Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mizrahi Hebrew

Mizrahi Hebrew

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Mizrahi Hebrew (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Unsourced OR / POVFORK of Modern Hebrew / Sephardi Hebrew. A word of explanation - Mizrahi is a (mainly) Israeli term for non-European (Askenazi) Jews. Outside of Israel, these were separate communities with separate secular languages (e.g. Judeo-Persian, Judeo-Yemeni Arabic, Judeo-Arabic languages, Judaeo-Spanish) and liturgical Hebrew variants (e.g. Yemenite Hebrew, Sephardi Hebrew). In Israel while Mizrahim are defined as a label - they do not have a separate dialect. Per this source - "Generally speaking, Modern Hebrew lacks dialects, though there are sociolects, ethnolects, relgiolects, and many other varieties of the language". Note that the Hebrew Wikipedia lacks an article on this subject (as it does not exist!), and that current cross wikis are either stubs or rather clear translations of our enwiki article. I will note that some sources do refer to a minor accent variation, common among many first and second generation Mizrahim, that has a more proper or stressed prounounciation of the guttural ח and ע (this is covered in Modern Hebrew#Pronunciation]).Icewhiz (talk) 20:03, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Language-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz (talk) 20:04, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz (talk) 20:04, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz (talk) 20:04, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

• Comment the article doesn’t claim there’s a dialect, just a distinctive pronunciation system. There are sources provided so I’m not really clear why it’s dscribed by the nominator as ‘unsourced.’
• Keep. (Or maybe merge with something??) While there may not be proper dialects in Modern Hebrew, this article refers to the pronunciation of Biblical Hebrew among Mizrachim. It seems to be in the same vein as Sephardi Hebrew and Italian Hebrew-- while these are not really dialects present among Modern Hebrew speakers, it is possible to have well-sourced articles about different groups' liturgical pronunciation systems. Gilded Snail (talk) 21:27, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

  @Gilded Snail:, see Sephardi Hebrew that much of this article is copied from. Note that some Mizrahim use a totally different systems, in particular Yemenite Hebrew - the division is not per Mizrahi/non-Mizrahi lines. The present article is factually inaccurate to the point of even perhaps WP:HOAX (in particuar the assertion that Sephardi Hebrew is disjoint).Icewhiz (talk) 22:17, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

• Keep. Clearly distinct and well-sourced. It is not exactly controversial that traditions of Hebrew that developed in the Iberian Peninsula (Sephardic) maintained major differences from traditions of Hebrew that developed in Egypt or Iraq or Yemen (Mizrahi). It's not just the more emphatic pronunciations of heth and ayin, but also often teth, sadhe and qoph and a distinction of ghimel from gimel. Just because these varieties may have become scarce among Mizrahim in Israel today, does not mean they are not historically distinct up until the mass-evacuations of Jews from Arab countries in 1948, and may still be distinct among the few Jews who remained in the other countries. That event was an attrition of culture as much as it was a humanitarian crisis; it is commonplace for people trying to adapt in a new society to lose traditions that previously made them distinct, especially when those traditions are stigmatized and devalued by the establishment and hinder newcomers' ability to succeed. - Gilgamesh (talk) 03:01, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

  Much of the assertions abpve are false - e.g. gimel is different only in Yemenite Hebrew - which is completely different (and actually closer to Ashkenazi is some respects) from Sephardi Hebrew (which in the 500+ years since 1492 - merged with Hebrew in North Africa). The distinction between Sephardi Hebrew (Iberian only in name) and most of the Hebrew varities spoken in what is termed in Israel as Mizrahi - is non-existent. Our article which states Sephardi was different - is unsourced OR.Icewhiz (talk) 04:42, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

  And lest I be accused of OR:

  1. "Sephardi Hebrew, that originally marked the speech of the mass immigrations from Arabic-speaking countries. Their transfer of consonant distinctions from Arabic made their speech ethnically distinctive. Equally important, their ..." "Sephardi+Hebrew"&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjOk4iqtbrgAhVRDuwKHcwvDkQQ6AEIKzAB#v=onepage&q="Sephardi%20Hebrew"&f=false
  2. "Certainly not a Yemenite Jew, whose accent was in many ways more similar to Ashkenazic dialects.59 In light of these many variations, it is likely that contemporary Jews defined Sephardic Hebrew by what it was not. In all its diverse intonations, this Hebrew pronunciation was unmistakably distinctive from all Ashkenazic dialects." "Sephardic+Hebrew"&oq="Sephardic+Hebrew"&gs_l=mobile-gws-serp.3...6383.12047.0.12709.10.10.0.0.0.0.160.1109.0j8.8.0....0...1c.1j4.64.mobile-gws-serp..2.7.982...41j30i10k1.0.rHF-27a0eC0

