Talk:Maryland

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This article manages not to mention tobacco once :(

What did you have in mind? Jacob1207 00:11, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Tobacco is now mentioned in " Economy - Agriculture". We could say a lot more about it, but there is also a hyperlink added to a good separate article. Think that's enough? JN, Dec 12. 2004

Topographic map

Is there any consideration to including a topographic map of maryland such as the one produced by the National Geophysical Data Center (Government agency)? There is an example map for Virginia

no info whatso ever:(

Little Known Fact

do we really need that fact about Maryland being bigger than Lesotho? There are a lot of countries smaller than states.

Climate

Baltimore, Annapolis, and St. Mary's City are a part of the Atlantic Coastal plain as well, according to every geography textbook I've read, and the climate is rated CFa by geographical standards, which is a humid subtropical climate. Whoever keeps changing this needs to find sources to back this up.

I haven't been involved in this but I would really like to see some authoritative citations or references for calling any part of Maryland "humid subtropical". I tried looking up definitions of this climate zone but the definitions vary from reference to reference (and not all agree with the definition given in the "humid subtropical" Wikipedia article this links to). Many references cite the "southeastern" states but without specifically citing Maryland, which is is arguably one of the northeastern states. MrDarwin 18:47, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I think the USDA zone map should be removed from the climate section. The USDA zones are not climate zones, they are plant hardiness zones. Such a map would be more appropriate in an agriculture section. Downtown Baltimore is in zone 8, but so is Tucson,AZ and Atlanta!! And those cities have much warmer climates than Baltimore. So if nobody objects, I will remove the USDA zone map in a few days. It is NOT a climate map. And Strongbad, where does it say that Baltimore City is 90% subtropical? Faz90 17:23, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Maryland 'wasp-waist'?

I can't find a single reference to the narrow part of Maryland around the town of Hancock being called the 'wasp-waist.' Every site I've found on Google is just a mirror/copy of the text founf here. Until some independent verification can be foudn to support these label, then the wasp-waist refernce should be removed.

Sdrawkcab 11:04, 17 October 2005 (UTC)sdrawkcab

The term "wasp waist" is a common term, which is found in ten different dictionaries, meaning a very slender waist.

GraemeMcRae 17:33, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

The problem isn't with 'wasp-waist' as a geunine word, rather it is using it here in "Maryland wasp-waist" as if that is the name for that geographical feature. I can't find another site that calls that particular part of Maryland the 'Maryland wasp-waist.' While I agree it's as good a term as any, it is not in gneral usage as say the Inland Empire or the Southwick Jog. If you can find a genuine reference then I'd be happy to see it used, but at the moment it looks as if someone is just trying the christen the geo. feature in the hope of having it used more widely. Sdrawkcab 21:15, 19 October 2005 (UTC)sdrawkcab

Pronunciation

I've added an IPA transcriotion of the name (please correct it as you see fit) as Maryland is probably the most mispronounced state name, more so than Arkansas. For example, the BBC is notably negligent, pronouncing it "Mary-land" (rhymes with "hairy sand") at least three quarters of the time. (And no, this is not the "British pronunciation.")

Perhaps we should also mention the pronunciation in a less technical manner, though Wikipedia:Manual of Style (pronunciation) discourages phonetic transcriptions such as MAR-uh-lund; and Maryland, pronounced correctly, doesn't rhyme with anything.

A recording of the name would be good. ProhibitOnions 10:06, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Marylanders needed!

I need some Marylanders who've been to Great Falls to look over these articles and help expand them. Many of them are little more than stubs:

• Chesapeake and Ohio Canal National Historical Park
• Olmsted Island
• Bear Island
• Great Falls of the Potomac River
• Billy Goat Trail

I'm a Marylander myself but I don't know everything! Thanks for the help! --Cyde Weys 06:58, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Mid Atlantic State?

How is it that Maryland is considered a mid Atlantic state when it lies south of the Mason-Dixon Line and D.C., which is land formerly Maryland territory, is considered a "southern" capital city? Even in the Civil War, while remaining a Union State, Maryland sympathised with the Confederacy. Although since World War II, the state's economy and political affiliations more resemble the Northeast it remains a southern state. I am changing the introductory line accordingly. --206.45.166.197 13:44, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

First off geographically it is in the middle of the Atlantic coast. Also the idea that the Mason-Dixon line as the separation is not always taken as gospel, M&D line also separated Maryland and Delaware, and considering that Delaware is also a considered a Southern State, that have been some that would put forward that that Potomac would be a better diving line. Also today Maryland is far from having a culture that is close to being in common with the culture that of the most of the South. Either way i put it back in and left southern since it officially designated that by census. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 06:27, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I am from Maryland and have lived in both Maryland and Virginia. Let me just say this: the idea that Maryland is a Southern state is absolutely disgusting, perhaps one of the most insulting things I have ever heard. I am going to change this section of the article. Boothy is right; the Mason Dixon line today is essentially void, marking only a historical division. The Potomac more clearly and more practically demarcates the separation between South and Northeast. Consider, if you will, that Maryland is: one of the ten wealthiest states in the country; a heavy industrial and technological center; home to the vibrant city of Baltimore, one of the most important in the United States; a state with Northern weather that includes severe winters (I don't care what the climate section says: I lived there for sixteen years, experienced the Blizzard of 1996, and watched heavy snowfall take down half of the B&O Railroad Museum); a state that did not secede the Union like the craven Southern blood traitors in 1861; and, perhaps most importantly, one of the Democratic Party's most faithful strongholds.

In Maryland (where I lived, by the way), there is widespread derision so far as the South is concerned, and we had a tendency to view even neighboring Virginia as backward and alien. My own move to Virginia confirmed this; with the exception of Fairfax and Loudoun counties, the state is a wasteland. Southerners don't even think of us as Southerners. They hate us for being liberal, richer, and better-educated than they are.

That reminds me: Maryland also has one of the best school systems in the nation. In fact, we have the second highest number of students passing AP exams in the country.

Just think about this. Outstanding schools, advanced industry, enormous wealth, widespread affluence, strongly Democratic tendencies, hatred of the South (and of our dear President)--do these sound like the traits of a Southern state?

A quick look at the 2004 electoral map will show you what I'm talking about. There's a reason that Maryland is Blue. I will be changing the cultural section very soon. User: History21

Wow, as a proud native Marylander and a graduate of UMD who now lives in GA, i've got to say that your anti-South rant is one of the most blatantly biased, historically ignorant, and irrationally bigoted diatribes i've ever encountered. You are filled with a lot of hate. Maryland is neither northern or southern. It's unique.Jcpaco 12:01, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

While I agree with the most of what you have said, the problem is that "official" regional definition are set by the census, and the census places the state in South Atlantic region, which is part of the Souther region. Also, there are still significant amounts of residents who would consider the state as part of the South and not part of the North. Also, your argument about relation to Southern culture can and has been used in the same way with the North. So I see no real reason to remove the mention other then a POV reason. I will tighten up the definition a bit, though. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 04:39, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Good discussion. One way to look at the North-South divide is to see where the plantations were before the Civil War. A very rough guide would place the Eastern Shore and Southern Maryland (from Annapolis south) as southern, with Baltimore and points north and west as northern. (I grew up in Howard County and always considered myself a northerner, but realized later that things were quite different just a few miles away.) Ken Gallager 16:21, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

The whole industry thing boggles me as a bit 50 years ago, too. Industry has INVADED the South, too. Just go to Atlanta or Birmingham and you'll find much the same as you do in Baltimore. Having grown up in Baltimore (amongst other states) for a big chunk of my life, I find the culture of the people more in line with the South: slightly backward, goofy, and traditional in many ways. The state votes democratic because of the high proportion of African Americans and trhe fact that metropolitan Washington DC has become a haven for northerners and people really from all over the country. Go down to Easton or Cambridge and it's as southern as Savannah or Mobile. And as for Baltimore having "severe" winters? Ha! Whoever said that has obviously never lived in Chicago, Cleveland, Buffalo, Denver, Minneapolis, or any other of the hundreds of U.S. locales that get WAY colder and have WAY more frequent snowstorms than MD does. Climate wise, the eastern 2/3rds of MD has more in common with N. Georgia than it does with N. Dakota. Sorry. Just the facts.

