Talk:Barghawata

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 28 August 2019 and 12 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: Veroonikka99.

WP:ERA

This edit established the usage of the page as BC/AD. Kindly maintain it consistently, pending a new consensus to the contrary. (That said, only the very first date on the page needs to be labelled so that we know we're not talking about AH dating. The rest don't need a label at all.) — LlywelynII 01:46, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

Origin of the Barghawata

The Barghawata unequivocally claimed Israelite descent, this claim is also supported by most (see below) scholars today. The claim that they were of Berber descent is a fringe view, at best some scholars consider them as Judeo-Berbers. (talk) 07:12, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Some Berber tribes, like the Baragwata in northwest Africa, claimed descent from the Israelite of Simeon (Shimon). https://books.google.fr/books?id=keD9z1XWuNwC&pg=PA281

Al Bakri atribuye la denominación de Tarifa a Tarif ibn Salih al-Isra'ili, fundator de la herejía de los bargawatas en el Norte de Africa hacia al año 752. Este personaje se consideraba descendiente de Simeon, vastago de Jacob, hijo de Isaac. https://books.google.fr/books?id=wfLxgo41LioC&pg=PA129

The fact that the Barghawati ambassador himself claims this as their sacred genealogy, combined with the other names of their leaders such as Yunus (Jonah) and al-Yasa’, or Alisha’ (Elisha), certainly makes Slousch’s (1910) argument about the ‘Jewish connection’ seem more plausible. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13629380601099484?src=recsys&journalCode=fnas20

The first source is unreliable for this article.

The second is a misrepresentation. The source says that, "Al Bakri attributes the name of Tarifa to Tarif ibn Salih al-Isra'ili, founder of the heresy of the Bargawatas in North Africa around 752. This character considered himself a descendant of Simeon, the offspring of Jacob, son of Isaac." So It's al-Bakri's claim not the author's and the claim is just about the founder not the tribe as a whole.

Again a misrepresentaion of the source. Why you didn't use all the note? "However, this geneal-ogy—precisely because it is a sacred genealogy should be understood as a way of giving legitimacy to their line. Since the Jewish presence in that part of North Africa was so ancient and deeply rooted, we can understand the Barghawata’s familiarity with the names, and perhaps with some of the rituals of theJewish residents, without postulating a genetic relationship between the beliefs of the Barghawata and those of Maghribi Jews."

And why are you removing the Encylopaedia of islam? Why should we use your misrepresentions and not the Encylopaedia of islam?

And why are you claiming in the article that they were an ethnoreligious group. Is this your theory? or what?

The claim that they were of Berber descent is a fringe view, at best some scholars consider them as Judeo-Berbers. Are you calling the Encyclopaedia of islam, Encyclopédie berbère, Studies in West African Islamic History, etc and all other secondary reliable sources, fringe. I'm sorry but you are the one who's pushing a fringe view and misrepresenting the views of other sources.

-TheseusHeLl (talk) 07:27, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

The Encylopaedia of Islam is the work of one scholar, it does not represent the scholarly consensus concerning the Barghawata. Why are you removing reliable sources to push your berberist agenda? Nobody speaks Berber in the Chaouia region and the tribes there either claim Arab or Jewish descent. --Afer Ephraimite (talk) 07:53, 15 June 2020 (UTC)