Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Schwarze Kapelle

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus verging on keep. Daniel (talk) 03:36, 9 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Schwarze Kapelle

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I am concerned we may be dealing with a WP:HOAX, perhaps not intentional, but still a WP:TNT-able mess. First. This article about an alleged German WWII conspiracy group doesn't have a German Wikipedia article (one was deleted in 2005 and never recreated since: [1] which is a major WP:REDFLAG). Second, most of the article is not properly sourced, and the current sources appear very weak OR don't mention the topic (for example, Shirer's book is certainly reliable, but it does not seem to mention "Schwarze Kapelle" at all [2]). I couldn't locate a single shciolary paper (GScholar) dealing with this topic. It is mention in passing in some books, but none of the books I see is particularly reliable. Now, some digging reveles the existence of a movie (The Black Chapel, Geheimaktion schwarze Kapelle a European 1959 political thriller film based on the novel Die schwarze Kapelle by Olav Herfeldt. What I am worried here is that some amateur historian confused that novel for a fact, and that error got repeated in some later works. Now, granted, I can find supposedly reliable historians like Bernard Wasserstein mentioning this organization briefly in their books (ex. [3]) but again, I am majorly concerned that no such book cites a reliable source, and no academic, peer reviewed journal article discusses it at any length. In other words, the topic has dubious notability but worse, it may be a hoax or a mistake that has been repeated by misled historians here and there. Note also that a number of books cite Herfeldt's work [4] despite it being described as a novel. Strangely enough, our article doesn't even mention him or his work. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:26, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:26, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Germany-related deletion discussions. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:26, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Not a hoax. The The Oxford Companion to World War II does indeed have an entry for the organisation. References exist [5] Doesn't have an article in the de.wikipedia.org, but it is red linked there. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:54, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Hawkeye7, The book you cite seems to be a reprint of the novel by Herfeldt so I don't think it is a reliable reference. Does Wikipedia Library provide access to 'The Oxford Companion to World War II'? If you can access it, what references does it cite and who is the author of that entry? The topic may be notable, but I am concerned that our article may be full of errors and could be based on some fictional version of the events rather than on whats historians say. (Btw, I got access to Bodyguard of Lies and it does seem to mention this term, but I can't figure out what sources that account is based on. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:04, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - @Hawkeye7: as Piotr mentions, that's the novel. It's a work of fiction, not a reliable source. Also what I am worried here is that some amateur historian confused that novel for a fact oh geez it's H-45 all over again... - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 06:20, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, not a HOAX, but poorly/unreliably referenced, requires a rewrite based on RS which there seem to be plenty of, even if only passing mentions. Mztourist (talk) 06:48, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that the entire point of this nomination is that those "plenty of RS" appear to spawn from the fictional novel? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 07:00, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just going on a quick Google Books search which seems to throw up a lot of different titles referring to Schwarze Kapelle, I haven't looked into whether or not they're each based on the novel. Mztourist (talk) 07:17, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, there are quite a few mentions, but it would be very nice if we could show that this concept can be traced to a reliable scholarly source or at least a verifiable historical document (although that would be a bit ORish). I remain concerned that the oldest account of this, cited, is Herfeldt. Now, maybe the description of his work is not correct and it is not a novel (or maybe it is part novel and part research?), or such. German Wikipedia article about the movie based on his novel has an unreferenced claim that his novel was based on some 'report' or such. Bottom line, we need reliable sources here, and it would be great if we could find something predating the novel. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:24, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment see https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=%22Black+Orchestra%22+Germany&btnG= for Google Scholar search results for "Black Orchestra" plus Germany. Buckshot06 (talk) 07:33, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- That's a pretty bad search, only a single result in the first page might be relevant: [6].--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:42, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep There was certainly organised opposition by aristocrats such as von Stauffenberg and the idea that this was a hoax seems absurd. Perhaps the objection is just to the title "Schwarze Kapelle" but that certainly has some currency now. Naturally, the best sources will be in German – books such as Rote Kapellen – Kreisauer Kreise – Schwarze Kapellen. This cites Jörg Wollenberg:
Dabei konnten wir auf eine Erkenntnis zurückgreifen, die der Bremer Historiker und Pädagogikwissenschaftler Jörg Wollenberg schon 1994 mitgeteilt hat: Die Gestapo stilisierte nicht nur die Freundeskreise um die Ehepaare Schulze-Boysen und Harnack zur »Roten Kapelle«, sondern gab auch der »Schwarzen Kapelle« der Oppositionsgruppe in der Wehrmacht-Abwehr ihren Namen.
Wollenberg was a professional historian, not an amateur. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:20, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Andrew Davidson, It would be good to see who is cited by Wollenberg. As I noted above, professional historians can make errors too. Did you find any reference to the topic that predates the fictional account by Herfeldt from c. 1958-1960? [7]? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:32, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - If Piotrus wishes to conduct more research into their revisionist theory, they should please do so elsewhere and let us know when their work is published. My !vote stands. Andrew🐉(talk) 11:05, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting to enable further analysis of the sources and development of consensus regarding their reliability.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Jack Frost (talk) 09:28, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep There was a board game made with the name, if that matters -- https://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/156858/black-orchestra Durindaljb (talk) 21:33, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Durindaljb, Interesting find, but how does this justify a keep vote rather than a comment? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:21, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - I have added this information to the article. Perhaps the board game should have its own entry, but it might not be that prominent. It looks like at least 7,000 copies exist. Perhaps 7,000 is not many copies compared to other board games mentioned in wikipedia or perhaps the 7,000 number is low. Durindaljb (talk) 08:51, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    - Durindaljb, I am pretty sure that board games does not pass GNG. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:20, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      - The board game itself is notable as I immediately find 40+ reviews. It certainly demonstrates the notability of the general concept. Andrew🐉(talk) 11:05, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - I checked the articles on all the purported members listed in the Schwarze Kapelle article and, except as "See also", there is only one, Carl-Heinrich von Stülpnagel, that mentions Schwarze Kapelle, but the mention has no citation – the article German resistance to Nazism does not mention Schwarze Kapelle, except as "See also" – while many of the officers listed in the Schwarze Kapelle were involved in anti-Nazi plots, such as the Oster Conspiracy, none of them were in the Schwarze Kapelle - there does not appear to be any independent confirmation that Schwarze Kapelle existed outside of fiction - cheers, Epinoia (talk) 17:16, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 21:33, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.