Why is it that the only two people who actually grew up in Maryland (Ken Gallager and myself) actually consider themselves to be Northerners? Who are you to compare us to the South? How dare you? "Just the facts?" The facts are that Marylanders find the South abhorrent, that we resent the political influence that it wields, and that we consider the mindless Neanderthals on our southern border at best a necessary evil. We are nothing, nothing like them.

And Maryland doesn't have severe winters? Maybe not in comparison to Minnesota, but in comparison to the South (which it is supposedly a part of), the state is frigid. At my own home, it was not uncommon for January temperatures to sink to 7 degrees. I'm sure that happens in North Georgia all the time. And the 1996 and 2003 blizzards, they no doubt affected the Carolinas as well. It makes my blood boil to think that people actually lump us into the same category with those...people.

Absolutely disgusting.

And what of the real facts? What of the state's schools, its politics, its wealth, its influence? In my old town, there are still bullet holes in some homes from when the traitorous Confederate filth marched their way over our virgin soil, defiling and disgracing our state with their foul invasion. Maryland was raped. Don't you think we ever forgot that.

And when push came to shove, early Confederate sympathies did not matter; as the Southerners carried out their abomination, Marylanders banded together to barricade Baltimore that they might advance no farther. We are different in every way imaginable. Beyond statistics, our spirits are wholly separate. I was raised in Maryland and only learned after moving that some stubbord (and unknowledgeable) people had the nerve to call us a Southern state. It is just not so. Sorry. Just the facts. Oooooooh! Oh, you've got some kind of nerve! User: History21

Folks, Maryland was unquestionably considered a southern (or "border") state at the time of the Civil War. Times have changed, and the state's southern identity seems largely to have been lost (something that can arguably be said for DC and most of Northern Virginia as well). We might want to phrase it thus: "While traditionally considered a Southern or border state, Maryland today is more closely identified with the mid-Atlantic, or even Northeastern United States." ...and then explain why (then: plantations, slavery; now: DC-to-Boston megalopolis).

One joke I heard often when I lived in MD: "Northern charm, southern efficiency." ProhibitOnions 13:36, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Maryland is a Mid-Atlantic state. I have lived my whole life in Maryland and I never heard it called anything else while I was going to school or by anyone born in Maryland. However, The eastern shore of Maryland has more in commom with the south. The suburbs of D.C. and Baltimore have more in commom with the north. Maryland is just a mixed bag. It has both Northern and Southern culture.People just don't like to admit it. I do not consider myself a Northerner or Southerner.I have to say the person who said how great the schools are...well look at P.G. County and Baltimore city schools.They are not great. The eastern shore of Maryland is not a democratic stronghold by any means.

Just a Statement I'd like to say something here about this whole debate. I was born in Maryland, raised in Maryland, raised my children in Maryland, and taught school in Maryland for three decades. So far as I knew, and so far as my fellow Marylanders have been concerned, we were always a Northern state. I did not realize that this was a question until seeing this page. User:Joan53

Which is my point in the comment above. But we weren't alive in, say, 1860, when Maryland would have been considered very much a Southern state. (I find the idea strange myself, being a sort-of Tennessean who lived in MD for several years.) Remember also that the site of Washington DC was chosen for its Southern location. ProhibitOnions 13:24, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm offended that anyone would consider Maryland northern OR southern. We've always been in the middle, that's the way I've always seen it. Putting Maryalnd in the Mid Atlatic doesn't necessarily make us northern, in fact I've always seen the Mid Atlantic as a grouping for the states that have areas of northern and southern culture.

As for putting Maryland in the north based on politcal leanings, I think the red-purple-blue counties map is more of an accruate way of seeing where politics lie here than the red state-blue state map. You can clearly see that it is only the majority of the Baltimore-Washington Metropolitan Area that is blue.

I also find it funny that while another argument for Maryland being northern was our good schools, someone brought up that Baltimore City and PG County schools are failing, and take another look at that election map and see which two "counties" are the bluest (and therefore most "northern").

I think that only proves that Maryland is in the middle, so the article should say that many people put Maryland in a definition of the Mid Atlantic which doesn't necessarily include it in the North. -Jeff ^(talk) 16:13, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Jeff (and others), While I respect your opinion I must disagree with you. To begin with, the "counties map" is deliberately deceptive; many of the Red counties on the map are no more than empty expanses of land populated by a few people. Republicans hold no serious control in Maryland. The overwhelming majority of Maryland's population is concentrated in the vicinity of either Baltimore or Washington, DC. If the Republican counties had electorates even nearly as large as the urban counties, Maryland wouldn't be so fiercely liberal. I am generally not riled by this sort of thing, but find the map tactic to be underhanded. User:Joan53

I laugh that you find cold hard stats deceiving, and that the rural counties of Maryland are desolate and therefore uninmportant. Wikipedia is not a place to espouse your agenda and its often illogical biases. WillC 23:56, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Why get so heated, WillC? Joan is right, anyways, that map is deceiving, just look at this cartogram where the counties are shown by population size, as opposed to area. Using a generous definition of what is considered outside the BW area (the whole eastern shore, the three southern Maryland counties, and four western Maryland counties), only about 1,170,000 people live outside central Maryland of the state's 5,600,000, or about 1/5th of the population, and it shouldn't be taken for granted that all of these areas are conservative as both maps show that there are no pure red areas. This discussion is getting a little ridiculous and has made it clear that most of Maryland is northern, with outlying regions less so, as could be said for Pennsylvannia, Illinois, or other traditionally northern states, and I say this as someone who grew up in the BW area. In no way is Maryland hotly contested in presidential elections, Kerry won by 13 percent in 2004! User:drewbwhite

Northern does not equal liberal as you imply. I sense an anti-rural bias here and it best not creep onto the main page. WillC 01:03, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

WillC, My "agenda" is the truth, and I would appreciate you're not talking to me in that manner. This map (http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/election/countycart3070large.png) is the truth. I'm not taking sides here, but I feel like the Republican side is getting artificial representation here. I don't like that, not one bit. And I didn't say that the rural counties are worthless; I merely said that most of the people don't live in them, so their votes are not reflective of reality. Thank you. Joan53

What truth do you represent? And your statements imply that rural votes are not as important as beltway votes....please....take your agenda elsewhere. WillC 01:15, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm aware that liberalness is not alone enough to qualify the state as a northern one, after all Pennsylvannia is a swing state and several northern states have republican governors, but most of the discussion here seems to indicate that Maryland should be placed in a mid-atlantic category, with outlying, less densely populated areas noted as a cultural exception. There isn't anti-rural bias here and I'm not advocating that the west, south, and east be neglected, it's just that most of the state's population is urban and the page is going to and should reflect that. The other areas are exceptions, not the rule, and for wikipedia to say anything else would just be a lie. I welcome additions that tell more about the culture out west and on the eastern shore, both of which are interesting areas with a more appalacian and southern flavor respectively, but I'm leaving it to someone with more familiarity with the subject, and I do think the recent additions to the cultural identity section are just a quagmire of biased statistics that don't reflect the regional variations in the state. Screaming bias everytime someone posts something you don't agree with isn't going to add to the discussion here, and I did not imply that northern equals liberal, but you can't deny that it's a big factor. Based on your comments and user page if anyone has an agenda here it would be you. User:drewbwhite

As a wikipedia veteran, I can assure you I know bias when I see it. And for me to see on the main Maryland page that the South is both poor and uneducated, and then used to justify MD as a northern state, is more than i can take as a good-faith contributor here. Those comments are as unsourced and POV as you can get on wikipedia. Go with the fact that the census bureau regards maryland as Southern, as does the Mason-Dixon Line. Where you think it is based on the placement of your housing development in the Western Shore surburbs has no basis on fact and therefore no place on wikipedia. All you all are doing is throwing poo by trying to place Maryland where you think it should be. (Plural)--> Your comments are not encyclopedic and do not belong here. WillC 01:27, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I support removing many of the facts from the cultural identity section, but it is true that of the ten richest states by personal per capita income none are southern. Both the census bureau and the Mason-Dixon definitions are dated, and if you consider the Mason-Dixon line a legitimate cultural barrier, you certainly are out of touch. Are you even a Marylander? I lived the first 18 years of my life there and saw most of the state, and what I primarily object to is the tone you take here. No one is being biased, and the facts show that the overwhelming majority of people in Maryland live in the central urban area, about 80 percent in the more immediate suburban counties with Montgomery and Prince George's both having nearly a million each, so why throw insults? I agree that the section was biased, but it shouldn't be thrown out, but restructured, as all of the facts about Maryland were legitimate and did show similarities with the northeast.User:drewbwhite

And it has been restructured to a more-NPOV and thus wiki-friendly tone and format. WillC 01:41, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I am becoming rather tired with the constant reversion in the cultural section of any fact that doesn't fit into what you think Maryland should be or what the South should not be. This is not a format for Southern nationalism, and the fact that you find the South's financial position to be insulting does not mean it isn't true. This is not disputed; Maryland and the other top ten states fall outside of the Southern category. As always, these things are open for discussion, but wealth and industry are decidedly Northern characteristics, characteristics that Maryland happens to share. You cannot just delete anything that doesn't sit well with you.

