly burnt. Prisoner of war for a few days. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.38.133.156 (talk) 12:01, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

RAF single-engine British-Argentine fighter and fighter-bomber pilots killed in WW2 (KIA and KIFA).

1.Bridger (164 Sq. Argentine-British ), 2. Ch. G. Deck (222 Sq.), 3. J.F. Deck, (56 Sq.), 4. Gillitt (41 Sq.), 5.Holland (183 Sq.), 6. Laing-Meason (43 Sq.), 7. Lett (124 Sq. Baroda), 8. MacDonald (93 Sq.), 9. MacKinnon (73 Sq.), 10. McComas (26 Sq.), 11. Pring (604, 89, 125 and 176 squadrons) (this ace was in fact a British resident in Argentina, born in Ealing, London, killed as a Beaufigher twin-engine night figher pilot), 12. Saunders (186 Sq.), and 13. Smith (129 sq. Mysore). Total: 13. From 164 squadron: 1. Percentage: 7.69%.

Give us ONCE AND FOR ALL the names of all the Argentine volunteers in 164 Squadron

Once again: Sheward, Bridger, Greene and Brownrigg. End of the list. Rather a short list to make up a fighter-bomber squadron. I don't mean the list of all the Argentines in the RAF (some hundreds), but the list of Argentines in 164 Squadron. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.99.89.51 (talk) 12:41, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Charles Demoulin, although basically a pilot of 609 Squadron, flew with 164 Squadron in the 2nd half of 1944. Argentine? No, Belgian. His autobiography: Les Oiseaux de Feu (The Firebirds). It seems that Arthur G. Todd "Toddy", C.L. Mouzon, Peter G. West (died in the USA in 1987), and Leslie "Les" Plows weren't Argentine too, as usual. How many non-Argentine pilots related to 164 Squadron had I already found out and checked? Over 30? Some 40 indeed? Whenever I come across a new name from 164 Squadron, I pay a visit to the list of Argentine volunteers in the RAF ("http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories/argentina-ww2.html"), and the result is always the same: non-Argentine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.99.89.51 (talk) 15:50, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

A new one: Alexander H. Simpson. Argentine? Surprise, surprise: Canadian. Born in Montreal in 1920, passed away in Vancouver in 2002. Denizen of White Rock, British Columbia. Score: Canada 6 (Beake, Kirsch, Baggs, Dennison, Young, and Simpson)- Argentine 4 (Sheward, Bridger, Brownrigg, and Greene). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.99.89.51 (talk) 16:16, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

More: Hallas, King, Tanner, and Dennehey [Note, 2 October 2018: It's John Reginald Daniel Dennehey, decorated with the Distinguished Flying Cross, one of the 8 pilots of Squadron 164 that on 2 September 1943 took part in the raid on the Hansweert Canal in the Low Countries. Later on Squadron Leader of No. 137 Squadron. Non-Argentine]

And William Cook (formerly of 603 Squadron City of Edinburgh), who together with Witold Nowoczin damaged a Junker 88 for 164 Squadron.

More: Suttie, with 164 Sq. in 1945. Nationality unknown, but non-Argentine with all certainty. With some doubts: Robert Gouby, French, perhaps with 164 Sq. from May to July 1942. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.99.89.51 (talk) 15:40, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

More: Hackett, 1945. Nationality unknown but non-Argentine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.99.89.51 (talk) 15:46, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

More: Elston and Rawley in 1945. Nationality unknown but non-Argentine (on the list of 766 Argentine volunteers in the RAF there's a John Walter de Foix Rawle, who served with 138 Special Operation Squadron, but it's a different individual) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.99.89.51 (talk) 15:47, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

Serving briefly with No. 164 Sq. in July 1942: James O'Meara, a British fighter ace. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.5.145.200 (talk) 11:19, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

Serving briefly with 164 Squadron in the summer of 1942 in Scotland: Jerzy J. Solak, Polish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.38.133.156 (talk) 12:14, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

Comparison: 609 Squadron vs. 164 Squadron

The 609 Squadron "West Riding" was not a Belgian unit. 55 Belgian pilots served with 609 Squadron. 15 were killed with 609 Squadron. Percentage of killed: 27.72%

Note: 609 Sqn. was a 'half-Belgian' unit, because one of its two Flights was unofficially Belgian. A fighter squadron is made up of two Flights.