  There is a distinction between Western Sephardic and Eastern Sephardic - but most Mizrahi Jews spoke Sephardic (and modern Hebrew is a "dumbed down" Sephardic - based on Sephardic, but losing Het and Ayin - which makes correct Sephardic speakers stand out).Icewhiz (talk) 04:59, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

I said ghimel (soft fricative consonant) being different from gimel (hard plosive consonant), not hard gimel itself being different from other varieties' hard gimel, with the exception of Yemenite which I already knew is different in that respect. And if you're asserting most of what I'm saying is false, then are you claiming that there are no recently extant non-Yemenite Middle Eastern Hebrew traditions that pronounce teth (emphatic) differently from hard taw (non-emphatic), or hard kaph (non-emphatic) differently from qoph (emphatic), or sadhe as an emphatic fricative rather than as an affricate? - Gilgamesh (talk) 11:42, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

I notified the Hebrew Wikipedia noticeboard of this discussion.Icewhiz (talk) 06:27, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

• Strong delete. The article is preposterous. For the umpteenth time, "Mizrahi" is a label arbitrarily imposed on disparate communities which have virtually nothing in common, originally; the term became convenient, and in English Wikipedia it is anachronistically conferred on these communities as if they were always "Mizrahim". The article at question is absolutely not well sourced. The Sephardi, Yemenite etc. liturgical pronunciations are utterly distinct. They were never bundled under the umbrella term "Mizrahi". A quick survey in Google Books will reveal that (Raciolinguistics: How Language Shapes Our Ideas About Race, p. 187; The Israelis: Ordinary People in an Extraordinary Land, p. 122) the term "Mizrahi Hebrew" is very rarely mentioned, and only in the Israeli context: it is denoted as the vulgar lower-class manner of speech. As such, it falls under the definitions that IceWhiz brought above, that clearly assert that Modern Hebrew lacks dialects. Editors here should not display their own supposed knowledge (or conjectures) about Hebrew linguistics, but determine whether the concept is extant and well-defined in academic sources. It is not. AddMore-III (talk) 07:18, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

  You can try rebranding the Mizrahi Jews article, and put quotations around Mizrahim everytime, it won't change that Mizrahim exist as a real identity today according to the sources you provide. As I have asked multiple times, please refrain from citing sources unrelated to anything we are discussing. This article is about various pronunciation systems for Biblical Hebrew, not claiming to be a dialect of Modern Hebrew. --Gruzinim (talk) 07:55, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

• Keep. The idea of deleting this is built off the premise that this article is claiming to be a dialect of Modern Hebrew. It very plainly states that this is referring to various pronunciation systems of Biblical Hebrew by Jews from the Middle East. These pronunciations are distinct enough to deserve not to be stuffed in the same category as the pronunciation system which developed among Jews from Spain. Also, it is false that Mizrahi means non-European as is claimed in the "word of explanation." There are groups like Beta Israel and the Cochin Jews who aren't European but are also not Mizrahi. --Gruzinim (talk) 08:06, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

  If this is pre-Israel liturgical Hebrew, then most Mizrahim (a concept that did not exist prior to 1948 or thereabouts) spoke Sephardi Hebrew variations in prayers - which has close to nothing to do with Spain (fall of Muslim Spain, final Jewish expulsion in 1492) - just as Ashkenazi Hebrew has close to nothing to do with France (Loire to Rhine - which is the source of the name) from which Jews were mostly expelled some 100 years prior (History of the Jews in France#Expulsions and Returns) - the community moving/living through Germany and ending up mostly in Poland. Sephardi Hebrew was spoken, as a prayer language, through north Africa, the levant, and the Ottoman empire (Yemenites being the notable exception).Icewhiz (talk) 12:20, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

  Multiple false assertions, you have already acknowledged in our discussions on Talk:Mizrahi Jews that the concept of Mizrahi existed prior to 1948 according to documents and censuses done in Mandatory Palestine. Jews from Iraq and Syria have distinct pronunciations from those who trace their roots to the Iberian Peninsula. Lumping them all together is inaccurate whether or not Sephardi Jews spoke Sephardi Hebrew in North Africa. That doesn't change that there are traditions from Jews who were there before the arrival of Sephardim. This Mizrahi erasure is alarming. --Gruzinim (talk) 17:21, 15 February 2019 (UTC)