The sheer fact that Maryland is Democratic doesn't make it Northeastern. The financial and educational sections are integral components to the state's classification.

Joan53

I am on the verge of having this article locked because of unjustified reversions of verified material. Stop doing this. Joan53

SOURCE YOUR EDITS. WillC 02:17, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I support the addition of the old cultural identity section by Joan, but I think more needs to be said about the Eastern Shore and Western Maryland. These regions have prospered with the rest of the state, though to a lesser degree, and maintain much of their southern flavor. Some of the wording bothers me a bit, and I may go in and change a couple things because right now it sort of makes the south sound like a forsaken backwater in a couple of places.

Okay, I just looked back at the article and saw that Will had deleted the whole section again, even reverting back to the poorly formated original version that I've changed twice for spelling and looks (which includes "Republicansim," which I'm pretty sure is not a word unless I'm just out of it). Please just give it a rest. Rather than deleting large swaths of the article, change the wording, delete selectively, and add, because the section pointed out many true and relevant facts, though I do agree it makes it seem as though the writer has a bone to pick with the south. I'm just not going to bother anymore with this.

I think there should be a vote. I lived the first 24 years of my life in Balto city, the next 2 in Cockeysville, the next 6 in Durham NC, the next 5 in Sarasota FL, and now I live in Catonsville (Baltimore suburb) and I've asked around in my travels. I believe MD to be a Mid-Atlantic state (I believe this term to apply to DE, VA, NC and possibly NJ and PA as well). And I think that both Southerners and Northerners would accept this categorization as being the most apt description for MD. I could've somewhat agreed with the ranter's attitude about the south when I was young and stupid but think he's all wet now. Besides, Balto tried to secede from the Union in the civil war (Pratt street riots) and murdered the northern troops from Boston that were lodged in a Balto hotel while passing through to DC. The federal government had to violently suppress Baltimore's secession. That tells me that even the area he's referring to in his rant was at least highly sympathetic to the southern cause. Like another poster has posted above, I've always personally felt that MD is a mix and therefore "Mid-Atlantic" and the southern areas in which I've lived and travelled more or else see things that way as well (although Balto's early industrialization is probably the best argument for a "Northern" categorization).

Northernisms

Since when has “Urban” equaled North and “Rural” a synonym for South? That is totally illogical. You can’t argue the point that since Central MD is Urban/Suburban its a Northern State, that’s foolish. If that’s the case rural upstate New York as well as the State of Maine should be called Southern and Urban/Industrialized Atlanta and Miami are Northern. How logical is that? Just because Maryland has a large urbanized city that gets a little snow doesn’t make it a Northern state (Atlanta even gets a little snow). How come it seems wherever “Northerners” move to in massive droves; the area settled becomes know as “northern” for example Southern Florida, if you’d go any further south you’d be in the sea, yet this area is not considered to be “Southern” the same is to be said about Phoenix, AZ; Baltimore, MD; Washington, DC; Suburban Delaware (Wilmington) and Virginia. As if the North is some ever expanding Amoeba that is slowly engulfing the country. The south has be stigmatized so much that is has become taboo to be considered a Southerner. And just because a state is politically one way or the other doesn’t make it Northern or southern. They have democrats in the South and Republicans in the North. The Republicans freed the slaves for goodness sake! Due to the large influx of immigrant workers and presence of minorities of which most of these demo graphics vote Democratic are the reasons why Maryland, Washington, DC and to a lesser extent Virginia are overwhelmingly liberal with the latter being a bit more conservative outside of the major cities. As an African-American who lived in both Maryland and Virginia, I’ve grown to accept the fact that we are “southern” although if asked I state that I’m from the Mid-Atlantic. I hate to get into these North/South debates. I wish the east coast was more like the west coast. I never hear of Seattle & Portland bickering with LA or Southern Cali resenting San Francisco. D-Law The Monster from the Mid-Atlantic

Cultural Identity, POV and Unsourced

Well it seems that history has taken it's attempt to define Maryland as a Northern only state form the discussion page to the article it's self. The user has basically rehashed his point of view as stated above into the article, w/o hardly a source to back up any of his claims, most of which have little to no bearing in the Cultural Identity of the state or on it's regional classification. Besides the fact the the section now is grossly misleading in practically all contexts, historical, cultural, informative, and so on, it is an extremely narrow def in that it really only describes the Balt-Wash metro, and basically discounts, Western Maryland, Southern Maryland, and the Eastern Shore. To but is simply the section is little more then a rant due to the fact that the user cant get with the idea that census classified the state in the South Atlantic division for official statistical purposes, and in all regards should just be removed. But i'll leave it in and hope someone can sort threw the mess, for now. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 04:12, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Well since the pov has yet to be delt with, and the section contines to be mostly unsourced, and that the current sources do not back up the claim of the rant, as it is not a section, i am giving the section untill Wed, and if not NPOV by then then i am removing back to the former version on the grounds of that it is POV, and the it violates WP:NOT --Boothy443 | trácht ar 05:22, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

First off, "its", not "it's"; and my god the second comment is virtually incoherant. and blah blah hello i am a spelling grammar naziboy (self-vandalism - N ) - however. As a resident of Maryland, I have always felt that Maryland should be considered a "northern" state. Looking on a map, if one were to draw a line equidistant from the northern tip of Maine and the southern tip of Florida, Maryland would easily be in the north. While Virginia (along with the rest of what is commonly termed "the south") has a reputation for, shall we say, conservative politics, Maryland has been one of the more moderate states in the union (c.f. the Walmart decision, the anti-polygraph legislation, etc). While one finds a slightly more conservative, hick-ass (apologies, but I'm in a rush and can't think of a nice way to put it) attitude prevalant (sic?) along the eastern shoreboard, for the most part, even up in the mountains, Maryland is more a Boston than an Atlanta. I could go into architecture, landscapes, and a whole mess of et cetery to further support my viewpoint - which is, simply put, that it is hardly controversial to consider Maryland a part of the North, and frankly the only way a "southern" definition would stick is if we throw out everything except the Mason Dixon line - and then where exactly would that leave Los Angeles? If one is willing to consider California a "southern state" based on the Mason Dixon line, then that autistic insanity has won my, uh, respect. --Nugneant 09:43, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Will: First you are unable to come to grips with the North being poorer than the South, and now that the North is more densely populated and urban than the South. If you don't see how Maryland being more urban does not tie it closely with the North, there is no hope in even bothering trying to discuss with you. I don't see how that's "Poor logic," it's one of the most fundamental differences between the Northeast and South. Please stop blatantly promoting your Southern agenda here, you can't omit and bend facts to make Maryland look more Southern than it is. Your argument that Maryland is mostly rural is also worthless, as that holds true of almost any state, including larger northern states. Southern culture is practiced in southern Illinois, should we stop considering it a Northern state? Also, the sentence that says that "17 of 24 jurisdictions are completely rural" is false. You say that as an argument to show that Maryland is more Southern, and then when I say that most of the people living in urban areas ties it to the North you call my statement poor logic? So you get to say that Maryland shares large rural areas in common with the South (not even a good point) but I don't get to cite its large, dense urban areas as a tie with the North? You've stated that Maryland has large rural areas, that historically the state was tied with the South, and that the state is below the Mason-Dixon line. This does little to disprove more substantial cultural or economic ponts that group the state with the Midatlantic area.User:Drewbwhite