According to some contemporary Argentine phantasists, 164 Squadron "Argentine British" was composed of Argentine volunteers. 4 Argentines -and no more- served with 164 Squadron. One was killed. Percentage: 25%. Incidentally, at least 2 Belgians from 609 Squadron served for a while with 164 Squadron (remy Van Lierde and Charles Demoulin, as squadron leader the former and as flight leader the latter).

A 3rd Belgian in 164 Sq.: Georges Nossin, 1945.

Maybe a 4th one: Isaïe Léopold Charles Mouzon, 1945.

My gratitude to Pablo Calcaterra ("Modelling Madness") and his magnificent web on the 164 Squadron. My "research" is based on his research (with some help from the Imperial War Museum's RAF camera gun footages). There were hundreds of Argentine volunteers in the RAF in WW2, but the story of the "Argentine squadron" is false. Wikipedia is expected to be reliable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.99.89.51 (talk) 16:20, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

On 27 December 2017 passed away Sydney Charles Pigden, born in Sydenham, South London on 25 April 1922. Pilot of 164 Squadron in 1943-45. After the war one of his pupils at Turham Junior School (South London) was the footballer Ian Wright. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.17.217.143 (talk) 10:50, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

On 20 April 2018 passed away Léopold Isaïe Charles Mouzon, born in Namur (Belgium) in 1920. According to the Imperial War Museum's gun camera footages, he served with 164 squadron in 1945 (literally: Combat Film No. 13264. Flight Sergeant Mouzon of 164 Squadron on 24/4/1945 at 1105, flying Hawker Typhoon. Target:ground targets). Officially or quasi-officially the Belgian pilots who served with 164 squadron were Nossin, Demoulin and Van Lierde ("http://www.theairforcechapel.be/the-role-of-honour.html")(note: according to the Belgian official records, Léopold Mouzon was in 164 Sq. in 1940, what seems to be a clerical error. 164 Sq. was not to be activated until 1942. Mouzon's baptism of fire was in 1940 as Belgian pilot or airman. He escaped from Miranda de Ebro concentration camp in Spain in 1943 -military personnel escaping for German-occupied Western Europe via Francoist Spain was interned there-, and in 1944 he was in 541 RAF Sq. , a photo recce unit.).

Pilots of No. 164 Squadron, March 1945

P. Bateman-Jones, A. Hammond-Hunt, D. Pattison. M. Love, P.T. Eagar. C.L. Mouzon (Belgian), W.M. Baggs (Canadian), B.E. Hooper. H. Bletcher, K.F. Morse, J.R.K. Blok (most likely a misspelling of J.R.K. Black, or vice versa), J.P Weatherly, S.C. Piddan (most likely a misspelling of S.C. Pigden), A.R. Costello, G.M.O. Nossin (Belgian), C. H. Tanner, J.R.K. Black, S.C. Pigden, C.E. Rowland, N. Lowe (same as Love?), & W. Thomas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.5.145.200 (talk) 11:35, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

A query: Could A.R. Costello of 164 Sq. in 1945 be Alfred Reuben Costello, 33 Sq. in 1940 and 112 Shark Sq. in 1941-42? 2 Italian biplanes shot down in 1940, plus one shared. Or is he a different pilot with the same initials and surname? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.38.133.156 (talk) 11:00, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Modern canvass of 164 Squadron's Typhoons posed to strafe German positions in support of the 5th SAS Regiment (Belgian) in April 1945_"http://www.davidrowlands.co.uk/gallery/gal_detail.asp?varPaintCode=797" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.5.145.200 (talk) 10:47, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

Patorozu cartoon and 164 Squadron

So far as I know no plane of 164 Squadron displayed that popular Argentine cartoon on the fuselage. The oft-repeated picture of a Hurricane with the Parotozú is in fact a Hurricane of No. 60 Squadron RAF in Burma (Squadron Leader Richard Lindsell's plane). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.38.133.156 (talk) 11:46, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Too: Cedric Henman's Typhoon, 257 Sq. Burma, & 175 Sq.

No. 247 Squadron RAF China British

No problem in pointing out something obvious: the "China British" squadron was a donation squadron presented by the British residents in China. The title "China British" didn't refer to the nationality of the pilots. But if I try to explain that No. 164 Squadron RAF "Argentine British" was a donation squadron presented by the British residents in Argentina, it's a drama. Any attempt to explain it is edited out at short notice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.38.133.156 (talk) 10:13, 11 September 2018 (UTC)