Finally, your elitist materialistic agenda comes out. You view the South as some poverty-stricken backwater that you are scared to acknowledge exists....is that because the other elitists in your Beltway neighborhood might think lesser of you? By the way, let's count the rural Maryland counties: Garrett, Allegany, Washington, Frederick, Carroll, Harford, Cecil, Kent, Queen Anne's, Caroline, Talbot, Dorchester, Somerset, Worcester, Wicomico, St. Mary's, Charles, and Calvert. 18! Agriculture is the number one sector of the economy in every single one FACT. I'll let you subtract one bedroom county just because I'm nice. Furthermore, Illinois is a Midwestern, not a Northeastern state. Has no bearing in this discussion. But let's talk about density. Tokyo and Mexico City have dense populations...by your logic that makes them Northeastern. Florida and Texas...both densely populated....Northern then? There is such a thing as a Southern city. You are using poor logic and I am calling you out on your semantics. WillC 20:21, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea how you read such things into my statement. I acknowledge that the North is richer and now I'm anti-south? Statistics prove it. Is the census biased? I don't object to you calling those counties rural, just "completely" rural. Many of them have strong ties to the urban areas, and rural-ness does little to tie a state with the south. By the way, I wasn't calling Illinois northeastern, but NORTHERN, which it is, with pockets of southern culture. Oh, and Texas isn't densely populated in the slightest, it's ranked 28th. Even its big cities, like Houston for instance, have low population densities due to the availability of land and their later development, after the advent of the car. Houston has about the same population density of suburban Columbia, Maryland (just a bit above 1000 people/km squared). Please, "elitist?" Why do you turn this into a personal attack? I grew up in Maryland but my family is from Georgia, Tennessee, Virginia, Alabama, and Mississippi. Bos-Wash is a bit different from Atlanta or Houston. It's not I who hates the South, but you who loves it, as evidenced by your user page, and perhaps you also dislike the North. I have nothing but admiration for most aspects of Southern culture, but it is not prevalent in Maryland. You basically said that I said: the Northeastern United States is dense and urban, therefore all dense urban areas are Northeastern American. Therefore apparently I said that Mexico City and Tokyo belong in the Northeast United States. What I actually said was that the Northeast United States is dense and urban and that Maryland shares the characteristic, and that most Marylanders live in the BosWash megalopolis. I did not say that high population density is exclusive to the Northeast. I did not say that there are no urban areas in the South. You said that the South is more rural and agricultural "yourself." My logic doesn't make Mexico City northeastern, stop taking the points out of context. This is a discussion of whether an American border state is more Northern or Southern, and the South is less dense and more rural while the North is more so, with most of its population living in urban areas. Is that not true? Is that not fact? Western China is rural, does that make it southern? How about Chiapas, Mexico? There, I just applied your logic to your own point. Nice counterargument.That's a very fundamental logical fallacy you made. I don't see how that is biased vandalism. User:Drewbwhite

NORTH?

Maryland is not a northern state because it is below the Mason-Dixon Line. WillC 12:30, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

You know what else is below the Mason Dixon line? Most of California. --Nugneant 09:47, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Not true. The Mason-Dixon line ends at the border of PA and W. VA. California was not even a part of this country when the line was surveyed in 1767.

It is a "mix" state. In colonial times, it BECAME a slave state because 2/3rds on it has more topographical similarity to the southern states (loamy, sandy soil, as opposed to the rocky soils of the Northeast), and Baltimore had more in common climate-wise with Atlanta than it did with Boston. It has become more industrialized and urban, but so have Charlotte, Atlanta, Birmingham, Nashville, and Memphis.

Drive down to Easton, MD sometime and stop at any gas station. Ask the cashier a question and listen for him to talk. You'll know you're in the SOUTH.

SOURCING

I kindly urge all to document their edits; if not, you risk having your info removed. For starters, unless you have a formall poll showing that many Marylanders hate being called Southern, it has to go. Blanket statements such as the South has poor schools falls in the same category. New Wiki users should take a moment to read policies on good faith editing, non-point-of-view statements, and removing bias, etc.... WillC 00:17, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the north/south cultural conflict section of the article needs to be better sourced. On the other hand, it's important to include a discussion of Maryland's cultural identity. Of course Wikipedia's NPOV policy needs to be followed throughout, but there is truth to the statement that many Marylanders resent being called Southern. There is also truth to the statement that some people in Maryland consider their state a part of the South. What the article needs is a neutral, sourced discussion of the views of Marylanders, but it would be a disservice to the article and to Wikipedia as a whole to exclude a discussion of the issue. When I get the chance (hopefully in the next few days) I will make an attempt to find sources for an NPOV discussion of Maryland's cultural identity. NoIdeaNick 17:36, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

You have no definite proof that any Marylander resents being grouped as Southern. WillC 20:08, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I have lived in Maryland my whole life and I can tell you there are plenty of Marylanders who resent being called Southern. But you don't have to take my word for it. That's why Wikipedia has verifability and NPOV policies. Considering how commonly (in my experience) Marylanders consider themselves non-Southern, I'm sure it has been written about. When I get a chance, I will hunt down some of these writings and write an NPOV section for the article. The question of whether Maryland is truly part of the South culturally is beside the point. All that matters is having an NPOV discussion of those views. NoIdeaNick 20:18, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm a Marylander, who got into vicious arguments with a Bostontonian with the same POV "commonly shared" (Maryland = the south because Mason Dixon hurr hurr). Basically I believe that defining it as the Mason Dixon line is ridiculously arbitrary and (in the friend's case) only an excuse to belittle others. You know what else is south of the Mason Dixon? Most of California. Is California going to be a "southern" state? Here I always thought "south" would be a relative term, you know, like if you took a point on northern Maine, a point on central Florida, and drew a line equidistant to both - but I guess I'm a product of superior education, and have a lot to learn from isolated hicks. Hey, since we're all south of Santa Claus, we're all Southern States. --Nugneant 10:01, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

And I know just as many people from Maryland who think of themselves as Southern, enjoy the Southern lifestyle, and KNOW THEY LIVE BELOW THE MASON DIXON LINE. So what is your point? WillC 20:39, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I know a boy named Sue. It therefore follows that Sue is a boy's name. I know someone who likes being hit. Therefore all people like being hit. --Nugneant 10:01, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

My point is that any discussion of Maryland's cultural identity ought to mention both those who think of themselves as southern and those who don't. The Mason-Dixon line is the traditional dividing line between the North and the South, but there are those who would question whether the Mason-Dixon line is any longer a legitimate cultural border. I'm not saying it is and I'm not saying it isn't. I'm just saying that it's a point of debate in Maryland, and that debate ought to be included in the article. NoIdeaNick 21:21, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree. But it needs to be even and as of now it is not. Say there is an argument and leave it at that. WillC 21:22, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Also, there's no surveys that state that a majority of respondants consider Assateague Island "the most noted feature of Delaware, Maryland, and Virginia", so I think that has to go as well. Not to mention that I have a friend from Russia who considers a Maryland summer unbearably hot and muggy, and Maryland winters pretty damn tropical. So can we see a poll that declares what "moderately cold" and "warm" mean? Also, finally, I have a business acquaintance on the Moon who believes that "significant" means, in fact, "of least importance" - and he enjoys this, and LIVES BELOW THE MASON DIXON LINE. So how about a poll confirming this? Thanks - --Nugneant 10:01, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I think we're actually in agreement about this. The cultural section of the article is clearly not NPOV and might even be considered original research as it now stands. I was just announcing my intention to seriously clean up the section with sourced information when I get a chance. NoIdeaNick 21:24, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Please do. WillC 21:43, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I would just like to note that the entire Northern side of the argument is well-sourced, while the Southern side doesn't have a single citation to back it up.

History21

But your "facts" are irrelevant. I will add 2 + 2 = 4 to the article and will condemn anyone who deletes it. It's a FACT! WillC 12:07, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

The Northern side of the argument is well sourced ? Honestly, that is just your bias. I was taught in Maryland Public Schools that Maryland was a Mid-Atlantic state with Southern heritage. Look up Maryland in an encyclopedia and you will see words like Mid-Atlantic , Middle Atlantic and South Eastern. A lot of the debate here seems political. Some Marylanders may consider themselves Northern and some may consider themselves Southern but isn't that just personal opinion of how they see themselves or relate to. Mike 17:16, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

EXACTLY! WillC 17:38, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Here are a few interesting things. First of all, a NASA website that lists Baltimore as Northeastern:http://eosweb.larc.nasa.gov/HPDOCS/misr/misr_html/philadelphia.html.

And a number of maps and things: http://www.gradschools.com/giffile/usmap4.gif

http://www.odfl.com/locator/USNorthEast.jsp

http://www.woolworks.org/stores/us_ne.html

http://genealogypro.com/directories/USA-NE.html

http://home.att.net/~Lamont.Downs/rr/ne.html

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Record_snowfall_in_Northeastern_United_States (this is from Wikipedia itself)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10958587&dopt=Abstract

http://gbgm-umc.org/usa/northeastern.html

http://www.nffs.org/html/northe.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Real_Freshmen_Handbook (this, a description of a book from 1996, also on Wikipedia)

As usual, your citations aren't relevant. The official one is The Census. Maybe I'll make a map showing Alaska as a tropical state since it is stuck next to Hawaii in the corner of some maps. Regardless, I could find several other handpicked sites that put MD in the Southeast. If you understood how to play this game you would have given examples of both sides and we could have weighed in on their credibility here. You say I have an agenda? You just incriminated yourself....again. One more time....everyone else here is adding info that shows it is a border state with characteristics of both North and South. You want to make it Northern only and you have no leg to stand on. Admit to yourself that MD is peculiar and be done with this. WillC 19:45, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Silly redneck! Try as you might to cling to the idea that the South still has at least one state that could be considered even slightly modern, prosperous, or progressive, your efforts are for naught. Maryland will never be a Southern state, no matter how many sources you delete (doing away with information you don't like in very Southern fashion, I might add!) or how loudly you complain. And in case you haven't noticed yet, most of the people here disagree with you, but are too blown away by the sheer foolishness of your arguments that they become so frustrated as to be unable to continue. Once again, you do your region justice--just don't try to say that it's our region. We wouldn't want any greasy, sweaty Southern hands touching our state, now would we? You just stay south of the Potomac where you belong ("you" being a collective, not referring to any one person). Maryland will keep treading its Northeastern track while unknowledgeable (or delusional) fools like you (this time singular) babble on about how it is theoretically Southern. Oh, wow. And I thought that Wikipedia was supposed to reflect reality! Have a nice day, Mr. WillC. Catch some opposums for me!

History21 20:07, 7 May 2006 (UTC)History21

Your last post violates Wikipedia policy on namecalling and civility. Furthermore, I'm not the only one to revert your misleading sources...for the last several days people have been weighing in and siding with my NPOV statements on thr main article...ironically, people you tried to recruit to edit against me! Lastly, if there is anyone complaining -- and loudly -- it is you. For the last time, READ THE POLICIES OF WIKIPEDIA. WillC 20:33, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, History21... Silly Yankee! As is usual with your sort of people, your arrogance precedes you! I thought that I was the only one to be slighted by your genius when I realized that you had added onto my article The Real Freshmen Handbook (assuming no doubt that a dumb Georgian couldn't possibly complete the piece on his own), and yet it turns out that you have afflicted numerous users with your pseudo-intellectual twittering! As is the case with so many Northerners, you have managed to take a decent argument and contaminate it with such pure snobbishness and bigotry (surely you've realized by now that you Northerners can be bigoted?) that all others discard your logic with disgust.

Bang-up job!

I was born and raised in Georgia, lived there until my seventeenth birthday, spent a mercifully short three months in the blessed Northern paradise known as Maryland, and have resided since in California. So long as Maryland being a Northern state, you couldn't be more correct; I realized from your condescending, self-righteous idiocy that only a diehard Yankee could have been ranting against the supposed evils of Dixie. I checked out some of your posts on people's talk pages. So Robert E. Lee is "traitor-filth," huh?

That is the same kind of mindless discrimination and visceral, groundless dislike that I found myself subject to every day while living in what I have come to regard as this Union's most accursed state. For claiming to be a land of tolerance and acceptance, you all sure know how to make a person feel utterly miserable for their cultural roots. Marylanders would jabber on and on about how much they loved President Clinton--but let me show a Southern flag and they were ready to burn me at the stake. Such an enlightened people!

You dare to say that Maryland was "raped?" What kind of fantasy world do you live in? You want to talk about rape? Talk about Georgia. Talk about Richmond. Talk about the hundreds of miles of devastated farmland, the shattered generations, the heart of an entire nation that was utterly and completely eviscerated.

You horrible people, subjugators who pretended to be subjugated, will never know what the Civil War was really about, nor can you know what the South is really about. You want to claim that what makes you different is your money, your malls, your cities, your schools? That's fine. In fact, I'll support it. I've been to both placed, and Maryland outpaced Georgia in absolutely everything. I'm not ashamed of it. We haven't all been blessed to grow up in Grand Pa Washington's backyard. But that's still not what separates us.

What separates us is a wall, a wall of love on one side and iron on the other. The Potomac is as much a spiritual (to borrow your word) boundary as a political one. We are distinguished by our faith in God, our hospitality, our independence, our chivalry, our nobility, and our respect. You are distinguished by your lack thereof.

So yes, Maryland is a Northern state. In fact, Maryland is as Northern as it is possible to be. You reject the South? Ha, that makes me laugh. We reject you. We don't want or need your vicious cruelty, your mocking, your mean spirits. Keep all of that to yourselves.

For those of you here trying to claim Maryland as a Southern or even a border state, that battle was ended long ago. Maryland had the chance to show her allegiance. She chose her side, and there she remains. The intentions of people like WillC and many others are good, but the answer lies in the very contrast between History21 and the others. It is about decency, courtesy, and respect.

Harper32 22:25, 8 May 2006 (UTC)Harper32

I think this all has gone too far. I have been reading wikipedia for years and I decided to sign up. I was doing some research for this article because I am a Marylander and I thought I could add to it. Now with all this nonsense I have lost interest. Mike 22:31, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Mason-Dixon Line

Those who have no idea where the line is drawn and ends and those who have no idea about its significance should not be commenting on it in the main article. Furthermore, why is it that the argument that every pro-Northern person here uses to justify MD as a Northern states is "I THINK IT IS SO IT MUST BE?" That ain't gonna fly here. WillC 10:31, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I am neutral on the entire issue (despite having spent a good deal of the former part of my life in Maryland), but I feel a lot of the conflict about Maryland's culture identity as part of North and South comes from its proximity to Washington, D.C. There's a good mix of people from both sides of the MDL, as it's said. There's probably a better way to phrase the debate, but we won't find it by beating each other up. Anyhoo, those are my $0.02. :) Danny Lilithborne 10:36, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly. NoIdeaNick 21:39, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Reverts

I laugh at how the blindly reverting, POV, biased, non-following of Wikipedia policy types revert pages complete with the typos they added to the article originally. No thought whatsoever is being put into what they say. WillC 03:27, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Region

I did a quick Google search for Mid Atlantic States and 19 of the first 20 hits included Maryland in the region. While I know that doesn't prove anything, it does suggest that in popular usage if someone says "Mid-Atlantic" they mean to include Maryland. In contrast searches on Sourthern States and Northeastern States hits that were referring to a region included Maryland 6 out of 20 and 8 out of 20 times respectively. I'd also like to point out the U.S. Regions WikiProject recommendation to not abuse the Census Bureau regions, specifically "census regions should never be used to exclude a state from or lock it permanently into a region." I think the current intro places undue importance on the census bureau definition.

As for the Cultural Identity section I think it could be deleted entirely, as it is it's POV and clashes with the rest of the article. It's already written about in a much more NPOV fashion in History of Maryland. Most of the articles I've found talking about it are talking about the civil war era, so that seems a better place for it anyway. Kmusser 15:08, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

The issue is more about how Marylanders view themselves today, rather than the history of the Civil War. I think you're right when you say that the History of Maryland article covers that quite well. You may be right about scrapping the cultural identity section. The article may be much better served by having a sentence or two noting the cultural tug-of-war that Maryland has always found itself a part of as a state on the border between North and South. NoIdeaNick

In fact, the article on the Southern United States does a pretty good job of this. To quote from that article: "Southern influence waned considerably in Delaware and the urbanized portions of Maryland, but remains present in parts of rural Maryland, especially the state's Eastern Shore." NoIdeaNick 18:38, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

My entire thesis has been that Maryland is both Southern and Northern. That is what User:History21 does not get.....STILL. He wants to make it Northern only. There is your biased contributor. So either keep it NPOV using facts as both or toss it altogether. WillC 20:34, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, I've checked 3 dictionaries (2 paper ones and www.dictionary.com) and they all place Maryland as Mid-Atlantic. Note that Mid-Atlantic does not necessary mean "North" (despite what the Census Bureau may say). I'm going to change the intro accordingly unless someone gives me a good reason not to. Kmusser 14:02, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I also hope that everyone reads Harper32's little tirade against me, as it has received virtually no response. When I finally lashed out (after much provocation), WillC informed me that my comments were inappropriate and an administrator told me I had violated Wikipedia policy and advised that I not refer to WillC as a "silly redneck." Apparently no one is bothered by references to "silly Yankees" and the "foulest state in the Union" or whatever it was. So where are the WikiPolice when it's a Northerner being assailed?

History21 23:36, 9 May 2006 (UTC)History21

South or North

I received the following message when I logged on, "There is an unholy mess in the Maryland article regarding a section entitled "cultural identity." Most of the editors agree that the state is a Northern one, and many facts have been posted and adequately cited to prove that fact. A Confederate sympathizer, however, is constantly going onto the article, removing cited information, and replacing it with unsourced "statistics" that steer Maryland into the Southern category. Please read the whole debate, weigh in, and please, PLEASE, help. History21"

I think Maryland could easily be described as a technically-Southern state that never seceded from the Union. That's the response I typically give, and it seems people tend to accept it.

I haven't read the article, or the debate, but I hope my two cents are useful to you.

Allixpeeke 21:46, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I concur. Maryland is south of the Mason-Dixon line and would have voted to secede if not for the kidnapping of its legislators by the Union Army.

Even though, during the Civil War, Maryland found itself to be a southern state, most Marylanders don't see it that way anymore. However, the southern part of Maryland, especially on the border of Virginia, tend to consider themselves southern.

My father is from Tennessee, while my mother is from South Carolina, definite southern states. Having family there, I have concluded that Maryland is nothing like the south, and tends to be much more liberal and -- How do I put it nicely? -- mean. Marylanders tend to be very self-centered and boring, unlike southerners who I have found tend to be more giving and kind nowadays.

If it was up to me, I would put Maryland in the Northeast, but putting it as a "border state" is also, in my opinion, correct. Maryland seems to be split into Southern Maryland and Northern Maryland, two completely different areas.

Remember, whether it is 'south' or 'north' has NOTHING to do with the Civil War. It has to do with geography and personal identification. Most Marylanders identify as North. ~ Porphyric Hemophiliac § 15:16, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Verifiability

I have watched this discussion for a few days now. I agree with Kmusser that Maryland is "Mid-atlantic" - that's neither exclusively "northern" or "southern". "mid" connotes some of both. In context of Wikipedia, we need to comply with WP:V and WP:CITE.

• The portion of the culture section that discusses "Maryland's weather and geography" is uncited. "Moderately Southern climate" - moderately is a subjective term.
• I also see that some consider the fact that "Maryland is a blue state, politically, that makes it a northern state". Please keep in mind that the state is not homogenous. In 2004, the DC and close-in Baltimore areas (Prince George's, Montgomery, Charles, Howard, and Baltimore (city and county)) voted in majority for Kerry [1], but in all the other counties, the majority voted for Bush. This is in part due to the "rural vs. urban" debate, as well as "northern vs. southern". Given that Maryland is not homogenous, I don't think that blanket statements about Maryland's politics are appropriate.
• And the last portion "People who consider Maryland to be a Southern state ..." is completely uncited. "traditional Southern culture and occupations are commonly observed..."? Do you actually have figures on employment in particular sections of the state? I was just poking around the Maryland labor statistics website [2] and don't find anything that really substantiates "southern occupations".
• And the reason stated for Baltimore as a southern city (commonly booked city for World Championship Wrestling and hosted multiple pay-per-views for the Georgia based promotion.) is inadequate.

Finally, I'll point to a paper by Wilbur Zelinsky, a cultural geographer, [3]. There's a map on page 14 that shows regions. He has Maryland as partially "Middle Atlantic" and partially "No regional affiliation". So, if anything, the article should describe Maryland as "a mid-atlantic state, with some northern and southern cultural influences." But, I would also support deleting the section entirely; as it's written now, it's poorly cited with weak arguments. -Aude (talk | contribs) 00:53, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I think a single sentence, such as the one you suggest, would do just fine in terms of the needs of the article. NoIdeaNick 06:48, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

The very first paragraph says just that, which is the point we have been trying to prove all along. WillC 10:52, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I support the deletion of the Cultural Identity section entirely. The article could use a section on Maryland culture, but what's there now isn't even talking about culture. Kmusser 14:25, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Agree, scrap the current form, an write a section that has to do with the culture of Maryland and it's people rather then the current attempt to pigon holw it into either a northen or souther state, their is a lot that is beeing glossed over in the current format, that does no service for the state or a service in describing the cuture of it's residents. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 03:30, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

The section is gone now. As is, what the introduction says about Maryland's (northern/southern) identity suffices. -Aude (talk | contribs) 03:53, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah i dont have a problem with that , as it is correct. For statistical purposes census lists the state in the South Atlantic divinon which is part of the souther region, will put source on the intro, while it is also considered Mid-Atlantic, i.e. it is in the Mid Atlantic Milk Marketing Assn. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 04:34, 11 May 2006 (UTC) \

Well nevermmind then some one replcaed what i had put their in the first place with a generic def, the source for the geo def for censn is here. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 04:37, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

It's South Alright...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:BaltimoreSnowstorm.jpg A Southern state if ever I saw one.

So by your logic, it is impossible to snow in the South. Would you be willing to wager on that? WillC 10:32, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah. It's never EVER snowed in Atlanta, Nashville, Memphis, Charlotte, or Chattanooga. It's only my inagination that Nashville and Knoxville are, according to the USDA, and zone COLDER than Baltimore. The cabbage palm my mother has been growing in her backyard for 6 years can't really GROW in Baltimore, it's only her imagination! So THERE!! (tongue firmly in cheek)

User:Strongbad1982]

Well, it can snow in the south, but a southern city with Baltimore's elevation and proximity to the coast can NEVER get so many snowstorms with over 20 inches, and this was 28 inches! Only places like Salisbury are southern. Baltimore, metro DC, and the rest of Maryland are more northern. Faz90 21:11, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

True Moral Values

This is where most of the soldiers who have died in Iraq and Afghanistan have come from:

[[4]]

That's right, you cowards. They're all Blue, and all Northeastern.

That map is pretty much a population density map. Are LA, Houston, and Chicago also northeatern then?-Jeff ^(talk) 02:57, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Second largest

The article claims

• that Columbia, Maryland, "were it incorporated, it would be Maryland's 2nd largest city"
• that Silver Spring, Maryland is the "2nd largest "place" (population-wise) in Maryland"

Can we make up our minds? If either of these claims were put to the test, both areas would shrink considerably; the post office assigns a large swath of eastern Montgomery County to Silver Spring without any compelling geographical justification, and contrariwise one could consider Columbia to consist only of that territory to which the Columbia Association covenants apply (thus excluding, for example, Allview). Personally I am inclined simply to remove these claims. Mangoe 16:30, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

It's hard to compare the two in a meaningful way. Columbia is a fairly well-defined entity: it's a planned community, and it's a good distance away from any major cities. Silver Spring has its own downtown, but that's the only spot where "Silver Spring" is distinguishable from the rest of the sprawl that surrounds Washington, DC. There are other areas that are "Silver Spring" only in the sense that they have "Silver Spring" in their addresses. Isomorphic 05:54, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Ridgely as an important town?

I don't think that the small eastern shore town of Ridgely is notable enough to be considered an important city/town of Maryland. According to the 2000 census, the population was only 1,352. The line accompanying the blurb about Ridgely in the Maryland article: "important nation-wide fulfillment center hub for cereal box promotions and other contests; additionally enjoys widest main street in the state" doesn't include anything of any particular interest that would justify being included in the important cities/towns section. In addition, I cannot find any mention of the cereal box promotions anywhere on google(possible original research). A google of "ridgely maryland" produces similar results as one would find with any small town. The town of New Market, Maryland, for example, bills itself as "the antiques capital of maryland", but it is certainly not to be considered an important town in maryland. I have removed references to ridgely on the main page. Ravensfan5252 18:30, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Then most of the other regional ones on the list also have to go....I either put Ridgely back or else Cumberland, Ellicott City, Germantown, Towson, and Waldorf can go too. Perhaps you have just not heard of Ridgely and its commercial importance. WillC 23:20, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think being home to a single large corporation is enough to be notable, dozens of other towns could claim the same thing and we'd end up listing every Baltimore and DC suburb. Being the commercial center of a region is. Cumberland and Towson are both listed as central cities of their respective metropolitan areas by the Census Bureau. Waldorf is the largest city in it's region. Ellicott City and Germantown could probably go though.Kmusser 13:51, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Ellicott City is historically important. Germantown? Eh, either way. Ridgely comes off as more of a trivia point. Mangoe 13:59, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Ellicott City really ought to be in the history section rather than important cities, that the history section stops in 1867 is a different problem altogether. Kmusser 14:37, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Please help out here.

Talk:Province_of_Maryland Hasbro 18:36, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone else know what to do in Maryland? Is it such a boring state?

Piney_Point,_Maryland

Piney_Point,_Maryland

Piney_Point_Village,_Texas

Hopiakuta 15:58, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Highway sign

I lived in maryland for 17 years and I never saw a sign that looked like that. They're white, yes, but they're not that shape and they dont say MARYLAND --froth^{T C} 19:28, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

The ones on the green guide signs don't say "MARYLAND" on them, but the ones that stand on their own on the side of the road do (the ones telling you which route you're on). As for the shape, I'm not sure what you mean, that's the shape I have always seen Maryland state highway signs in, also check out the official specification for the signs.-Jeff ^(talk) 18:30, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the sign currently shown is correct as per the standalone black-on-white signs. However, those same signs without "Maryland" are used upon white-on-green directional signs. --Thisisbossi 05:32, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Straw poll on intro

There apparently is some disagreement as to what the intro paragraph to this article should look like.

The original intro read as follows:

Maryland (IPA: [ˈmæ.ɹɪ.lənd]), is a Mid-Atlantic state located on the East Coast of the United States and is classified by the U.S. Census Bureau as a South-Atlantic state. It was the seventh state to ratify the United States Constitution, and is nicknamed the Old Line State and the Free State. Its history as a border state has led it to exhibit characteristics of both the Northern and Southern regions of the United States.

The new intro (twice replaced by User:Gardez Bien to the present form) reads as follows:

Maryland (IPA: [ˈmæ.ɹɪ.lənd]) is the owner of the land donated to create the United States Capital, Washington, D.C.. The State of Maryland has a very lucrative business climate. In particular Maryland is very well endowed in the Life Sciences. Maryland is the epicenter for Biotechnology in the Mid-Atlantic Region. As of 2005 it is the second wealthiest state in the nation. The State of Maryland is considered a Mid-Atlantic state located on the East Coast of the United States and is classified by the U.S. Census Bureau as a South-Atlantic state. It was the seventh state to ratify the United States Constitution, and is nicknamed the Old Line State and the Free State. Its history as a border state has led it to exhibit characteristics of both the Northern and Southern regions of the United States.

To avoid a revert war, please cast your vote as to which you would prefer (original or new).

Original: The intro should reflect what a reader unfamiliar with the state will want to see. The fact that part of Maryland became the District of Columbia is by no means the most important thing about the state. Much of this information is useful but doesn't belong in the opening, especially the POV issues and citeless statistics. Also, please see this user's recent contributions, as he's been editing at least two other articles to include the DC-sourcing fact in their introductions (though several have been reverted) Jkatzen 05:04, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Original: Gardez Bien's edits are not constructive or competent, and have no sense of the appropriate weight to give to information. Postdlf 14:23, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Original: I just stumbled across the article by chance and my first thought was 'Wow, what a bad intro'. The fact that Maryland is a US state should be more important than the fact that the DC is on former Maryland territory and therefore put first. Also, I consider the original intro to be much more elegant and concise. Blur4760 15:45, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Original: To line up better with the other state articles. I personally think Minnesota's intro is really good. -Ravedave ^{(help name my baby)} 15:51, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Original: I attempted a compromise a few days ago, not deleting the DC l;and stuff, but moving it into Maryland History, where I believe it fits better, but it was reverted right back to how it was. Every other U.S. state article starts with a description of the state, population, entry to the union, basic stuff! This article needs to reflect the standards that all of the other state articles have!

-Strongbad1982 ^{10:54, 25 October 2006 (MST)}

Original: The land grant to form Washington DC should be listed in the History section. Also, the second paragraph needs to be DELETED COMPLETELY. The statement "Maryland has the sole distinction amongst states as the donor of the land holding the United States capital, Washington, D.C." is blatantly false. BOTH Maryland and Virginia granted land to form the new capital in 1790. It wasn't until 1847 that the capital city was changed and the Virginia part of the grant was given back to Virginia to end up as Arlington. The further claim that "There has been recent talk of giving the land back to Maryland because of a push for D.C. voting rights." is also spurious. The reference is a link to an article regarding the DC Voting Rights Act, not to a consideration of re-incorporating DC back into MD. Having lived in humid, subtropical :) MD & Northern VA for 31 of 42 years, I don't recall the topic ever being one that had gained enough support to be newsworthy. BBODO 18:33, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

History

"This proved a problem, because the northern boundary would put Philadelphia, the major city in Pennsylvania, within Maryland." This is not what proved a problem. What proved a problem is that Penn insisted on getting access to the Chesapeake, and wouldn't concede the boundary set out in the Calvert charter. That New Castle was listed in Penn's charter only confused the issue to Penn's advantage; that city was farther south than was marked, and was only included to preserve the York territory claim, not to grant Penn more land. If Philly was established when Penn was given the charter (~1682), then it was "uninhabited" land as far as concerns the language in Calvert's charter (~1632). Smallvoices 21:45, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

MY Opinion:

    I clearly belive that Maryland/Virginia are southern states!

Many People object to the idea of Virginia and Maryland being southern. Im from Maryland so I know. I hate it when people that don't know me come in my face with all that "yankee" crap...i aint no yankee...im myself! And I absolutly HATE when people say that VA an MD are rude, inconciterate, uneducated, boring, bad drivers. Im fun, nice, and filled with GREAT hospitality.

Next Subject: Civil war/M&D line.

    If everyone knows that MD and VA are BELOW the Mason Dixon Line... why do some people feel the need to say that MD and VA are Northern????

It's quite -how can i say- IDIOTIC! Yes, folks, I know that the MDL was not made to divide the north and the south, but It's pretty usefull to divide the two. Doncha think???...About the civil war...VA was apart of the confeds...i can't lie, BUT MD was FORSED to become apart of the union and most of the people wanted to be with the feds.(yuddah im sayin)...So anyways, like i was sayin, VA & MD are natrually South.

Subject 3: MD.

    Everyone knows that MD is not like the rest of the southern states-no accent(mostly), not many confed. flags, has northern-like cities, bad traffic etc.- but it is still SOUTHERN.

I mean dang, like many other southern states, we take pride in are lil southerness, we sometimes act a lil country, and we still TALK diffrent from the north...esspecially Dc/B-more area. CUT US SOME SLACK!

Final Subject: Overall.

    Over all, Maryland and Virginia are southern!

They have many southern charms too. Infact, we have great hospitaliy too! Don't worry, be happy. Even if your mad, you HAVE TO admit that maryland and virginia are atleast a TAD BIT southern. YEs, YEs, YEs, we do have many qualities like the north(aka bad traffic...lol), But you must admit(if youve been too maryland and virginia...NOT B-MORE or DC)that it is southern in some areas!

ps. dont post nasty negitive comments about Virginia or Maryland..okedoke allipokey...lolz

ps no 2. IF you ask a man at a gas station in Southern, MD.... you'll know that chu in the south. - Footballchik

Edits by Gardez Bien

Just as discussion has been opened on the pages for Montgomery and Prince George's Counties, this is yet another discussion for the edits by Gardez Bien. I agreed with Gardez Bien's information provided via his earlier edits, but completely disagree with Gardez Bien's complete reversion of my edit on 27 November 2006. The reasoning provided for the complete reversion:

• "Intro should not be all about Geography but unique"

My version was hardly all about geography: it had a sentence touching upon its Civil War history as well as some information on its population and economy.

• "Important highlights of states past present and future"

Gardez Bien's reversion does not provide any additional information regarding the future and picks and chooses among traits that I do not personally find to be all-that important as far as Maryland goes. I would sooner highlight Maryland's federal industries rather than its life science industries.

• "Some info was totally irreleant."

The information I had provided was the exact same information that was previously in the article -- I did not add anything new and in fact preserved all of what was initially provided. My post on Gardez Bien's talk page -- prior to his reversion -- indicated to open discussion before another reversion (there have been revert wars beginning on the two County pages); but he did not do so. Therefore I am reverting his edit again until proper reasoning can be provided and/or consensus is reached on this issue. My reversion will at last address the spelling I errors that I had fixed, which Gardez Bien's reversion brought back (if you're going to revert, at least fix your errors!). I invite other users to please lend their viewpoints. --Thisisbossi 11:42, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm getting the sense of a double standard for Maryland here. Why is Maryland the focus of this brigade when other state intros are equivalent? I’ve avoided posting in these discussions because it seems you guys are reluctant to seeing the truth and now I have to write a book to get my point across. Even still you will believe what you want to because of personal preference or you don’t “feel it belongs”. Most of all I’m sure you could care less about the state itself otherwise you wouldn’t object. But you want an answer so here it is...

If you think the intro to the Maryland page needs a rework then you have your work cut out for you because you’re going to have to change just about every other state. Case in point, this is the last paragraph from the Commonwealth of Virginia intro,

"Virginia is known as the "Mother of Presidents", because it is the birthplace of eight U.S. presidents (George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, William Henry Harrison, John Tyler, Zachary Taylor, and Woodrow Wilson), more than any other state. Most of the United States' early presidents were from the state. Virginia has also been known as the "Mother of States", because portions of the original Colony subsequently became Kentucky, Indiana, Illinois, and West Virginia as well as some portions of Ohio."

How is that anymore relevant than proclaiming "Maryland donated the land for Washington, D.C."? Doesn't talk about presidents from decades past and ceding portions of land belong in the History section according to you?

Not convinced? Here’s part of the intro from the State of Wisconsin, this should put your economic fears to rest,

Wisconsin's rural economy was originally based farming (especially dairy), mining, and lumbering. In the 20th century tourism became important, and many people living on former farms commuted to jobs elsewhere. Large-scale industrialization began in the late 19th century in the southeast of the state, with the city of Milwaukee as its major center. In recent decades, service industries, especially medicine and education, have become dominant. Wisconsin's landscape, largely shaped by the Wisconsin glaciation of the last Ice Age, makes the state popular for both tourism and many forms of outdoor recreation.

In previous version they were proclaiming fur trade!!! But it's a sin to proclaim the life sciences which has become the foremost important industry in Maryland right now?

Didn’t get the message? Try the Commonwealth of Massachusetts,

During the 19th century, Massachusetts transformed itself from a mainly agricultural economy to a manufacturing one, making use of its many rivers for power to operate factories for shoes, furniture, and clothing. Its economy declined in the early twentieth century when industry moved south in search of cheaper labor. A revitalization came in the 1970s when, nourished by the graduates of the area's many elite institutions of higher education, the Boston suburbs (particularly those around Route 128) became home to dozens of high-technology companies. Massachusetts' colleges and universities, as well as its technology sectors, continue to thrive.

The state is also considered a haven for progressive, liberal thought and often sends political candidates to the national scene, however, the four most recent presidential aspirants, Ted Kennedy, Michael Dukakis, Paul Tsongas, and John Kerry, were all unsuccessful. . Massachusetts was the home state of US Presidents John Adams, John Quincy Adams, Calvin Coolidge, and John F. Kennedy, and the birth state of George H. W. Bush.

As of 2006, Massachusetts is the only state in the union to legalize marriage of gay and lesbian couples.

Must I continue? It should be clear by now.

Thisisbossi said

• My version was hardly all about geography: it had a sentence touching upon its Civil War history as well as some information on its population and economy.

This is what you left posted in the intro

"Maryland (IPA: [ˈmæ.ɹɪ.lənd]), nicknamed the Old Line State and the Free State, is located along the East Coast of the US. Historically a border state, it exhibits characteristics of both the Northern and Southern regions of the United States. Consequently, it can be considered both a Mid-Atlantic state and a South-Atlantic state.

Maryland comprises a mountainous western panhandle, a fertile coastal plain, and a central region. Chesapeake Bay is largely within the confines of the state. The broad central region includes a stretch of the eastern Megalopolis: an entirely metropolitan region stretching from Northern Virginia to Massachusetts that contains over 50 million people."

Thisisbossi version above is entirely about Geography, which sould go in the Geography section. The portion about Maryland being part of a Megalopolis is totally irrelevant. It is neither important nor does it define anything unique about the state. Civil war info belongs in the history section as well. Furthermore you would have to include the text in the intro of every state that is part of the Megalopolis. Why would you put it in with only Maryland?

Thisisbossi said

• Gardez Bien's reversion does not provide any additional information regarding the future and picks and chooses among traits that I do not personally find to be all-that important as far as Maryland goes. I would sooner highlight Maryland's federal industries rather than its life science industries.

If you feel the Life Sciences Industry in Maryland is extraneous, then no offense but you don't know squat about Maryland. The federal government’s role is confined to the capital region and even then they are not as dependent on the federal government as other parts of the D.C. region. The federal government also has ver over life sciences?

On the other hand, the life sciences stretches across the entire state, no other industry gets such special treatment and incentives. Bio parks, incubators, drug manufacturing plants, stem cell research funds, organizations, institutions, EXCLUSIVELY FOR THE LIFE SCIENCES INDUSTRY. Right now the Life Sciences is Maryland’s crown jewel industry and they have put more focus on it than any other. It is very much part of Maryland's past, present and FUTURE.

Thisisbossi said

• The information I had provided was the exact same information that was previously in the article -- I did not add anything new and in fact preserved all of what was initially provided. My post on Gardez Bien's talk page -- prior to his reversion -- indicated to open discussion before another reversion (there have been revert wars beginning on the two County pages); but he did not do so. Therefore I am reverting his edit again until proper reasoning can be provided and/or consensus is reached on this issue. My reversion will at last address the spelling I errors that I had fixed, which Gardez Bien's reversion brought back (if you're going to revert, at least fix your errors!).

I found a grammatical error in what you just said, should I help you correct it? Not only that but my revised (by you) paragraph about life sciences (that is so neatly hidden and tucked away in the economy section) doesn't make much sense. What aforementioned "institutions and agencies" are you referring to? I still stand by the first two paragraphs of the intro having irrelevant data at his point especially the part about it being a Megalopolis.

Overall the intro for Maryland has turned weak and geography heavy, the intro should have important highlights that are unique to the state. Donating the land for the Capital of the United States is a fact no other state can claim and very much defines the state and that region. Withoout that fact things would be drastically different. I'm also surprised how many people forget or don't know this fact so because of that alone it is totally relevant in the intro. Any other state in the world would not leave out that kind of information.

Can I ask a question? Why does the paragraph on donating the land bother all of you so much? Please give valid non generalized, impersonal reasons than "I don't like it".

I'm sorry if my info was too factual. If you don't like Maryland's intro get started on changing all 50 states, the District and the territories.

I enjoyed the conversation Gardez Bien 01:46, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your response and for your excellent points -- which is all I had really wanted. I will now leave my hands off this issue and, with the above information for consideration, leave others to modify as they see fit. --Thisisbossi 02:23, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

New Sports section added to updated Wikipedia:WikiProject U.S. states format

The Wikipedia:WikiProject U.S. states format has been updated to include a new Sports section, that covers collegiate sports, amateur sports, and non-team sports (such as hunting and fishing). Please feel free to add this new heading, and supply information about sports in Maryland. Please see South_carolina#Sports_in_South_Carolina as an example. NorCalHistory 16:29, 9 December 2006 (UTC)